Simpson Brushes | Tell Me True | Is Mashing Bad?

[rudyt]

you should go on eBay and buy every big maker vintage brush with a donut and comb it out and resell it for three times what you bought it for

Sorry, I have no interest in being a flipper, nor do I resell my own brushes.

I have no doubt that undamaged vintage brushes sell for 3x what damaged ones sell for, but I think the vintage brushes with donut holes have just been *used* a LOT more, not necessarily damaged by doing circles.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Depends on the brush. Some brushes have low enough density that they lay flat if you just get them wet. If you spread a Very dense brush to 90 degrees The knot might rip in half then and there.

Just like you wouldn’t buy a first time driver a Lamborghini And expect them to drive it safely and treat it properly, There’s a learning curve with most premium items. If you buy them before you learn how to properly take care of these items you’re going to have a bad time. The same reason we don’t recommend someone who’s never stropped a straight razor before go out and buy a $300 Kanoyama. I’d be curious how many people out there have irreplaceable brushes that are worth hundreds of dollars who would take the stance that they paid for it so they’re going to mash it all they want because that wont damage it. It’s the same as a teenager who just got his license thinking he can take his dad‘s Mustang up to 130 on a city street and nothing bad will come of it. It’s faulty generalization. I treat my brushes this way and because nothing bad has happened yet it means nothing bad can happen as a consequence of this treatment. And then when it inevitably does eventually happen it’s not the treatment, that was a bad brush.


Or trying to argue that knots eventually break from use, but it’s not related to how roughly they are used... how much stress and strain they’re put under. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of mechanics. Material fails because of stress and strain. Significantly increasing the amount of Stress and strain significantly increases failure rate. What that translates to is a brush lasting for five years of use instead of fifty.


I’m kind of boggled that I have to actually argue over whether or not putting something (which we have agreed will eventually break) under increased load increases the chances of its breaking and reduces the usable life expectancy.

You don’t build a bridge to support two lanes of traffic, and run four lanes of traffic on it every day because someone made a mistake and painted four lanes on it and it didn’t fall down during the week it took for someone to find the mistake. And point to it to reduce safety standards for four lane bridges. And when the “four lane bridges “ built using your reduced standards fall down blame the guys who sold you the beams and told you they could only support two lanes of traffic for selling defective beams.

 

[Icebear]

I only have a single brush that started a little "donutting". It's a 15+ year old Shavemac best. And it only started when I was moving and had my regular rotation of brushes in storage and used that Shavemac every day without drying in between for approx. 6 month. I am face lathering exclusively and I am pretty gentle on my brushes. Once I am finished with my two pass lathering the lather is only 1/2 way down into the knot. Yes, I am swirling when I build the lather but when I hear "mashing", I guess you use undue force on the natural hairs.
As with the oil change argument for a car, everyone invests the care they like to maximize the life expectancy of the product or not. If they rough it up because they don't particularly like it anyway and will sell it at some point of time, then the brush gets mashed and will suffer sooner than later.

Be gentle on your badger

 

[Jut]

I guess it really all depends on what you mean by "mash it." When I think "mash it" i think of using excessive force.

Ive owned quite a few Simpsons. I doubt Ive ever followed their recommendations when using them, because Ive never paid any attention to their recommendations. I just use them in a normal (to me) manner, and I've never had any reason "to mash"/use excessive force when using one.

All my Simpsons are doing fine, and pretty much look the same now as when I purchased them.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[Jut]

Plus, why would you want to "mash" a simpson. They are all pretty densely packed brushes, and i would think mashing one against your face would be uncomfortable. If you are buying a Simpson in anything but pure, mashing would defeat the purpose of buying a higher end brush (assuming your buying a high end brush for soft tips etc...)

If you want to be roughed up by your brush, just buy one in pure...it would be cheaper and you would exert much less effort in getting roughed up by your brush.

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[SliceOfLife]

That. Dense brushes kind of lend themselves to being treated better by their nature

 

[BigJ]

Plus, why would you want to "mash" a simpson. They are all pretty densely packed brushes, and i would think mashing one against your face would be uncomfortable. If you are buying a Simpson in anything but pure, mashing would defeat the purpose of buying a higher end brush (assuming your buying a high end brush for soft tips etc...)

If you want to be roughed up by your brush, just buy one in pure...it would be cheaper and you would exert much less effort in getting roughed up by your brush.

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Great point!!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I suppose some depends on what one means by mashing...

I don't particularly distinguish between splaying sufficiently and mashing; perhaps I should.

Recently I've been paying more attention to the degree to which I splay my brush. Other than the Omega Evo I don't think I'm going far enough into "the splay" or "the mash" to damage the knot; that's just based on what I've read in this thread. The Evo seems to require a good bit more mashing in order to perform as I want it to, but I'm not at all sure I'm damaging it.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

Exactly. When is splaying mashing and when do circles become twisting?

Any amount of use is damaging the brush. Putting soap on it, no matter how well we rinse, probably damages it.

The distinction is that we KNOW brushes last 25, 50 years or more of regular, even daily use without demonstrable damage or damage that impacts their function if a little care is given to avoid the things that Simpson and other makers suggest you avoid. We know that within a few years, in some cases months, of daily use, damage will appear if you don't. We also know that a big way this damage manifests is as shedding that develops after dozens or hundreds of uses, rather than when the brush is new.

It's up to the user to take that knowledge and decide if they want to take better care of their brush or not. But arguing that damage to the hair caused by a manner of use that the user could have avoided is the fault of the manufacturer; is absurd.

 

[Scrape&Splash]

Three valuable lessons stand out from this thread:

1.) Things wear out when used.
2.) Splaying a brush is not the same as mashing it.
3.) Everyone makes mistakes till they learn, so don't get a Simpson for your first brush unless your last name is Gates or Rockefeller because you'll might damage it learning how to load, use & clean it.

You can splay any brush, but the ones that splay poorly are the ones you need to jam into your face (bad synthetics mostly) But it's difficult to even get a crappy brush these days. The last brush I bought was a FrankShave G4 for ~$16. What a great little brush. You couldn't get a better starter brush. I heard that Simpson just put out a budget synthetic called the Trafalgar - so there are two great starter options.

When I splay a good brush, I'm not reducing the distance between the tips of the bristles and the handle more than about 1/3 of the length of the bristles. I probably put more stress on the bristles drying them on the towel after shaking the brush dry, but even that doesn't seem to harm the brush because I'm doing it with reasonable care.

Simpson may just be trying to protect themselves against the hamfisted and the inexperienced. My first brush is a broken down mess - the poor thing got ridden hard and put up (literally) wet. It didn't stand a chance ;-)

 

[shaveSymptomatic]

@SliceOfLife How would you recommend drying a brush? Is shaking a brush not advisable?

 

[SliceOfLife]

That I'm not even consistent myself with. With cheap brushes I go nuts. If the knot flies out of a $8 Omega, I'm not losing any sleep.

With a brush I care about it's different.

I tend to gently squeeze the brush during rinsing and at the end of rinsing, then give it a few gently flicks before running the tips over a dry towel for most of my brushes. I think some manufacturers do advise against shaking... but I think that's more likely to let the whole knot go than to cause individual hairs to come free.


My rinsing/drying method is basically what's on Simpsons website... minus the open window.

 

[shaveSymptomatic]

That I'm not even consistent myself with. With cheap brushes I go nuts. If the knot flies out of a $8 Omega, I'm not losing any sleep.

With a brush I care about it's different.

I tend to gently squeeze the brush during rinsing and at the end of rinsing, then give it a few gently flicks before running the tips over a dry towel for most of my brushes. I think some manufacturers do advise against shaking... but I think that's more likely to let the whole knot go than to cause individual hairs to come free.


My rinsing/drying method is basically what's on Simpsons website... minus the open window.

Pretty much what I was doing, thanks.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Very old, heavily used brushes that weren't mashed:

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

This recent post was copied from another thread.

Perfectly acceptable to use circular motions whilst lathering provided the use is not over zealous or brush bristles mashed into the face.

We still recommend paint brush or back & forth strokes however to prolong the longevity of the brush.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[macintoshBR]

Paying $150+ on a brush to use only paint strokes is something that I will never understand. To each his own, though

building lather with paint strokes and a wall of Badger like the Chubby 2 sounds really awkward.

I own 8 Simpsons and use Simpsons 99% of the time, and I face lather exclusively. Never had any sort of issue whatsoever. Just press lightly and let the tips of the brush do the work, as you should do with any brush

 

[Tedolph]

Depends on the brush. Some brushes have low enough density that they lay flat if you just get them wet. If you spread a Very dense brush to 90 degrees The knot might rip in half then and there.

Just like you wouldn’t buy a first time driver a Lamborghini And expect them to drive it safely and treat it properly, There’s a learning curve with most premium items. If you buy them before you learn how to properly take care of these items you’re going to have a bad time. The same reason we don’t recommend someone who’s never stropped a straight razor before go out and buy a $300 Kanoyama. I’d be curious how many people out there have irreplaceable brushes that are worth hundreds of dollars who would take the stance that they paid for it so they’re going to mash it all they want because that wont damage it. It’s the same as a teenager who just got his license thinking he can take his dad‘s Mustang up to 130 on a city street and nothing bad will come of it. It’s faulty generalization. I treat my brushes this way and because nothing bad has happened yet it means nothing bad can happen as a consequence of this treatment. And then when it inevitably does eventually happen it’s not the treatment, that was a bad brush.


Or trying to argue that knots eventually break from use, but it’s not related to how roughly they are used... how much stress and strain they’re put under. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of mechanics. Material fails because of stress and strain. Significantly increasing the amount of Stress and strain significantly increases failure rate. What that translates to is a brush lasting for five years of use instead of fifty.


I’m kind of boggled that I have to actually argue over whether or not putting something (which we have agreed will eventually break) under increased load increases the chances of its breaking and reduces the usable life expectancy.

You don’t build a bridge to support two lanes of traffic, and run four lanes of traffic on it every day because someone made a mistake and painted four lanes on it and it didn’t fall down during the week it took for someone to find the mistake. And point to it to reduce safety standards for four lane bridges. And when the “four lane bridges “ built using your reduced standards fall down blame the guys who sold you the beams and told you they could only support two lanes of traffic for selling defective beams.

Sounds like you are making a case for inexpensive boars.

Beat the hell out of them and who cares? You paid less than $20.00 for it and got great performance while it lasted?

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Pondering the information presented in this thread has caused me to be more aware of how I use my brushes.

You may think that a good thing and maybe it is, but I'm not so sure.

If I were thirty two it might be, but who's going to care about my brushes when I kick the bucket?

Not saying I want to abuse them, and I certainly appreciate the materials management perspective presented so well by @SliceOfLife, but my brushes are tools for me to use and objects for me to enjoy rather than think much about.

Having said that, I am now aware of how much I'm mashing or not mashing as I face lather. My point is I don't much like being aware of the brush's needs as opposed to being aware of enjoying the process. At the same time I believe I can enjoy the process and also take better care of my tools once I adjust to mashing less, but it's gotta become a thoughtless and autopilot habit first.

I hope that makes sense to someone other than me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[fhalden]

I believe I can enjoy the process and also take better care of my tools once I adjust to mashing less, but it's gotta become a thoughtless and autopilot habit first.

I hope that makes sense to someone other than me.

It makes perfect sense, and is my reaction as well.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[MntnMan62]

I may not face lather but I do spend a great deal of time working the lather that I built in a bowl into my beard. You could say I bowl and face lather. But I don't see why anyone would need to mash the brush into their face. I don't mash the brush in the bowl and I don't do it on my face either. If most brush manufacturers advise against the mashing practice then there must be a good reason. Frankly, it makes sense that it could cause hairs to break. I've seen it with a boar brush that I bought recently. It has a much taller loft than any of my other brushes. While I don't mash per se, I was a little more rought with this brush than I am with my others and sure enough I lost a fair number of hairs during my first couple of shaves with it. But once I got the hang of how to use such a tall loft, I've had no problems building lather and no problems with breaking hairs.