Forgive my ignorance gentlemen (and ladies) but I have been wondering for some time, what is the deal with the absence of tallow in soaps and creams? Why the trend toward glycerin? I have heard the animal cruelty argument, but I can't help but wonder, if tallow is basically the fat byproduct of animals that are already being harvested in some manner or another, why not use the fat? If I'm incorrect, by all means inform me. Weigh in.
Tallow...why not?
- Thread starter Thelonius1
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Cost?
Beats me! The animal cruelty argument sound especially hollow when the companies in question replace tallow with saponified palm fats from palm trees in Borneo planted on what used to be rainforest, thus further pushing endangered species such as the orangutan towards extinction.
AFAIK no animals are killed for their fat; my guess is that, with the current tendency to consume as little fat as possible, they hardly know what to do with it anyway.
But animals in cosmetics, as well as animal testing, seems to be a public worry and the tendency is to leave all animal products out of cosmetics.
Why? Because it sells and rather than to explain to the public (or the public starting to think for themselves) the easiest way is chosen; out with tallow!
But animals in cosmetics, as well as animal testing, seems to be a public worry and the tendency is to leave all animal products out of cosmetics.
Why? Because it sells and rather than to explain to the public (or the public starting to think for themselves) the easiest way is chosen; out with tallow!
I found this cost chart for rapeseed versus tallow per metric tonne in US$:
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I think it's harder to work with; a lot of the glycerine soapmakers use melt-and-pour bases and add components to reach a shaving soap. I don't mean to discredit the quality of such soaps, but the process seems a little simpler to my uninformed perspective. You can see some evidence for this in what they charge as well, but I imagine it's cheaper.
Seems to me that it's popular to bash vegans/vegetarians as being uninformed hippies. However, it's difficult to generalize any large group and I think you'd find that a good many of them are reasonable people making an educated choice for themselves.
Just my opinion, but if someone chooses not to use an animal product that's simply their decision and it doesn't require justification. There's lots of choice in life and seems like there are still plenty of products available with tallow. So why all the discussion?
Just my opinion, but if someone chooses not to use an animal product that's simply their decision and it doesn't require justification. There's lots of choice in life and seems like there are still plenty of products available with tallow. So why all the discussion?
The European Union has also started regulating animal-based products more closely, which some manufacturers have cited as a reason/excuse (depending your perspective) to reformulate.
Maybe Sue from Mama Bear can give us an answer.
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- #11
I'm undertain to whom you're referring, but as to my question, it has nothing to do with bashing anyone. I'm addressing the reformation of a number of products that were once made with tallow. Even if it were more expensive (and if the general survey of this group bears true) there is a substantial market for tallow. Manufacturers could pass the costs of production along to the consumer and grow the consumer base simply because they do use tallow.
As to whether someone chooses to use/not use tallow based products I would agree 100% that is there personal decision. My inquiry was to the producers and was in now way intended to offer an opiniion or generalize anyone on what they choose to shave with. Vegans, shave with what you will, I won't generalize nor would I expect someone to generalize because I asked the question.
Though I referred to public not thinking for themselves about the last group I was thinking of are vegans or vegetarians; they did think and made a choice and there is nothing wrong with that.
What I was referring to are people running after opinions of someone else or jumping to conclusions when (parts of) scientific 'evidence' shows up. All too often manufactorers jump into a hype by changing their formulations and advertise with it. Nobody seems to ask themselves whether the change in formulation is a good thing; nor for quality nor for healthcare.
We have discussed this before several times.
It is my belief that it was due to the Mad Cow Disease a few years ago. It's not an "opinion," and I'm not saying it with any judgment.
I think the decision has to do with scientists not knowing exactly how it is transmitted, laws against beef products being imported into other countries, and public fear against getting mad cow disease from beef related products.
BTW, I am a vegetarian, but I do use animal products (diary, eggs, badger and boar hair brushes and leather). But I'm not fooling myself by saying things like tallow and leather cause the deaths of more cows. They lower the price of beef, and therefore beef is more affordable, and therefore people eat more cattle. I'm not preaching, because I admit that I am part of the "problem."
BTW, has anyone thought to ask a shaving cream producer why they took out the tallow?
It is my belief that it was due to the Mad Cow Disease a few years ago. It's not an "opinion," and I'm not saying it with any judgment.
I think the decision has to do with scientists not knowing exactly how it is transmitted, laws against beef products being imported into other countries, and public fear against getting mad cow disease from beef related products.
BTW, I am a vegetarian, but I do use animal products (diary, eggs, badger and boar hair brushes and leather). But I'm not fooling myself by saying things like tallow and leather cause the deaths of more cows. They lower the price of beef, and therefore beef is more affordable, and therefore people eat more cattle. I'm not preaching, because I admit that I am part of the "problem."
BTW, has anyone thought to ask a shaving cream producer why they took out the tallow?
I'm sorry. I guessed I jumped to conclusions, but with the discussion of the "animal cruelty" argument, and the further assessment that it was a hollow one, I felt the discussion was aiming blame at a a particular group of people.
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- #15
No worries, I do find it interesting that this may be an instance where the producers ignore the market demand, I'd be interested to learn just how much of the wet-shaving public expresses a preference for new vs. old formulas.
Wouldn't it be great if a company like Penhaligons continued to offer the tallow version for their customers who like tallow soaps, and also made a vegetable-based soap available for their customers who want to avoid tallow?
I have no doubt that they did this for economic purposes. Whether it was Mad Cow, or most of their customers did not want tallow, or for some other reason, it was for economic reasons.
It's funny, but my favorite soaps don't use tallow and I have never really seen the point. I personally don't think tallow makes the soap perform any better so why bother with the extra cost? Of course this is very much a YMMV thing and it might also depend on your water.
What I would like to do, to be scientific, is take a soap that is still available in both versions (like palmolive shave sticks) and have a few people do a blind test. I'm betting their would not be a clear consensus.
Having said that, this blind test is still on my "to do" list and I have not had much luck tracking down the tallow version in Australia. But, when I do, I shall report to you all.
What I would like to do, to be scientific, is take a soap that is still available in both versions (like palmolive shave sticks) and have a few people do a blind test. I'm betting their would not be a clear consensus.
Having said that, this blind test is still on my "to do" list and I have not had much luck tracking down the tallow version in Australia. But, when I do, I shall report to you all.
I use a tallow based soap to wash with, I don't have a problem with it. But I imagine the soap companies are phasing out tallow because they want to be able to market their product to a higher percentage of the population. Veggies and vegans are not going to buy a meat based product, but meat eaters will still buy a glycerin based product.
I find *** somewhat hard to believe that a business would base a decision like that on the veggie population. A survey by The Vegetarian Group found that only 6.7% of the population will not consume meat. What about the other 93.3%. When I owned my business I would have been able to live without 6.7% of the population wanting my product.
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