Yep, it's also much easier to repair the damage on a knife since you can bear down more.
The Burr
- Thread starter ScottChapin
- Start date
There's diminishing returns in bevel setting and using equal strokes - first one side then the other - I shouldn't think the bevel gets thinned out so much that it causes a burr. Probably, specially on synthetic water stones, the burr "conforms" to the surface and cannot be refined much further, while the particles of the bevel setter will have already removed all the steel that a particle of that size and shape will do. I've never experienced a raised burr (when using equal strokes) or an overly fragile edge from too much bevel setting.
You can pull it through felt, cork or leather to get rid of any... how to put it?... "floating foil" on the edge after finishing, or you can do that Iwasaki thing, a slight 'sideways' movement of the blade. There's things you can do during honing to minimise that happening anyway, the X-stroke does that (I would think) - the particles moving up and over the thinned out edge, rather than going straight in to it. Maybe shorter strokes towards the end of finishing too.
Personally, I'm not terribly keen on raising burrs on any edge tools at any stage, and from what I've seen modern knife sharpening is moving away from the older "form a burr and then snap it off" & "if there is no burr there is no sharpening" way of doing it.
Thank you. Raising a burr on a hollow-ground razor is not something I really want to be doing by way of a standard method.
Isn't it true that you will be removing the same amount of steel getting a proper apex regardless of the method you use to get there? If not, why not?
Yes. It really isn't a big deal. We're not talking grinding on a razor for hours here. I recently demonstrated in another thread that as little as 10 seconds work on one side of a razor with a Chosera 1k can produce a visible/detectable burr.
You would be removing slightly more IMO because the burr can't form until the bevels meet. If you stopped right then you would have a set bevel with no burr. You have to go a bit past the point where the bevels meet to get a burr, then go a bit further yet to remove the burr and refine the edge. The burr is a reliable method for the inexperienced to verify that the bevels are meeting, but with experience there are better ways of accomplishing this. TNT, tomato, etc. I still teach the burr method for knife sharpening, but not for razors.
Personally I don't think it matters at all. Anyone who thinks they are only honing JUST far enough to make the bevels meet without removing anymore steel is fooling themselves IMO. For beginning honers the burr method is absolutely best as it gives a reliable visible indicator. As a little more experience is gained, most people just keep honing until the edge passes a sharpness test.
- Thread starter
- #28
I think that’s why I had it in my head that it did something more, like verifying that the bevels were equal.
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Raising a burr wastes steel, but for a beginner finding a barely detecetable burr is a great way to KNOW you have reached the edge. Useful on Gold Dollars, too, as they usually have wonky edges from the factory.
Once you learn the feedback from your stones, there is no point in raising a burr, nor would I on a razor I know has a properly set edge.
You must count strokes and use equal numbers on both sides, else you will move the apex off the centerline of the razor (if it was there to start with...), not a huge issue on most razors, but a very thin hollow ground might end up with a somewhat asymetric bevel and shave differently on the two sides.
A burr should always be abraded off, never broken, otherwise you will very likely end up with a ragged edge that needs more work! For razors, I'd recommend never intentionally raising one except on a bevel setting stone for beginners -- far better to avoid it that fix it.
Once you learn the feedback from your stones, there is no point in raising a burr, nor would I on a razor I know has a properly set edge.
You must count strokes and use equal numbers on both sides, else you will move the apex off the centerline of the razor (if it was there to start with...), not a huge issue on most razors, but a very thin hollow ground might end up with a somewhat asymetric bevel and shave differently on the two sides.
A burr should always be abraded off, never broken, otherwise you will very likely end up with a ragged edge that needs more work! For razors, I'd recommend never intentionally raising one except on a bevel setting stone for beginners -- far better to avoid it that fix it.
But ... Nearly a month later and I'm still a dismal failure at setting a bevel... Thank goodness I can manage the pasted balsa to maintain what others have done for me.
Now I have this question floating around in my head... Can a razor be sharp (treetops 1/2") without being "shave ready"?
If the answer to that is no, then your razor isn't the problem and you can set your mind at ease about the one you've sent off.
If the answer to that is no, then your razor isn't the problem and you can set your mind at ease about the one you've sent off.
Wrong thread, but that’s an interesting thought. I’ve been under the impression until now that a blade was either sufficiently sharp or not, but a lot of people swear by smoother edges that aren’t necessarily perfectly polished down to the sharpest of possible edges.
I don't think it can. It may be uncomfortable for some, but often that can be rectified by just lowering the angle so that the spine is closer to the face or even touching the face while shaving.
Yeah, wrong thread. That was supposed to go in your thread... I was bouncing sroaro threads and I must have pasted it into the wrong one.
Actually one exception to that now that I've just reread it would be a razor with a wire edge. Those can be extremely sharp and shave well for a short while but the edge won't last.
Happy to report that yesterday saw that changed. I spent yesterday evening really taking my time on the 1k stone and checking with the TNT, the Thumbpad Test, and visual inspection with a lighted 40x loupe. Based on the information in this thread I was able to raise a burr on the whole length of the edge, move it to the other side, and then take it through a decreasing pyramid until individual alternating laps. I even felt real "sticktion". I was then was able to take the edge up through 4k, 8k, 12k, and finished with 0.5, 0.25, and 0.10u pasted balsa to develop a real shave ready edge.
Shave test was this morning and it was smooth and sharp. A great shave! I've been able to shave with my own edges before, but they weren't at all comfortable. This one was on par with edges I have had from those that know what they are doing. My first truly shave ready edge from bevel set onward. Now to practice for 3 or 4 more years until I can do it consistently...
Couldn't have done it without the information in this thread. Thanks to all...
Great job RB, congrats. Enjoy the journey.
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