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The Great Rigid Blade Experiment

Rosseforp

I think this fits, Gents
For rigidity testing, I think a Sonic Fiddlestick is probably the right tool for the job. Unfortunately, it looks like they don't make them anymore (although they're still on the website). Apparently they fetch a pretty high price on that auction website. I'll keep looking around to see if I can find a reasonably priced one, or I'll buy a Type D Durometer.
I checked around a few Slot Car sites and found this link that appears to be current. Sonic Fiddlestick . The Type D Durometer also looks like a good option for a reasonable price.
I can attach my Fiddlestick to one of my adjustable bases and use the Interapid test indicator to detect movement of the blade as it has a very fine tip .4 mm dia.

I might need to get a bigger surface plate.
 

Rosseforp

I think this fits, Gents
Ok gents, this is the basic setup that I came up with.
20210508_091614[1].jpg

BTW, the only new items in this picture are the razor and the surface plate. I got both of them for Christmas last year. The guys at Standridge lapped it to .00005" for me at no extra cost because I picked it up myself. The adjustable height stand in the back was my Grandfather's, it has the patent date Mar 17, 1896 stamped on it.
20210508_100244[1].jpg

The Fiddlestick itself weighs 7.4 grams.
The scale looks like this.
1) 10 grams
2) 30 grams
3) 60 grams
4) 90 grams
5) 120 grams
6) 150 grams
7) 180 grams

A few close-ups to show the positioning of the indicator tip and the Sonic Fiddlestick probe. The test indicator reads out in .0001" increments.
20210508_090706[1].jpg
20210508_091528[1].jpg
20210508_091643[1].jpg
20210508_091719[1].jpg
 
Ok gents, this is the basic setup that I came up with.
View attachment 1263743
BTW, the only new items in this picture are the razor and the surface plate. I got both of them for Christmas last year. The guys at Standridge lapped it to .00005" for me at no extra cost because I picked it up myself. The adjustable height stand in the back was my Grandfather's, it has the patent date Mar 17, 1896 stamped on it.
View attachment 1263758

The Fiddlestick itself weighs 7.4 grams.
The scale looks like this.
1) 10 grams
2) 30 grams
3) 60 grams
4) 90 grams
5) 120 grams
6) 150 grams
7) 180 grams

A few close-ups to show the positioning of the indicator tip and the Sonic Fiddlestick probe. The test indicator reads out in .0001" increments.
View attachment 1263744View attachment 1263746View attachment 1263747View attachment 1263748


Holy crap that's a nice setup! That's the most BOSC thing I've ever seen. 😍 😍 😍 😍

Forgive the dumb/ignorant question, but what raises and lowers the Fiddlestick? Do you loosen the knob holding the fiddlestick and manually lower it until you get a specific amount of deflection on the dial indicator, and then tighten the knob to take the fiddlestick reading, or does that stand able allow the fiddlestick to be mechanically lowered with some kind of screw mechanism?

Incidentally, what did the R41 reading fiddlesticks with setup? How much deflection do you take the fiddlestick reading at?
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
This worked well enough for me to understand my R41 isn't rigid enough, on either end anyway but across the 4 teeth at the center of the blade it was fine.

IMG_2786.JPG


My Grande and NEW SC passed the same test.
 

Rosseforp

I think this fits, Gents
Holy crap that's a nice setup! That's the most BOSC thing I've ever seen. 😍 😍 😍 😍

Forgive the dumb/ignorant question, but what raises and lowers the Fiddlestick? Do you loosen the knob holding the fiddlestick and manually lower it until you get a specific amount of deflection on the dial indicator, and then tighten the knob to take the fiddlestick reading, or does that stand able allow the fiddlestick to be mechanically lowered with some kind of screw mechanism?

Incidentally, what did the R41 reading fiddlesticks with setup? How much deflection do you take the fiddlestick reading at?
No dumb questions here Nick, unless you are a machinist, you have probably never seen any of these inspection tools.
20210508_202602[1].jpg

The thumbwheel on the left pivots the holder, allowing for accurate adjustments.
20210508_202650[1].jpg

I positioned the Sonic Fiddlestick at an angle to match the angle of the blade when raised and lowered.
20210508_202219[1].jpg

In this picture you can see the indicator on zero and the Fiddlestick on 1.
20210508_202148[1].jpg

In this picture you can see the indicator on .0021" and the Fiddlestick on 1.5

Of course, the key to accurate inspection practices is can the results be repeated? I found after I took these pictures that I had to make additional adjustments to the angles to achieve repeat readings.

These are the preliminary readings I got on my R41.
Edge at .0001" movement-1.0 fiddles
Edge at .001" movement-1.5 fiddles
Edge at .002" movement-2.0 fiddles

Center at .0001" movement-1.2 fiddles
Center at .0005" movement-2.0 fiddles
Center at .001" movement-3.0 fiddles
Center at .0015" movement-4.0 fiddles
Center at .002" movement-4.5 fiddles

These are the readings I got on my England Tech
Edge at .0001" movement-1.0 fiddles
Edge at .0005" movement-1.5 fiddles
Edge at .001" movement-2.0 fiddles
Edge at .0015" movement-3.0 fiddles
Edge at .002" movement-4.5 fiddles

Center at .0001" movement-2.5 fiddles
Center at .0005 movement-6 fiddles

It took 7 fiddles to get .0001" movement on my New SC, Mike @Esox
 
No dumb questions here Nick, unless you are a machinist, you have probably never seen any of these inspection tools.
View attachment 1264190
The thumbwheel on the left pivots the holder, allowing for accurate adjustments.
View attachment 1264196
I positioned the Sonic Fiddlestick at an angle to match the angle of the blade when raised and lowered.
View attachment 1264198
In this picture you can see the indicator on zero and the Fiddlestick on 1.
View attachment 1264197
In this picture you can see the indicator on .0021" and the Fiddlestick on 1.5

Of course, the key to accurate inspection practices is can the results be repeated? I found after I took these pictures that I had to make additional adjustments to the angles to achieve repeat readings.

These are the preliminary readings I got on my R41.
Edge at .0001" movement-1.0 fiddles
Edge at .001" movement-1.5 fiddles
Edge at .002" movement-2.0 fiddles

Center at .0001" movement-1.2 fiddles
Center at .0005" movement-2.0 fiddles
Center at .001" movement-3.0 fiddles
Center at .0015" movement-4.0 fiddles
Center at .002" movement-4.5 fiddles

These are the readings I got on my England Tech
Edge at .0001" movement-1.0 fiddles
Edge at .0005" movement-1.5 fiddles
Edge at .001" movement-2.0 fiddles
Edge at .0015" movement-3.0 fiddles
Edge at .002" movement-4.5 fiddles

Center at .0001" movement-2.5 fiddles
Center at .0005 movement-6 fiddles

It took 7 fiddles to get .0001" movement on my New SC, Mike @Esox

Incredible! Real live rigidity measurements! For a BOSChead like me, this is basically on par with the moon landing. 😍 😍 😍

Please tell me you have a Fatip Grande and a Merkur 34c (or EJ DE89)... 😃
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
It took 7 fiddles to get .0001" movement on my New SC, Mike

Thats a dramatic difference.

I would expect that NEW SC razors would all test the same as they were very precisely made. I would also expect that cast razors would all have a variance from razor head to razor head, enough even, to make a difference in use. I think that your R41 head would give a much easier shave than mine would. I have no clue what a Fiddle might weigh but it took very little pressure on my part to deflect the edge of the blade in mine. The center however is, or feels, dead solid.

Now that we can generate this information, what are we going to do with it...
 
Now that we can generate this information, what are we going to do with it...

The first thing I'm curious about is to find out which razor is the most rigid razor, so that I can buy it LOL.

Second, now that we can measure actual rigidity, I think it would be really interesting to figure out what is truly causing it. The first 700 posts in this thread were about trying to guess out what factors might be influencing rigidity. We settled on free-end distance, clamp distance, and blade bend radius as the primary factors influencing rigidity. We have data on all 3 of those parameters. I think it would be very interesting to compare the actual measured rigidity to the parameters above to figure out which of them is actually most important in causing rigidity. This could be as simple as linear regression but I'm sure we've got a data scientist in the B&B community who could apply more sophisticated analytical methods. We may discover that there is an additional explanatory variable we have not yet considered if we can't find a stable correlation between the 3 factors we identified and measured rigidity.

Third, if we are able to see figure out a stable relationship between the 3 parameters above (or new ones), then it would be possible to estimate the most rigid razor possible. This could be compared to existing razors to see how close they came to the ideal. If there is a large gap between what's possible and razors currently available, it would be fun to try to talk somebody with a CNC machine and razor making experience into building a prototype of the most rigid razor possible. What could be more important than building the Excalibur of razors? Pie in the sky I know, but a man can dream. 😃

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Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
The first thing I'm curious about is to find out which razor is the most rigid razor, so that I can buy it LOL.

You might already have one. They are more than 100 years old.

Canadian.jpg


Which would give first: Fiddlestick or baseplate? My money is on the Fiddlestick lol. Although, the brass used back then is soft and the bases are a bit thin and easily bent.

Find a straight unmolested one, load a fresh Feather and enjoy. You need to be careful though, my made in Canada Old Type is the most unforgiving razor I've yet used, especially, with a fresh Feather.
 
Find a straight unmolested one, load a fresh Feather and enjoy. You need to be careful though, my made in Canada Old Type is the most unforgiving razor I've yet used, especially, with a fresh Feather.
Too rigid? Thanks Mike, that's something that's never crossed my mind before.*


* Not with DEs anyway. I guess a wedge straight might be too rigid for some (e.g. those that prefer "singing" straights).
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
Too rigid? Thanks Mike, that's something that's never crossed my mind before.*


* Not with DEs anyway. I guess a wedge straight might be too rigid for some (e.g. those that prefer "singing" straights).

A too rigid design can have its drawbacks. A highly rigid design will show the limits of a blade by tugging more with a blade of poor choice for my hair composition, where a slightly less rigid design, like my Grande compared to that Old Type, will let a 'lesser' blade work easier. Using a Polsilver in that Old Type is an okay shave but because it is so rigid, the Polsilver tugs when it doesnt in my Grande. This is why I like a fresh Feather blade in that Old Type. I dont even feel the blade and not even a hint of tugging. It just wipes the lather off and everything else with it and I dont feel a thing. That also includes any loose skin that might bunch up ahead of the blade. On the upside, Feather blades are so sharp the first shave I've been left wondering why I started bleeding because I felt nothing.

This is where I found blade gap to play a key role. My NEW SC for example is also a highly rigid design but because it has gap, I can feel any loose skin bunching up in that gap, being pinched, before it bites. This is also an area where my Grande shines above all others. It has just enough gap to not bite me if I do let my skin bunch up a bit. Like the Old Type though it offers very little warning of impending blood loss yet lets the edge flex just enough that with any of my top blades and especially Feather, I feel nothing.

That Old Type gives me an 8-10 hour BBS finish. If it had slightly more blade exposure, just slightly positive, I might even better a 12 hour BBS with it. If however, it had positive blade exposure, it might also become even less forgiving. Being able to better feel the blade might help.

Canadian.jpg
 
(...)These are the preliminary readings I got on my R41.
Edge at .0001" movement-1.0 fiddles
Edge at .001" movement-1.5 fiddles
Edge at .002" movement-2.0 fiddles

Center at .0001" movement-1.2 fiddles
Center at .0005" movement-2.0 fiddles
Center at .001" movement-3.0 fiddles
Center at .0015" movement-4.0 fiddles
Center at .002" movement-4.5 fiddles

These are the readings I got on my England Tech
Edge at .0001" movement-1.0 fiddles
Edge at .0005" movement-1.5 fiddles
Edge at .001" movement-2.0 fiddles
Edge at .0015" movement-3.0 fiddles
Edge at .002" movement-4.5 fiddles

Center at .0001" movement-2.5 fiddles
Center at .0005 movement-6 fiddles
(...)

We need a “fiddles to grams”
calculator .Or a conversion formula
of some sort ...
;-)
Good job ,BTW !
 
So it takes 112.4 grams of force
( 4.5 fiddles or 1.124 Newtons )
to deflect .002” ( 50 μm ) the middle part of this particular blade’s edge ,
loaded on the R41 razor .

https://www.badgerandblade.com//forum/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FribYJL8.png&hash=74a1bf9cb33a958990281c8ee00123b5

At 50” / min ( or 2 cm/sec )
rate of cut ( aka speed of attack )
each ( dry ) facial hair strand needs about 10 grams of force to cut (f-t-c) .
It takes just 11 hair strands to
bend the blade 50 um ( which is
not a small amount of deflection
for a shaving blade ) .

Taking into account a good prep
,which can reduce the amount of
f-t-c by 40% :
Each hair strand then ,
at 2 cm/sec SOA needs 6 grams
of f-t-c.

At this case , it will take about
19 strands of hair to be cut simultaneously,
in order for the blade
to deflect 50 um .

Well...
It explains mathematically why
more than a few people think of
R41 as a blade chattering beast.

Low rigidity needs low rates of cut .
Staying under 1 - 1.5 cm/sec will
aid into minimizing blade edge deflection ,thus the so-called “blade chattering “.
 
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You might already have one. They are more than 100 years old.

You may be right. I don't doubt for a second that the New SC is extremely rigid. The question is, "is it possible to do better?". I believe that it's possible to improve the rigidity of a New SC design just by changing the metal being used.

First consider though that we're measuring only measuring the deflection downwards away from the cap. This force takes into account clamp distance (baseplate clamp point to blade edge distance) and bend radius. It does not take into account free-end-length, which is the distance between where the cap clamps the blade to the edge of the blade.

If we were to push up from between the comb tines, pushing the blade up and towards the cap, I think we'd find that it moves up pretty easily, because there is a very long free-end-distance. This is pretty important, because this is the actual direction of force when we're shaving. This is not to say it's not a rigid razor, just that it's still possible to make it more rigid.

Stainless steel is much stronger and less ductile than brass for the same given thickness. This is probably the wrong table to use and not necessarily the right parameters, but take a look at the difference between brass and 304 SS.

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Let's say stainless steel is twice as strong as brass at the same thickness. It seems reasonable that you could make the parts nearly half as thick as a brass and retain the same strength. (I can appreciate that it's probably an exponential rather than linear relationship between thickness and strength, but you get the point). Why would that matter? Because it means we can reduce the free-end-length.

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Many stainless steel razors don't take advantage of this; they just make a stainless version of a brass design. Razors like the RR Mamba do take this into account and the topcaps are crazy thin. It's also rigid AF as a result.

Just a thought.
 
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Looking at the measuring device
and checking my calculations ,
me thinks have discovered a faulty
condition .

The fiddlestick should not be applying
force to a point on the blade’s edge ,
but instead should apply (as also
measure ) pressure to the whole
length of the blade’s edge and more
specifically at the keen ”peak”
of the edge and
at an angle that resembles the
actual angle of attack during shaving .

The blade’s edge ,while shaving,
is engaged into cutting hair strands
in it’s whole length and not
only on a certain point .
Multiple hair strands are being cut
at the same time ,while their exact
position when meeting the blade’s edge is random.
Thus a piece of very rigid and light material should be placed between
the whole length of the very edge and
the tip of the fiddlestick ,
in order to distribute the force evenly
to the whole length of blade’s edge.
 
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Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
You may be right. I don't doubt for a second that the New SC is extremely rigid. The question is, "is it possible to do better?". I believe that it's possible to improve the rigidity of a New SC design just by changing the metal being used.

First consider though that we're measuring only measuring the deflection downwards away from the cap. This force takes into account clamp distance (baseplate clamp point to blade edge distance) and bend radius. It does not take into account free-end-length, which is the distance between where the cap clamps the blade to the edge of the blade.

If we were to push up from between the comb tines, pushing the blade up and towards the cap, I think we'd find that it moves up pretty easily, because there is a very long free-end-distance. This is pretty important, because this is the actual direction of force when we're shaving. This is not to say it's not a rigid razor, just that it's still possible to make it more rigid.

Stainless steel is much stronger and less ductile than brass for the same given thickness. This is probably the wrong table to use and not necessarily the right parameters, but take a look at the difference between brass and 304 SS.

proxy.php


Let's say stainless steel is twice as strong as brass at the same thickness. It seems reasonable that you could make the parts nearly half as thick as a brass and retain the same strength. (I can appreciate that it's probably an exponential rather than linear relationship between thickness and strength, but you get the point). Why would that matter? Because it means we can reduce the free-end-length.

proxy.php


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Many stainless steel razors don't take advantage of this; they just make a stainless version of a brass design. Razors like the RR Mamba do take this into account and the topcaps are crazy thin. It's also rigid AF as a result.

Just a thought.

You've just described the difference between using the New SC cap and using a New LC or Tech cap on a New SC base. The New SC cap is the narrowest and allows the most blade exposure, as well as free end distance. The post war Tech cap is the widest and offers the least blade exposure and free end distance. The difference between them isnt much. I need an extra clean up pass on my neck with a Tech cap. The New SC, with the proper SC cap, offers all the rigidity I personally need, it lacks blade exposure for me. The design is a very good one. The base is robust without being bulky and the quality of the brass is better than on my Canadian Old Type.

Pushing upwards from between the teeth of the comb poses a problem. To impart flex in an upward direction you would first need enough pressure to overcome the curve imparted to the blade from the cap. While I believe that can happen with some designs like below as an example,

dHfO7igl1.jpg


I believe that would only happen with a less rigid design simply because there isnt enough resistance on the small clamping point to securely hold the blade in place. Again, the Old Type and New SC are the finest examples of that I've seen. The clamping surface is as wide as the entire cap.

IMG_2118.JPG


To deflect the blades edge in that New SC, a cap from a pen isnt going to do it and either did a scratch awl, that I could see, the awl just slipped off the edge of the blade. It may have flexed then but its a moot point. No one is going to impart that level of pressure while shaving. To impart upward flex in either my New SC or Old Type I dont think you could measure that in in/lbs. ft/lbs maybe and you might need a pry bar lol.

If one was so inclined, I'm not but it has crossed my mind, one could carefully polish the comb on a razor and increase blade exposure while maintaining free end distance. Why none of the razor designers other than Wolfman have thought of that I dont know, maybe they have and discarded the idea but it still has merit to me.

I've been wondering why razor makers that offer interchangeable bases only make the bases with varying gaps. It would be just as easy I'd think to keep gap a constant and vary blade exposure slightly from negative to positive. Five bases all with the same gap but, for example, bases #1 and #2 having, respectively, .004" and .002" negative exposure. Base #3 neutral exposure, while bases #4 have .002" positive exposure and #5 .004" positive exposure, with maybe an option of .006" for those who like moar! lol

I'll take mine with an .010" 'G' (gap) and .004" '+X' (exposure) base, please. Then maybe step up to a .006" '+X' base. :)

That could be done just by varying the dimensions of the SB/OC. Basic geometry would stay the same and variable blade gaps could still be implemented. Its more work, R&D and machine time, but it would also be the only such design on the market.

I like that idea and its now mine lol, but, any razor designers/makers feel free to contact me in regard to royalties lol.

Maybe there just arent enough of us that know exactly the geometry we'd like in a razor.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
Well...
It explains mathematically why
more than a few people think of
R41 as a blade chattering beast.

Low rigidity needs low rates of cut .
Staying under 1 - 1.5 cm/sec will
aid into minimizing blade edge deflection ,thus the so-called “blade chattering “.

Which is why I've never referred to the R41 as efficient. Yes, it can give me the same 12 hour BBS as my Grande but it takes me 15-20 minutes to achieve it and I need to pay close attention to direction of stroke in all three directions of passes, and, I can only use a fresh Feather blade.

Something not taken into consideration is the direction of cut. On a WTG pass, the blade can slip minutely along the hair shaft as it cuts which would impart less resistance to the blades edge. Shaving ATG however would offer far more resistance. My first shave with an R41 I used a Derby Extra, my go to blade for a new razor. Its a top 3 blade in my Grande. In the R41, my first shave below.

R41, Common Bar handle - Derby Extra.

Stirling Island Man.

Maggard synthetic.

49 hours since last shave.

Starting with the typical 3 pass shave, first pass N-S WTG/XTG. Second pass S-N XTG/ATG. Third pass and all cleanups done directly ATG.

Like I said in my first shave with my Grande and a Derby Extra, as soon as the razor moved I knew.

It tugged, considerably. No effortless full length strokes on this first pass. Two strokes over my cheek to my jawline and 4 strokes from my jawline to the base of my neck. Interestingly, as soon as the blade encountered my swirls, it skipped right over them, even leaving lather in the stubble. An adjustment in technique solved that however. I went a little shallower and increased the pressure considerably. That ended the skipping and minimized the tugging.

Rigidity doesnt make a shave more effective? I very much disagree.

Second pass S-N and still some very light tugging but not an issue and honestly, smooth sailing. Comfortable and easy. I buffed around my chin the same as always, a little over my swirls and even changed direction, painting lather with the comb and shaved over both swirls the opposite direction keeping to a shallow angle. No issues.

Third pass directly ATG, angle leaning more to neutral and steep than shallow now. Again no issues, nice smooth easy shave, very light buffing over my jawline both sides and my swirls again.

Wipe and check and not quite there yet, so I did one more clean up pass and finished with a very nice and comfortable BBS shave. No irritation or redness at all and my skin is cool and comfortable.

Now I'll say, Derby Extra is not a good match in this razor and using it has cemented what I've said numerous times about the many people that have tried them and dislike them. Use them in a rigid design! It makes a difference.

Using the same blade in my Grande its a 2 1/2 pass BBS. No tugging, no skipping. The difference in blade exposure between the two is minimal.

R41-FATIP2.jpg


Not only does it make a difference with Derby Extra, but it does every other blade I've tried as well.

Rigidity. Makes. A. Difference.

Now I will also say, a sharper blade may very well eliminate the tugging and skipping I experienced, but at the same time, wouldnt a more rigid design also elevate that blade too? Yep, it would.
 
You've just described the difference between using the New SC cap and using a New LC or Tech cap on a New SC base. The New SC cap is the narrowest and allows the most blade exposure, as well as free end distance. The post war Tech cap is the widest and offers the least blade exposure and free end distance. The difference between them isnt much. I need an extra clean up pass on my neck with a Tech cap. The New SC, with the proper SC cap, offers all the rigidity I personally need, it lacks blade exposure for me. The design is a very good one. The base is robust without being bulky and the quality of the brass is better than on my Canadian Old Type.

Pushing upwards from between the teeth of the comb poses a problem. To impart flex in an upward direction you would first need enough pressure to overcome the curve imparted to the blade from the cap. While I believe that can happen with some designs like below as an example,

View attachment 1265886

I believe that would only happen with a less rigid design simply because there isnt enough resistance on the small clamping point to securely hold the blade in place. Again, the Old Type and New SC are the finest examples of that I've seen. The clamping surface is as wide as the entire cap.

View attachment 1265889

To deflect the blades edge in that New SC, a cap from a pen isnt going to do it and either did a scratch awl, that I could see, the awl just slipped off the edge of the blade. It may have flexed then but its a moot point. No one is going to impart that level of pressure while shaving. To impart upward flex in either my New SC or Old Type I dont think you could measure that in in/lbs. ft/lbs maybe and you might need a pry bar lol.

If one was so inclined, I'm not but it has crossed my mind, one could carefully polish the comb on a razor and increase blade exposure while maintaining free end distance. Why none of the razor designers other than Wolfman have thought of that I dont know, maybe they have and discarded the idea but it still has merit to me.



Maybe there just arent enough of us that know exactly the geometry we'd like in a razor.
Tatara is one of the few (only?) who specs exposure on their plate and cap combinations.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 
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