The Sudsy Soapery - Optimization Results, Review, Photos, Details

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Update on Sudsy Soapery with Decreased Optimum Three-Pass Total Mass

(Picture shows 5.5 oz. jar of soap, almost used up)

Update Overview: The Sudsy Soapery was originally added to the optimum lather table about two months ago (B&B URL), and since it was not added with its own thread, this update rectifies that situation and provides a thread for any future updates on Sudsy Soapery. While finishing my evaluation of L&L Grooming, I found that the shave with Sudsy Soapery matched well to previous results, but the total mass was too high and the soap produced slickness that was not as much as expected by the language that I used due to a shift in my standards. Through a few extra shaves with Sudsy Soapery, I ended up decreasing the optimum three-pass soap mass from 0.9 g to 0.8 g while leaving the water-to-soap ratio around 9.5. This change is reflected in the optimum lather table. I also updated the accompanying description for Sudsy Soapery. The rest of the review is largely unchanged, but I added details on ranking tests.

Purchase Date: November 9, 2016

Container: The amber plastic container has an outside diameter of 3.69 in., as measured with my digital caliper, and the black screw-on cap has a similar diameter. The inside diameter near the top of the jar is 3.26 in. The total height of the closed jar is about 1.59 in. The container is just big enough for the amount of soap that it comes with. My only complaint with the container is that the internal radius increases kind of sharply by about 5/32 in. through the transition from the top of the jar down towards the main lower region. Soap is, therefore, not all easily accessible to the brush.

Ingredients: Saponified Stearic Acid, Coconut Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Castor Oil, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Cocoa Butter, Theobroma Cocoa (Cocoa) Seed Butter, Kokum Butter, Garcinia Indica Seed Butter, Shea Butter, Butyrospermum Parkii, Lanolin Anhydrous, USP. with Clay, Kaolin [Rhassoul Clay, according to the website], Glycerin vegetable, USP, Sodium Lactate, Fragrance*, Bentonite Clay. *All Natural Essential Oil Blend

Appearance: Shiny, speckled tan or light brown

Scent: The scent is "subtle in nature", as described by the manufacturer, and my impression is that the natural sandalwood and myrrh scent is fine and light to the point that this soap could be an acceptable alternative for those wanting unscented soap

Hardness: Based on my limited experience, I'd say that this soap is softer than most

Loading and Building: Loading the soap is not an issue. Building lather with measured amounts of soap and water in a bowl reveals how sudsy—no pun intended—the lather begins, but with time and agitation, the bubbles become smaller and smaller and the lather builds in volume to an airy structure with uniform air cells and only a few noticeable bubbles. The lather has a matte finish, so the sheen is not good, and the lather behaves like foam, not like yogurt. Based on my timer results, the lather definitely takes less time to build compared to other soaps that I've tested.

Optimization Results with Exact Lathers: Twenty-five (25) daily shaves were conducted from June 28, 2017, to July 22, 2017, with total mass ranging from 8.0 g to 10.4 g and water-to-soap ratio ranging from 5 to 11. With increasing water-to-soap ratio from 5 to 11, slickness increased from "pretty good" to "good to very good", cushion decreased from "good or very good" to "not much", and post-shave decreased from "kind of dry" to "dry". The optimal total mass was found to be around 9.5 g to 10.4 g, and optimization narrowed down to deciding between water-to-soap ratios of about 9.5 and 10, with the former being chosen since the latter seemed to produce a lather that just seemed to be a little more airy with similar performance.

Ranking Results: Compared to L&L Grooming, the optimum lather for Sudsy Soapery has similar slickness, probably a little better at first, but the residual slickness is not as good, as evidenced during blade buffing. Cushion and post-shave were the real factors in placing Sudsy Soapery below L&L Grooming. Next-day testing also confirmed that Sudsy Soapery has similar slickness and cushion to B&M Latha, but post-shave seems a little less dry than B&M Latha and there isn't the overall irritation experienced with B&M Latha.

Optimum Lather Table

Performance Ranking	Soap/Cream	Soap/Cream Mass (g)	Water Mass (g)	Total Mass (g)	Water-to-Soap/Cream Ratio	Soap/Cream Price (USD)
1	Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap	1.2	10.8	12.0	9.00	0.09
2	L&L Grooming Unscented Shaving Soap	1.0	8.5	9.5	8.50	0.16
3	The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap	0.8	7.6	8.4	9.50	0.09
4	Barrister & Mann Latha Unscented Shaving Soap	1.0	8.0	9.0	8.00	0.09
5	Lisa's Natural Herbal Creations Sandalwood Wet Shave Soap	0.8	7.2	8.0	9.00	0.06

General Notes:

• As documented on August 27, 2017, soap/cream and moderately hard water masses were directly measured in a smooth lathering bowl, using a 0.1 g resolution scale, and lather was built using a dry synthetic brush, so as to make exact lather
• Based on slower three-pass shaves with blade buffing using a smooth chrome-plated DE safety razor and agreeable blades and blade exposures, water-to-soap/cream ratio was optimized to the nearest 0.5 value while total mass was simultaneously optimized as precisely as could be accomplished by varying soap/cream and water masses from day to day. Lather from inside the brush was used as much as possible in order to effectively eliminate the influence of the brush on total mass.
• Rankings were aided by revisiting previously determined optimums and comparing optimum lathers in sequential shaves
• Prices are current for the specific soaps and creams that were evaluated. Prices for similar offerings are used for scents that are no longer available.
• The table is sortable such that clicking on a column heading sorts the rows according to that column's data, and clicking on the column heading again reverses the sorting order. Product names are links to optimization result threads.

Ranking Notes:

1. Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap: Lather takes time to build up, developing into a lighter lather with a smooth consistency and a nice sheen. Slickness is mostly very good, but there is typically some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is okay, but lather lightness prevents cushion from being good. Post-shave is pretty good, but on the dry side.
2. L&L Grooming Unscented Shaving Soap: Lather takes time to build up, but it has some yogurt-like behavior and only a few small bubbles. Adhesion and application smoothness are pretty good or good. Slickness is okay to good, mostly good, with friction near the end of passes. Cushion is pretty good. Post-shave is good.
3. The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap: Lather builds faster than average. Sheen is not good because lather has more of a matte finish. Lather is noticeably airy with a uniform cell structure and foam-like behavior, as opposed to yogurt-like behavior, but there are only a few larger bubbles. Adhesion and application are okay, at best. Slickness is okay to good, mostly good, but there is significant friction at the end of passes and slickness seems to deteriorate with blade buffing due to a lack of residual slickness. Cushion is not much, and the lack of protection is noticeable. Post-shave is okay, but it is kind of dry.
4. Barrister & Mann Latha Unscented Shaving Soap: Lather is neither like yogurt nor creamy, but lather is uniform with respect to very small air cells. Lather does not have much adhesion to skin during application. Sheen is nice, but not brilliant. Slickness is mostly good with some very good moments, but there is some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is not much, although it is fine. Post-shave is kind of dry with some overall irritation.
5. Lisa's Natural Herbal Creations Sandalwood Wet Shave Soap: Lather is airy with uniformly tiny air cells and few visible small air bubbles. Sheen is okay, but not good or brilliant. Adhesion to skin is pretty good. Application is smooth enough, but not very smooth. Slickness is okay overall, with some good moments and virtually no stick-slip, but there is friction at times and near the end of passes. Cushion is okay, but it is not much. Post-shave is fairly dry with some irritation that probably corresponds with the irritation felt during and after application for the third pass.

 

[kingfisher]

Impressive. Thanks for all the work that went into this.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Impressive. Thanks for all the work that went into this.

You're welcome, Randall. I'm glad that you like it. I'm almost done updating Stirling. That will probably go up tomorrow. It's a similar issue regarding dropping the mass a little and updating the description. Then, on to optimizing MWF.

 

[Tokyospike]

Hats off. I think of you as a kind of natural wonder. Great stuff.

 

[Pedict]

A lot of work for one man's opinion of his soaps. I applaud your effort to be analytical about it.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Hats off. I think of you as a kind of natural wonder. Great stuff.

A lot of work for one man's opinion of his soaps. I applaud your effort to be analytical about it.

Thanks!

 

[Grundi]

Thank you for posting this, @ShavingByTheNumbers, and the other posts!! I'm learning a lot and appreciate the very detailed approach that you're taking (and the effort that you put into these)!!

I shaved with Sudsy Soapery White Sage & Lime this morning and the lather was more yogurty than airy. My tap water is much softer than yours (17 ppm, not sure what the equivalent mg/L is) and that would be a critical difference in the lather produced.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Thank you for posting this, @ShavingByTheNumbers, and the other posts!! I'm learning a lot and appreciate the very detailed approach that you're taking (and the effort that you put into these)!!

You're welcome, @Grundi. It's great that you are getting so much out of my optimization work! I love it! The effort might seem like a lot of work, but on a normal basis, the extra time involved is only a few extra minutes to measure masses before the shave and record the results after the shave. It adds up, of course. Most of the time involved is surely due to making pictures and posting results, so yeah, there is effort involved. It's rewarding, though, to draw a conclusion and move on to the next soap.

I shaved with Sudsy Soapery White Sage & Lime this morning and the lather was more yogurty than airy. My tap water is much softer than yours (17 ppm, not sure what the equivalent mg/L is) and that would be a critical difference in the lather produced.

I'm surprised that you got yogurt-like lather from Sudsy Soapery! I think that you're right about the cause being your soft water because Sudsy Soapery doesn't make yogurt-like lather with my average, moderately hard water. Even if soft or distilled water works better with a soap, which appears to be the case with Sudsy Soapery and might be the case for every soap, I still want to use water with an average water hardness to make the most usable table for others. I got the idea of making more than one table for different water hardnesses, which would be neat, but it would be beyond my patience for getting results. It already takes two to four weeks to get results for one soap and one water hardness. Another table would basically double the time. I'm still curious about using distilled water, but I'm afraid that if I use it and really like it, then I'd never go back to regular water again and my optimum lather table would be ruined.

 

[qVAMPIREp]

I have hard water which fluctuates seasonally like every city (160-240 mg/l) and I get yogurty lather every time using Sudsy Soapery. The ONLY possible way to get constant hardness is to use distilled water.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I have hard water which fluctuates seasonally like every city (160-240 mg/l) and I get yogurty lather every time using Sudsy Soapery. The ONLY possible way to get constant hardness is to use distilled water.

Hmm. Now I'm thinking that water hardness is not the issue. Three possible explanations come to mind:
(1) You and @Grundi are using less water for a thicker lather compared to my optimum with a water-to-soap ratio of 9.5.
(2) You guys have a different idea of yogurty lather compared to what I think is yogurty.
(3) The batch of Sudsy Soapery that I got produces more airy lather compared to the batches that you guys got.

What do you guys think? (I'm leaning most towards the third option.)

 

[qVAMPIREp]

I don't think it's #3. I've never seen an airy lather YouTube Video using Sudsy Soapery.

 

[UserNameTaken]

I also have hard water(224mg/l) and I get yogurty like lather too with Sudsy.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Well, if the soap is consistent, and water is not an issue, then it has to be #1 and/or #2, either you guys are using less water and making thicker lather and/or your perception of yogurty is different than mine. Right? I thought that my perception of yogurt-like behavior was normal, but maybe my standards are higher for calling a soap "yogurty". This is a good example of why ranking soaps against each other is more valuable than trusting what I or anyone else says about one particular soap. We may use different words to describe the same thing or peceive things a little differently, but when comparing soaps against each other, our rankings would probably be more alike than the words that we use to describe the soaps. Hey, this has happened already with me. I just updated the language for Sudsy Soapery because I disagreed a little with my earlier description of its slickness. I'm about to do the same for Stirling. The soaps are the same and the water-to-soap ratios are the same or effectively the same, and everything else about building the lather and shaving is the same here, but my perception shifted.

 

[qVAMPIREp]

Consider the case of egg whites. Same amount of egg white, water etc. mixed for 30 seconds creates a creamy mixture, beat for a few minutes longer creates a dry foam meringue. One is good for shaving the other one for razor burn.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Consider the case of egg whites. Same amount of egg white, water etc. mixed for 30 seconds creates a creamy mixture, beat for a few minutes longer creates a dry foam meringue. One is good for shaving the other one for razor burn.

That is a very good point. Thanks! I didn't think of that. Lather-building time matters. You're right. Maybe that's what the differences here can be chalked up to. What do you think about that, @Grundi and @UserNameTaken? Do you guys think that you might be using less water than me and/or that you perceive "yogurtiness" differently than I do?

I keep building lather "until equilibrium is reached" with my measured amounts of soap and water in a bowl, as I described in the thread referenced below the optimum lather table. That's fair to me. With respect to Sudsy Soapery, that soap starts very bubbly when I start building lather in the lathering bowl, brushing more and more soap off from the bottom of the bowl and incorporating it into the lather as swirling continues. Lather building continues until the lather doesn't appear to be changing with more agitation. L&L Grooming behaves very differently, starting with almost nothing and taking longer to build up slowly as the lather gets more aerated and reaches equilibrium. If I were to stop building lather for either soap prematurely, the lathers would be different, maybe even very different, from those used in my analyses.

 

[Grundi]

That is a very good point. Thanks! I didn't think of that. Lather-building time matters. You're right. Maybe that's what the differences here can be chalked up to. What do you think about that, @Grundi and @UserNameTaken? Do you guys think that you might be using less water than me and/or that you perceive "yogurtiness" differently than I do?

I keep building lather "until equilibrium is reached" with my measured amounts of soap and water in a bowl, as I described in the thread referenced below the optimum lather table. That's fair to me. With respect to Sudsy Soapery, that soap starts very bubbly when I start building lather in the lathering bowl, brushing more and more soap off from the bottom of the bowl and incorporating it into the lather as swirling continues. Lather building continues until the lather doesn't appear to be changing with more agitation. L&L Grooming behaves very differently, starting with almost nothing and taking longer to build up slowly as the lather gets more aerated and reaches equilibrium. If I were to stop building lather for either soap prematurely, the lathers would be different, maybe even very different, from those used in my analyses.

Whereas @qVAMPIREp chose #4 duration, I'm leaning toward #5 initial water content. I've had a couple of experiences where I started with too much water, the lather instantly foamed, and I could not get the lather to become dense. Once captured, the air remained in the structure due to the higher initial water content. I tend to start out with a damp but not dripping brush to load and only a couple of drops left in my mug from soaking my brush. As I build the lather, I introduce a few drops of water at a time. I've had consistent results across different soaps using this method.

 

[tclobaugh]

Whereas @qVAMPIREp chose #4 duration, I'm leaning toward #5 initial water content. I've had a couple of experiences where I started with too much water, the lather instantly foamed, and I could not get the lather to become dense. Once captured, the air remained in the structure due to the higher initial water content. I tend to start out with a damp but not dripping brush to load and only a couple of drops left in my mug from soaking my brush. As I build the lather, I introduce a few drops of water at a time. I've had consistent results across different soaps using this method.

+1. It may not even be total water content but how that water is introduced (all at once or a little at a time). I personally have found that different soaps perform really differently based on soap load and water used and how it's introduced. Temp of water can cause differences too. (Some soaps don't do as well with hotter water).

That's what is great about BnB - you can learn from others to help you get the most out of soap with less trial and error.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Whereas @qVAMPIREp chose #4 duration, I'm leaning toward #5 initial water content. I've had a couple of experiences where I started with too much water, the lather instantly foamed, and I could not get the lather to become dense. Once captured, the air remained in the structure due to the higher initial water content. I tend to start out with a damp but not dripping brush to load and only a couple of drops left in my mug from soaking my brush. As I build the lather, I introduce a few drops of water at a time. I've had consistent results across different soaps using this method.

+1. It may not even be total water content but how that water is introduced (all at once or a little at a time). I personally have found that different soaps perform really differently based on soap load and water used and how it's introduced. Temp of water can cause differences too. (Some soaps don't do as well with hotter water).

That's what is great about BnB - you can learn from others to help you get the most out of soap with less trial and error.

I haven't done a controlled study to test the difference between starting with all of the water in the bowl versus adding it slowly, but I hear what you guys are saying. Based on my past experience when doing stuff like that before making exact lathers with measured masses, I know what it's like to start with a thick lather and add water slowly. However, based on that same experience, I'm not convinced that there is any significant difference between adding water slowly versus starting with all of it at once as long as the lather is built to equilibrium with the exact same amounts of soap and room-temperature water using an initially dry synthetic brush. Maybe Sudsy Soapery is one of those sensitive soaps that has multiple equilibrium points, meaning that there are different results for the same amounts of soap and water depending on how the masses were mixed. I mix to equilibrium, but I guess that it's possible that I'd reach a different equilibrium if I added the same amount of water slowly. That's a frustrating thought. I don't like it. You know what? I'm going to have to study this, aren't I? I'll run a little experiment and get back to you guys soon.

 

[tclobaugh]

I haven't done a controlled study to test the difference between starting with all of the water in the bowl versus adding it slowly, but I hear what you guys are saying. Based on my past experience when doing stuff like that before making exact lathers with measured masses, I know what it's like to start with a thick lather and add water slowly. However, based on that same experience, I'm not convinced that there is any significant difference between adding water slowly versus starting with all of it at once as long as the lather is built to equilibrium with the exact same amounts of soap and room-temperature water using an initially dry synthetic brush. Maybe Sudsy Soapery is one of those sensitive soaps that has multiple equilibrium points, meaning that there are different results for the same amounts of soap and water depending on how the masses were mixed. I mix to equilibrium, but I guess that it's possible that I'd reach a different equilibrium if I added the same amount of water slowly. That's a frustrating thought. I don't like it. You know what? I'm going to have to study this, aren't I? I'll run a little experiment and get back to you guys soon.

Theoretically, I agree with you. But based on my experience, if I over hydrate a lather, I have a hard time getting it back to a good place, even when adding more soap, which should do the trick.

I've not got at this scientifically, like you have , however, so it could just be my mind making connections that aren't really there

 

[joeyboy]

I find it works best when I shave in the shower, as opposed to the sink post shower. Due to that I am getting much more water. I also go at with the brush and soap lather is coming out of the jar quite a bit. I use this with my hand and massage it on my face so I know this helps the brush lather.

The shower shave is very slick. I think sudsy is thirsty and needs more water. We have hard water so maybe that's an issue.

On a side note, it used to irritate me, vanilla and almond, but stopped once I went to shower shaving. It really is really good soap.