Single Ring Odd Ball? Double Stamped <Gillette> Logo, No Made in Info :o/

[ERVARGASNY]

Here is a set i found interesting, Looks to be a Canada Set? Does Anyone know if this is the Original Case for it? Case doesn't say Gillette on it, not as far as i can see.

Case- Case is in Excellent Condition, Its made of a Dark Brown Chocolate Bakelite Material, Opens and closes like a Shoe Box, Top just gets pics up and comes off, There are no hinges at all.

Blade Cases- Cases appear to be Nickel ? Also cap of the blade holder says "Gillette Blades" and on the side of the Cap is the <Gillette> Logo and words "known The World Over"

Razor- Serial Number Starts with an H and is a Six Digit Number. But does not say Made in USA or Made In Canada ? Pretty odd if you ask me. What i do find strange is the Double stamp <Gillette" Logo's on the Bottom of the Top Cap and on the Top of the Bottom Comb. Can someone tell me more about this ? Could this be a German Set? Do to no made in Info or Stamp , and because of the blades it came with? Any info is appreciated )


Blades- This Set came with 50 Blades They are all 3 hole blades Wrapped in a Really Nice Thin But Durable Wax Paper This is Waxed Extremly well and Feels good to Touch "Love that Waxy Feeling on the Paper" Blades seem to come from Germany? Name Bran is "EVEREST" and other side of wrapper has some German Lettering "Lots of it".

 

[ERVARGASNY]

More Odd Single Ring Pics

 

[dpm802]

It could be a Frankenrazor. That would account for the double stamping, if top and bottom caps came from different units.

And Gillette liked to put his name on EVERYTHING, so the case is probably from a different brand.

 

[elmerwood]

Check out Porters thread HERE it may help.

 

[ERVARGASNY]

It could be a Frankenrazor. That would account for the double stamping, if top and bottom caps came from different units.

And Gillette liked to put his name on EVERYTHING, so the case is probably from a different brand.

Could be, but seems original wear and Tear wise, Top and Bottom Cap. Also it doesn't have a made in USA, Canada, France, Or Germany That is Pretty Odd Because it does have the Gillette Stamp on it. The Serial Number on the Handle is Also odd as well.

I know someone will come along and Nail this one ;o)

 

[ERVARGASNY]

Check out Porters thread HERE it may help.

Thanks Elmerwood, Seems to be a few of these Double Stamped Gillette Single Rings around at least 3-4 of them accounted for. At least its not a FrankenRazor ) Seems to be the Real thing , but no one has Nailed it so far as to the Origination of these Double Stamped Single Rings? and the Odd this is Mine Starts with an H and Not an E like the other ones / I am sure they are all in the same Family, These little Siblings "RAZORS" are finding each other after many years of Separation, Thanks to places like B&B

 

[MacDaddy]

I would assume that the case yours is in isn't original, but the blade cases are perfectly normal for that era -- they were introduced around 1908 with the "New Process" blades. Check the tip of the inner barrel on yours there, Vargas. I'd bet that yours also has the British patent number inscription like mine below.

My supposition is that these razors were made in the Leicester plant prior to WWI. However, it seems highly unlikely that they'd have made so many razors in the short time to go through so many letter prefixes as we've seen in their serial numbers. My own wild conjecture in this area is that the letters instead represented the market that the razor was bound for -- E for England, F for France, G for Germany. Perhaps H was Austria-Hungary, which would have been about the size of France or Germany at the time.

 

[alex2363]

I would assume that the case yours is in isn't original, but the blade cases are perfectly normal for that era -- they were introduced around 1908 with the "New Process" blades. Check the tip of the inner barrel on yours there, Vargas. I'd bet that yours also has the British patent number inscription like mine below.

My supposition is that these razors were made in the Leicester plant prior to WWI. However, it seems highly unlikely that they'd have made so many razors in the short time to go through so many letter prefixes as we've seen in their serial numbers. My own wild conjecture in this area is that the letters instead represented the market that the razor was bound for -- E for England, F for France, G for Germany. Perhaps H was Austria-Hungary, which would have been about the size of France or Germany at the time.

Porter that is a good theory. I have a question. Gilette had factories in Germany, France and England. Why would it be beneficial to make these razors for those markets. The shipping would not be cost effective and each country already had a factory to make the razors anyway. Germany,France and England all had their own plants to make razors. Were these probably Gillette subsidiaries made razors that needed this designation code to ship to the appropriate country/market?

 

[ERVARGASNY]

Your correct Porter, I do have that BR PAT on the top edge of the inner barrel , just like yours. Even if the case is wrong it compliments the razor well, Fits like a Glove

Thanks for the info, I am glad I'm not alone with this double stamped single ring, How many others are there known ?

 

[dpm802]

I'd like to know more about those KruppStahl blades, never heard of them, but Krupp was a famous German manufactuer.

Being they were 3-hole blades would help pin down the age of the set, or at least let you know the last time it was used.

 

[MacDaddy]

Porter that is a good theory. I have a question. Gilette had factories in Germany, France and England. Why would it be beneficial to make these razors for those markets. The shipping would not be cost effective and each country already had a factory to make the razors anyway. Germany,France and England all had their own plants to make razors. Were these probably Gillette subsidiaries made razors that needed this designation code to ship to the appropriate country/market?

I could certainly be wrong, but I'm not aware of any evidence that those other factories were anything more than blade production plants in those early years prior to WWI. Most of these early factories seemed to be more about Gillette establishing their rights to their patents in those countries, and since the blade was the heart of Gillette's innovation making the blades in-country would have been enough for them to establish their claim.

Your correct Porter, I do have that BR PAT on the top edge of the inner barrel , just like yours. Even if the case is wrong it compliments the razor well, Fits like a Glove

Thanks for the info, I am glad I'm not alone with this double stamped single ring, How many others are there known ?

I've seen a small-to-middling handful of them. It's entirely possible that this is just how they made them from the Leicester plant, and since that plant was only operational for 5-6 years there just aren't that many examples left to find out there.

 

[thekinge]

Thanks Elmerwood, Seems to be a few of these Double Stamped Gillette Single Rings around at least 3-4 of them accounted for. At least its not a FrankenRazor ) Seems to be the Real thing , but no one has Nailed it so far as to the Origination of these Double Stamped Single Rings? and the Odd this is Mine Starts with an H and Not an E like the other ones / I am sure they are all in the same Family, These little Siblings "RAZORS" are finding each other after many years of Separation, Thanks to places like B&B

Your correct Porter, I do have that BR PAT on the top edge of the inner barrel , just like yours. Even if the case is wrong it compliments the razor well, Fits like a Glove

Thanks for the info, I am glad I'm not alone with this double stamped single ring, How many others are there known ?

Nice find Vargas! I have one exactly like this, with the diamond Gillette logo on the underside of the cap, the topside of the base plate and patent information on the top end of the knob. The serial number in my razor is on the handle but starts with "E" which means it was made in England as explained by Porter. Mine also has the "G in D" logo on the underside of the base plate which to my knowledge means it was a set meant for European market and it comes in a British single ring case with the patent & trademark information on the bottom of the case. I will post pictures of my set later in the evening (Singapore time).

 

[ERVARGASNY]

Nice find Vargas! I have one exactly like this, with the diamond Gillette logo on the underside of the cap, the topside of the base plate and patent information on the top end of the knob. The serial number in my razor is on the handle but starts with "E" which means it was made in England as explained by Porter. Mine also has the "G in D" logo on the underside of the base plate which to my knowledge means it was a set meant for European market and it comes in a British single ring case with the patent & trademark information on the bottom of the case. I will post pictures of my set later in the evening (Singapore time).

Awesome, Pics would be great, So you are in Singapore ? You live there ? I ask because i have a good friend here in NY from Singapore and one day i will Visit, He warned me no to bring Gum as it is Illegal in Singapore, Do to Control of people spitting there gums out on the street and sidewalk ?

 

[elmerwood]

Awesome, Pics would be great, So you are in Singapore ? You live there ? I ask because i have a good friend here in NY from Singapore and one day i will Visit, He warned me no to bring Gum as it is Illegal in Singapore, Do to Control of people spitting there gums out on the street and sidewalk ?

My father went there for work a few times and brought me a shirt that had the little red circles with a slash through them warning what you couldn't do. If I remember correctly it was actions like: chewing gum, spitting, feeding birds,not flushing a public toilet?, no smoking and more. He did however say that women could walk around the city at all hours without fear of anything happening.

 

[alex2363]

I could certainly be wrong, but I'm not aware of any evidence that those other factories were anything more than blade production plants in those early years prior to WWI. Most of these early factories seemed to be more about Gillette establishing their rights to their patents in those countries, and since the blade was the heart of Gillette's innovation making the blades in-country would have been enough for them to establish their claim.

Porter, the patents working laws varied with each country( Patent working law-which meant that the product had to be worked/manufactured in that country or patent would lapse). According to Gillette counsel and sells dirctor Pelham England did not have such patent law. That meant that Gillette did not have to worry about any foreign patent issues in England. Gillette made razors and blades in the England factory after a high demand for the product was realized in England and Europe in general. So Gillette actually made razors and blades there. It was not just blades.

The worked patent law did apply to France and Gillette did have to hurry up and set up a factory before the Patent deadline. Gillette finally found a small place that was a old bike shop and set up the first foreign factory, just in time to save the patent from revocation. However, the French government figured things out few years later and ruled against the patent because Gillette really just used the factory location as stop gag to protect the patent. Gillette relocated to another location in France to make razors and blades, and they had to oblige to make both razors and blades since the french government were sticklers to this issue.....In this case Gillette most likely did not make razors in France until a few years later.

Germany had many complex patent laws and Gillette had many patents filed there. Gillette was not aware of patent cut off dates due to the many patent filings and the entanglement of infringement/suit court cases. However it did not matter since German law provision stated that if " large demand was supplied goods made abroad" the patent would not be working and revoked. So Gillette could not make razors elsewhere and send them there since it would be a patent working issue. Gillette had no other choice than to make a factory in Germany that made razors and blades. In 1908 razors and blades were being made and shipped out of Berlin factory. At this time the finishing touches were put in the Leicester factory too......so it seems that all 3 countries, England, Germany and France did make razors, not just blades. France did start at a later date due to the working patent issue.

sources: "Cutting Edge" by Gordon Mckibben and "The man and wonderful shaving device" by Russell Adams

 

[thekinge]

Awesome, Pics would be great, So you are in Singapore ? You live there ? I ask because i have a good friend here in NY from Singapore and one day i will Visit, He warned me no to bring Gum as it is Illegal in Singapore, Do to Control of people spitting there gums out on the street and sidewalk ?

Yes sir, I do live in Singapore and love it here! Please do give me a shout if you are headed to the little red dot. I'll be more than happy to meet up and take you around Singapore

My father went there for work a few times and brought me a shirt that had the little red circles with a slash through them warning what you couldn't do. If I remember correctly it was actions like: chewing gum, spitting, feeding birds,not flushing a public toilet?, no smoking and more. He did however say that women could walk around the city at all hours without fear of anything happening.

Well, at least half of it is true Public smoking is still allowed, although they're debating a ban on that as well. But chewing gums are a strict no and liable for a pretty heavy fine if anyone is caught carrying or chewing one. Local legend has it that it was allowed many years ago, but a particularly mischievous commuter chewed up quite a few, rounded them up together and stuck it in the automatic doors of the local metro train, causing the doors to jam and thus a disruption in service. It is just a story that I heard and not too sure how true it is, but this is one place where the laws are pretty strict and you do not want to be on the wrong side of the law! And yes, this is the most safest place I've ever lived in and happy to be here. Women can walk alone any time of the day with no fear and it is very common to see them returning alone from weekend hangouts or parties pretty late in the night ( 2 AM - 5 AM). The laws here can be viewed by most as being too backwards: theft, robbery by break-in and crimes against women always result in caning (yes, its whipping!) followed by jail-term and serious crimes such as murder or murder caused by rape result in death penalty. But it's horses for courses; the system works here thanks to effective / clean governance & policing and such severe punishments act as a major deterrent in making Singapore a (almost) crime free place. Besides, any law abiding resident of Singapore has nothing to worry about and will usually come to appreciate the safety & stability that Singapore offers. Now back to the unusual Gillette razor that Vargas scored!

 

[ERVARGASNY]

Yes sir, I do live in Singapore and love it here! Please do give me a shout if you are headed to the little red dot. I'll be more than happy to meet up and take you around Singapore



Well, at least half of it is true Public smoking is still allowed, although they're debating a ban on that as well. But chewing gums are a strict no and liable for a pretty heavy fine if anyone is caught carrying or chewing one. Local legend has it that it was allowed many years ago, but a particularly mischievous commuter chewed up quite a few, rounded them up together and stuck it in the automatic doors of the local metro train, causing the doors to jam and thus a disruption in service. It is just a story that I heard and not too sure how true it is, but this is one place where the laws are pretty strict and you do not want to be on the wrong side of the law! And yes, this is the most safest place I've ever lived in and happy to be here. Women can walk alone any time of the day with no fear and it is very common to see them returning alone from weekend hangouts or parties pretty late in the night ( 2 AM - 5 AM). The laws here can be viewed by most as being too backwards: theft, robbery by break-in and crimes against women always result in caning (yes, its whipping!) followed by jail-term and serious crimes such as murder or murder caused by rape result in death penalty. But it's horses for courses; the system works here thanks to effective / clean governance & policing and such severe punishments act as a major deterrent in making Singapore a (almost) crime free place. Besides, any law abiding resident of Singapore has nothing to worry about and will usually come to appreciate the safety & stability that Singapore offers. Now back to the unusual Gillette razor that Vargas scored!

Sounds safe for sure, but i would hate to be Wrongfully Convicted of a Crime i didn't commit or loose the case because i cant afford a good lawyer or even Defend myself /, Like so many have died in the Death Penalty that shouldn't have, i don't mind it safe but i am totally against Capitol Punishment, No one has a right to take a life so why should the Government decide they can? They Bible does say an Eye for an Eye, and it also states that Thou shall not kill, Meaning an Eye for an Eye has its Limitations as we all know the Bible does not Contradict itself So an Eye for an Eye is the Limit as long as it doesn't cause Death. Anyways getting back to the Nice Lovely Double stamped Gillette Logo Single Ring )

 

[MacDaddy]

Porter, the patents working laws varied with each country( Patent working law-which meant that the product had to be worked/manufactured in that country or patent would lapse). According to Gillette counsel and sells dirctor Pelham England did not have such patent law. That meant that Gillette did not have to worry about any foreign patent issues in England. Gillette made razors and blades in the England factory after a high demand for the product was realized in England and Europe in general. So Gillette actually made razors and blades there. It was not just blades.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was talking about France and Germany when I said "those other factories" before. We know for certain that Gillette made razors in the Boston, Montreal, and Leicester plants before WWI. What I have seen no evidence of are razors made in the French or German plants from this time.

The worked patent law did apply to France and Gillette did have to hurry up and set up a factory before the Patent deadline. Gillette finally found a small place that was a old bike shop and set up the first foreign factory, just in time to save the patent from revocation.

Very minor niggle: I believe it was the Berlin plant, as you mention later, that was the one that they squeaked in under the wire, not the Paris one. Their "factory" in Paris was set up in 1905 and was their first international manufacturing facility, albeit a small one.

However, the French government figured things out few years later and ruled against the patent because Gillette really just used the factory location as stop gag to protect the patent. Gillette relocated to another location in France to make razors and blades, and they had to oblige to make both razors and blades since the french government were sticklers to this issue.....In this case Gillette most likely did not make razors in France until a few years later.

As I understand it, the finding against Gillette here was not over what was being made, but rather how much. They didn't consider the plant that shared space with the American Saddle Company to be a serious enough expression of Gillette working their patent within France. So Gillette had to expand the scale of their manufacturing efforts there in France but not necessarily the scope, and I'm still not aware of any actual evidence of French-made razors from this period.

Germany had many complex patent laws and Gillette had many patents filed there. Gillette was not aware of patent cut off dates due to the many patent filings and the entanglement of infringement/suit court cases. However it did not matter since German law provision stated that if " large demand was supplied goods made abroad" the patent would not be working and revoked. So Gillette could not make razors elsewhere and send them there since it would be a patent working issue. Gillette had no other choice than to make a factory in Germany that made razors and blades. In 1908 razors and blades were being made and shipped out of Berlin factory. At this time the finishing touches were put in the Leicester factory too......so it seems that all 3 countries, England, Germany and France did make razors, not just blades. France did start at a later date due to the working patent issue.

That may be what McKibben and Adams say -- though I don't see McKibben specifically saying anything more than blades, so is it really just Adams here or am I missing a page reference? By the way, McKibben cites Adams as the source of much of his material on this early period so they really shouldn't be taken to be separate confirmation anyway.

Anyway, that may be what they say, but as far as I know they're the only sources for that statement, and if it were actually true you'd think we'd have seen at least one example from either plant by now. So while it's certainly possible that they did make razors these factories before the war -- and I'd be totally happy to be wrong here -- I don't see much reason to believe that it's at all likely that they did.

 

[thekinge]

Sounds safe for sure, but i would hate to be Wrongfully Convicted of a Crime i didn't commit or loose the case because i cant afford a good lawyer or even Defend myself /, Like so many have died in the Death Penalty that shouldn't have, i don't mind it safe but i am totally against Capitol Punishment, No one has a right to take a life so why should the Government decide they can? They Bible does say an Eye for an Eye, and it also states that Thou shall not kill, Meaning an Eye for an Eye has its Limitations as we all know the Bible does not Contradict itself So an Eye for an Eye is the Limit as long as it doesn't cause Death. Anyways getting back to the Nice Lovely Double stamped Gillette Logo Single Ring )

Vargas, we will park this topic for discussion during our meeting in Singapore Meanwhile, here are the pictures of my British SR set as promised:











Although the starting letter of the serial number in the fourth picture above looks like 'F', it is actually 'E'; the bottom horizontal line in the 'E' has faded.

 

[MacDaddy]

Although the starting letter of the serial number in the fourth picture above looks like 'F', it is actually 'E'; the bottom horizontal line in the 'E' has faded.

I would certainly take your word for it, but are you sure of that? The "F" would actually match pretty nicely with my theory about the prefixes and the presence of the "G-inside-D" mark, which we believe was most likely specific to plated imports to France.