Used Brush Prices are Amazingly High

[texaninkc]

I wonder if there's another phenomenon going on here?

Having watched BST for a while, I really don't see it as a straight unfettered market, and it doesn't seem to be the kind of place where buyers go for the cheapest they can get and haggle hard.

Instead, I see it as being more community-centric, with buyers actually wanting to pay a decent price to their fellow community members rather than wanting to keep prices down the way they might do on various famous auction sites.

I see a lot of that attitude around the site in general - generous PIFs, selfless help, and so on. I would trust a B&B member selling something on BST far more than I'd trust an unknown person somewhere else, and I'd pay a higher price in return for that trust.

I think that helps to develop the community spirit, and I think it helps in practical terms too. We're always encouraging each other to buy new stuff and try it, and suggesting that a sale on BST won't lose too much money if it doesn't work out. And it pays us to make that happen - the more people feel confident about getting a decent price on BST, the more they'll buy things and give us reviews of it, and the more we'll all learn.

Any of that make sense?

You said it better than I did!

 

[ChiefBroom]

The market is what it is. I am not a huge believer in rational actors, but I have some rationalizations to share. These are for the B/S/T here: I avoid trying to explain ebay.

First, well-made brushes have historically demonstrated lifespans running into decades. Even after the hair has deteriorated, the handle may be worth re-knotting. The longer a good lasts, the longer its depreciation period ought to be. Both buyers and sellers are aware of that, or ought to be.

Beyond that there is some extra value in buying a used brush vs ordering a new one from a vendor. Handmade brushes are like special little snowflakes, and buying a new brush can be a gamble with whatever gods rule QC. On the other hand a good B/S/T posting will reveal any flaws and display the knot shape and density accurately. This is something most vendors cannot or will not do (with TSS as a shining exception). Together these factors reduce uncertainty for the buyer, which makes buyers more willing to unbelt.

In the special case of a boar brush, a used brush may already be broken in. If so it saves the buyer labor, and is arguably better than a new brush.

+1 more

I actually think I paid a small premium over the new price of a Simpson 58 recently based on the fact the knot was obviously (and acknowledged to be) extraordinary and I'd bought brushes from the seller (who was liquidating due to special circumstances) on BST previously.

 

[Saxman11290]

Larry over at Whipped Dog had a brush dog deal on his Facebook page this morning, a Silvertip (not specified what make) for $22, s/h included for the first person to claim it.

I claimed it first, for what seems like a crazy deal in a high re-sale value brush market. I've been looking to purchase a Silvertip as my next brush, so this seemed like a deal that was too good to be true. So what's Larry's angle? Why can he sell a brush for $22 in this market? I'll let you know how it is once I get it, btw.

 

[stryker4526]

Larry over at Whipped Dog had a brush dog deal on his Facebook page this morning, a Silvertip (not specified what make) for $22, s/h included for the first person to claim it.

I claimed it first, for what seems like a crazy deal in a high re-sale value brush market. I've been looking to purchase a Silvertip as my next brush, so this seemed like a deal that was too good to be true. So what's Larry's angle? Why can he sell a brush for $22 in this market? I'll let you know how it is once I get it, btw.

Simple: he isn't a boutique dealer that overcharges for his products.
Enjoy the silvertip, I know I enjoy mine.

 

[global_dev]

Some brushes or knots in the brush you just can't obtain anymore new. And they are still desirable.

 

[ChiefBroom]

Simple: he isn't a boutique dealer that overcharges for his products.

It might not be quite that simple.

It would be interesting to know more about the cost structures and margins connected to higher-priced brushes.

In any case someone has to be willing to pay for them. And I'd prefer to believe that not everyone who does is simply stupid.

I don't own a Whipped Dog brush, but I'm quite sure they offer great value.

 

[stryker4526]

It might not be quite that simple.

It would be interesting to know more about the cost structures and margins connected to higher-priced brushes.

In any case someone has to be willing to pay for them. And I'd prefer to believe that not everyone who does is simply stupid.

I don't own a Whipped Dog brush, but I'm quite sure they offer great value.

It might be, and probably is, a bit more complicated than that. However, I have a hard time believing that the silvertips from badgers from a certain region are any better or worse than the silvertips from badgers from another region, etc.. I do think a lot of the cost is simply brand-association with the boutique brand names. That's not to say people are stupid for purchasing them. Hell, as a hobbyist or collector I completely understand wanting to collect as many different kinds of whatever you're collecting as possible.

 

[ChiefBroom]

It might be, and probably is, a bit more complicated than that. However, I have a hard time believing that the silvertips from badgers from a certain region are any better or worse than the silvertips from badgers from another region, etc.. I do think a lot of the cost is simply brand-association with the boutique brand names. That's not to say people are stupid for purchasing them. Hell, as a hobbyist or collector I completely understand wanting to collect as many different kinds of whatever you're collecting as possible.

Your point was well taken. The general subject of badger brush pricing is a mystery to me. No doubt about it, the diminishing-returns curve gets very, very steep somewhere around $100 (if not considerably less). But that's true about a lot of things. The big question is what's real and what's imaginary. I have a slew of recently acquired brushes. So far there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between price (what I paid) and preference. Of course, that isn't necessarily based on any kind of superiority other than price (and its connection to perceived value). Our minds can play tricks on us about such things. And my wife possesses neither the patience nor good humor to assist in conducting blinded tests.

 

[Antique Hoosier]

Gosh, I'd bet I've purchased 30 plus used brushes on the BST since 2006

 

[stryker4526]

Your point was well taken. The general subject of badger brush pricing is a mystery to me. No doubt about it, the diminishing-returns curve gets very, very steep somewhere around $100 (if not considerably less). But that's true about a lot of things. The big question is what's real and what's imaginary. I have a slew of recently acquired brushes. So far there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between price (what I paid) and preference. Of course, that isn't necessarily based on any kind of superiority other than price (and its connection to perceived value). Our minds can play tricks on us about such things. And my wife possesses neither the patience nor good humor to assist in conducting blinded tests.

That's actually a well-documented phenomenon among those who purchase things. The higher the price, the higher the likelihood that someone will perceive it as better than something lower cost. It's part of how we mentally try to justify paying the higher price. The exact name of this psychological phenomenon escapes me at the moment, but part of it at least is, indeed, all in your (and everyone's) head and connected to the purchase price.

 

[shave/brush]

I don't get it. I'd happily pay the extra 10-30% to have a new brush that I knew someone hadn't been letting the cat play with in his litter box.

I think I would be afraid of "contamination". Maybe shampoo can take care of that. Maybe.! I guess everyone has their own view. I would spend the little extra and get it new.

 

[brucered]

I don't get it. I'd happily pay the extra 10-30% to have a new brush that I knew someone hadn't been letting the cat play with in his litter box.

really, do you honestly think that's what we do with our shave brushes?

I use mine to tickle the dogs belly

 

[ChiefBroom]

That's actually a well-documented phenomenon among those who purchase things. The higher the price, the higher the likelihood that someone will perceive it as better than something lower cost. It's part of how we mentally try to justify paying the higher price. The exact name of this psychological phenomenon escapes me at the moment, but part of it at least is, indeed, all in your (and everyone's) head and connected to the purchase price.

I know that's true. On the other hand, I have a very cool vintage handle that has a TGN silvertip knot. I'm quite sure I wouldn't like it any better if I'd paid $300 for it. Three of my favorite brushes were purchased at prices near the middle of the range. The differences are subtle, but they're unmistakable standouts, and I'm sure I'd prefer them no less had they been gifts such that I had nothing to justify.

The last thing I do every single night I'm home is go to my brush cabinet and choose the one I'll use the next morning; then I place it on the counter by the sink where I shave. Who knows what goes on sub-consciously, but I can swear that not once in making the choice has a thought crossed my mind about what I paid for a brush.

 

[stryker4526]

I know that's true. On the other hand, I have a very cool vintage handle that has a TGN silvertip knot. I'm quite sure I wouldn't like it any better if I'd paid $300 for it. Three of my favorite brushes were purchased at prices near the middle of the range. The differences are subtle, but they're unmistakable standouts, and I'm sure I'd prefer them no less had they been gifts such that I had nothing to justify.

The last thing I do every single night I'm home is go to my brush cabinet and choose the one I'll use the next morning; then I place it on the counter by the sink where I shave. Who knows what goes on sub-consciously, but I can swear that not once in making the choice has a thought crossed my mind about what I paid for a brush.

Well it's certainly not a hard and fast rule that you will prefer more the things you paid more for, just that you will tend to (generic you here, not you specifically). The whole thing about the phenomenon is that it's subconscious, as well. You might not actively take price into consideration when you choose the brushes you prefer or what you'll use next, but subconsciously it does influence how you feel about the brushes (or any good).

I remembered the name of it, too. Post-purchase rationalization, aka Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[ChiefBroom]

Well it's certainly not a hard and fast rule that you will prefer more the things you paid more for, just that you will tend to (generic you here, not you specifically). The whole thing about the phenomenon is that it's subconscious, as well. You might not actively take price into consideration when you choose the brushes you prefer or what you'll use next, but subconsciously it does influence how you feel about the brushes (or any good).

I remembered the name of it, too. Post-purchase rationalization, aka Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome.

I wonder if anyone has ever explored the possibility of an inverse rule. That is, might buyer's of lesser priced products tend to rationalize their choices by de-valuing higher priced products?

 

[global_dev]

I wonder if anyone has ever explored the possibility of an inverse rule. That is, might buyer's of lesser priced products tend to rationalize their choices by de-valuing higher priced products?

very interesting concept, my favorite brushes tend to be in the middle price wise.. somewhere in the $150 range.. i think it's the density driving it

 

[AABCDS]

I think you're contradicting yourself here. First you say that used brush prices are too high:

...
Why are people paying 70-90% of retail for a used brush on both BST and ebay?
...

Then you say that one should just buy it new, sight-unseen because then you can just sell it for a small loss meaning that you're recommending the new owner sell it for close to the new price.

...
On the plus side, it seems that a brush is a fairly safe thing to spend a lot on sight-unseen. If you don't like it, consider the small depreciation to be the cost of renting it, and sell it.

So which is it, sell high or sell low?

 

[MSstrahan]

I think you're contradicting yourself here. First you say that used brush prices are too high:

Then you say that one should just buy it new, sight-unseen because then you can just sell it for a small loss meaning that you're recommending the new owner sell it for close to the new price.

So which is it, sell high or sell low?

Sell it for what you can get for it. It's a free market. I just don't understand the market, and find it worth discussing.

The cat in the litter box comment was facetious, but cats and kids do the darndest things, and some people's sinks are pretty close to their toilets. If it only costs $20-40 more on a high end brush for a new one, get the new one. On the other hand, if I could save 40% or more on the used one, then I'd get the used one. I'm no germophobe.

I once saved $300 on the price of a $150k house I was having built because I didn't want to spend it on an electrical outlet in the floor of a large living room. The result was I had nowhere to plug in a table lamp when I pulled the furniture away from the walls towards the middle of the large room. Eleven years ago, I saved a few hundred on my 2002 truck by not ordering the keyless entry system. Both were stupid decisions. Those items would have later been worth every penny to me, especially since I financed both purchases, and the monthly payment difference would have been negligible.

As for the strange desire to own something expensive, even when it's not really much better than a similar item that's cheaper, my wife is a psychologist. She's noticed that she gets more clients when she refuses to come down on her hourly rate. People seem to believe they get better care when they have to pay more for it. The clients she gets also do better. The debate is whether they do better because: a) the higher cost they are paying means they are more committed to their treatment or b) they believe they will do better because the higher cost leads them to think they are getting better treatment. I suspect that both a) and b) apply to her business and the business of high end brushes. You'll rarely see a person spend $180 on a brush and then say they hated their purchase and it led to worse results than they got from their cheapo brush.

As for the idea of spending more when buying off BST because you are supporting a kindred spirit, I don't think there's enough such altruistic people to support that market for long. I do get it, because my other hobby is car restoration, which is truly a community hobby, complete with shows and meets, where you actually meet people in person and become friends. I wouldn't haggle such a kindred spirit much, but I also wouldn't pay much more than my perception of value. I've learned to be frugal, not cheap. I'll spend good money on an item I want when I see value. I don't see much value in a used brush that is priced close to a new one I can buy online. A unique and discontinued one, maybe...

Finally, my Whipped Dog brush arrived today. It's my first silvertip. It is already softer, yet fuller/denser than anything I own, and the faux marble handle is really nice. I love how it feels, and am looking forward to shaving with it in the morning. Cost? $29, shipped. I hope this doesn't start a brush buying spree like my collectible razor buying spree. Probably not, because I equate brushes to a consumer good, and razors to a collectible good. Please oh please let me keep thinking that

 

[Lexbomb]

Ok, I may tick off some folks, but I gotta sound off. Why are people paying 70-90% of retail for a used brush on both BST and ebay? I'm not talking something classic, I'm talking about something you can order new from several websites today. Used brushes must have the highest resale value of any consumer good. It even seems that the higher priced brushes hold their value better, which is counter to how luxury goods usually behave. People who can afford them want to buy new. After all, if I can afford a $140 used brush, I'm sure I can spend $180 to get a new one.

I don't get it. I'd happily pay the extra 10-30% to have a new brush that I knew someone hadn't been letting the cat play with in his litter box. On the plus side, it seems that a brush is a fairly safe thing to spend a lot on sight-unseen. If you don't like it, consider the small depreciation to be the cost of renting it, and sell it.

What are you doing with your brushes man!? I will remember to never buy from you
I think the brush that amazes me most is the wee scot, it's a $35 brush that sells in seconds on the BST for $30, now I'm pretty tight with my money so if I could buy a $200 brush at $180 I'm saving myself the $20 but people are snapping up $5 saving so quick you can't believe it!

 

[takeshi]

It's a free market. I just don't understand the market, and find it worth discussing.

What's to get? Worth is always highly subjective on any topic. What one is willing to pay for any item -- new or used -- will vary. What one "gets" or "doesn't get" will vary. Buy what suits your preferences and budget. Others can and do have differing preferences and budgets. If you think used brush prices are "too high" (also subjective) then your preferences just don't jive with the market.

You said it yourself. It's a free market. Supply and demand drives prices. If you assume that your preferences are or should be universal then you'll constantly fail to "get" things. Are you thinking that having others explain their preference will change yours?

I also kinda get the argument about buying a broke in brush, except that it makes no sense that someone who spends the time and money involved in hobbiest level wet shaving wouldn't want to spend a bit more and get a brush to break in themselves. It would be part of the experience of ownership. After all, the brush will last you a lifetime, wouldn't you want it to be exclusively YOUR brush, that you broke in yourself?

It makes no sense to you. That doesn't mean that it makes no sense to others. It's a subjective matter. You can't assume that your preferences are universal no matter what the topic. Your posts are full of examples where your tunnel vision is what's preventing you from getting the things that you say that you don't get. Real life is full of countless examples where people don't share your preferences if you look and pay attention.

I prefer new brushes but I don't assume that everyone else does just because I do.

You'll rarely see a person spend $180 on a brush and then say they hated their purchase and it led to worse results than they got from their cheapo brush.

That definitely happens with any product but, again, people vary. Sweeping generalizations like that really don't have much practical use IMO. Do what works for you. My $150 brush is much better (another highly subjective word and the next person might not agree with me) than my $70 brush but price has nothing to do with it for me and I would have definietly BST'ed it if it didn't meet my needs/wants. Price is just price to me. There are certainly plenty of others who are very happy with less pricey brushes. Each person just needs to sort out preference, priority, budget, etc and find suitable solutions.

People can and do spend more on a pricier option and find that they don't prefer it, that it doesn't meet expectations, etc.