I just wanted to revive this thread so the op might see it and weigh in.
Significance of patent numbers instead of dates on ABC Pocket Edition cases
- Thread starter MacDaddy
- Start date
I'll add to this old post in case someone is looking for info on ABC razors. This is a poor photo of what is on the back of my shell pattern ABC razor box that came with a razor that had serial #B939649. The back has patent dates but also a small box off to the left side with Great Britain, Patent number and Reg. number.
Bob
Bob
Once again I wish to bump this thread. I was wondering if there was any conclusive information one way or another.
It isn't just the ABC Pocket Edition cases which have the patent numbers - there is also AT LEAST ONE example of a 460-B Standard set with patent numbers instead of dates. I will post photos once my son comes to visit and brings his cell phone - which has a decent camera built-in (my cell phone is a veteran and the camera doesn't do close-ups well at all).
The razor which came inside of this Standard Set No. 460-B dates from 1912 - serial number C201426. The only other identification clue is that the lid liner has no visible trace of a stenciled-on Gillette logo of any kind, but does have the faint remaining trace of a small rectangle having once been attached. My guess is that this set had a fabric logo patch fixed onto the lid liner instead of being stenciled.
About this thread ~
Have there ever been any answers (or strong assumptions) as to
the specifics of why some Pocket Edition have patent numbers
rather than dates? Or when this began? Anything at all?
Cheers,
Kevin
Have there ever been any answers (or strong assumptions) as to
the specifics of why some Pocket Edition have patent numbers
rather than dates? Or when this began? Anything at all?
Cheers,
Kevin
I am with Kevin on this topic. I'd very much like to see more steps toward resolution of this mystery - the differences between engravings on the bottoms of early Gillette metal cases (and not just the pocket edition ones, by the way.)
Very best wishes to all ~ Havard
Very best wishes to all ~ Havard
R
romsitsa
It's very hard to say wether or not there was a razor swap in a ABC set found today, so it's tough to say why and when this change was made.
Some observances:
The vast majority of Patent Nr. cases contain razors from C (US), Pc (Canada) and the ellusive G series.
Majority of the razors have the later machined comb and "pillar" type handles.
Never saw a Patent Nr. case with Empire motif.
The Patent Nr. cases have a different KCG signature, this change also took place on 460B cases.
Some Patent date cases have the small rectangle with Brit. Pat. numbers, these contain G series razors.
All "British" sets (G series ABC and E/F series Single Rings in 460B sets) have the Brit. Pat. nr. on the case.
Adam
Some observances:
The vast majority of Patent Nr. cases contain razors from C (US), Pc (Canada) and the ellusive G series.
Majority of the razors have the later machined comb and "pillar" type handles.
Never saw a Patent Nr. case with Empire motif.
The Patent Nr. cases have a different KCG signature, this change also took place on 460B cases.
Some Patent date cases have the small rectangle with Brit. Pat. numbers, these contain G series razors.
All "British" sets (G series ABC and E/F series Single Rings in 460B sets) have the Brit. Pat. nr. on the case.
Adam
Thank you Adam for this wealth of information!
I have checked the examples in my collection, and with only one exception (in which it is obvious that the case was added at a later time), all that you say is correct.
Am I correct in assuming that the C (US) numbers are all late "C" numbers, after 1915?
Thank you for this information,
Cheers,
Kevin
I have checked the examples in my collection, and with only one exception (in which it is obvious that the case was added at a later time), all that you say is correct.
Am I correct in assuming that the C (US) numbers are all late "C" numbers, after 1915?
Thank you for this information,
Cheers,
Kevin
R
romsitsa
Hello Buick,
C prefix numbers for patent numbered sets range from 1912 to 1915.
Take a look at Achims example:
Significance of patent numbers instead of dates on ABC Pocket Edition cases
Significance of patent numbers instead of dates on ABC Pocket Edition cases
To me this set was clearly produced in the US but with a British patent shipper and patent numbers.
I think British authorities required the display of British patent numbers instead of dates or US patents or anything else, for an unknown reason.
G series are more interesting as these only come in patent numbered cases and usually (my guess is starting around G007000) have the Gillette diamond on the comb and cap, only seen on these G series razors.
Adam
C prefix numbers for patent numbered sets range from 1912 to 1915.
Take a look at Achims example:
Significance of patent numbers instead of dates on ABC Pocket Edition cases
Significance of patent numbers instead of dates on ABC Pocket Edition cases
To me this set was clearly produced in the US but with a British patent shipper and patent numbers.
I think British authorities required the display of British patent numbers instead of dates or US patents or anything else, for an unknown reason.
G series are more interesting as these only come in patent numbered cases and usually (my guess is starting around G007000) have the Gillette diamond on the comb and cap, only seen on these G series razors.
Adam
R
romsitsa
Sorry typo, G07000.
Adam
Adam
Adam, thank you, again!
I will re-compare mine , and see how they fit
into the scheme of things.
Is there any record that shows that the metal
Pocket Edition cases were actually produced by
the Canadian and British factories? Is it possible
that they were produced by A.B.C. for Gillette
and shipped to Canada and England? Then after
the 1917 fire, the equipment was moved to the
U.S. Gillette factory? Somehow, this would make
more sense to me.....
Cheers,
Kevin
I will re-compare mine , and see how they fit
into the scheme of things.
Is there any record that shows that the metal
Pocket Edition cases were actually produced by
the Canadian and British factories? Is it possible
that they were produced by A.B.C. for Gillette
and shipped to Canada and England? Then after
the 1917 fire, the equipment was moved to the
U.S. Gillette factory? Somehow, this would make
more sense to me.....
Cheers,
Kevin
R
romsitsa
Hello Kevin,
good questions. We know that ABC started to produce pocket sets with thin, latched cases and stamped combs. Later, my guess is around 1911, the latch was deleted and the comb was replaced with machined ones, I assume to produce sturdier razors and cases.
Question is did ABC introduce these changes or did they receive some new parts from Boston? ABC was a metal stamping company so modifying the case design shouldn't have been a problem.
The new combs required different machines and Boston basically produced the same type for Single rings already, so maybe they supplied ABC with machined combs?
Like the blade banks, produced by Boston and supplied to all other companies?
I have only a few ABC sets, so comparison is mostly based on photos found online, but the G series show sublte differences between cases and razors.
My G003146 basket weave set with pillar type handle is similar to any other ABC pocket edition (from around 1911-12) except it has a G... serial and the small rectangle with Brit.Pat. on the case. It has a four rivet push button thick case.
G072457 on the other hand has an even thicker shell patterned case (thicker than a shell pattern non ABC pocket case) from thicker material, has the patent numbers listed. The comb is thicker than on any other ABC and has the double diamond stamp. The blade locating pins are shorter than on any other ABC razor I saw. It came with the one ring tapered pillar style handle.
Both have the same style of serial numbering, but it's highly unlikely that they were produced on the same machines.
Browsing Ebay, it looks like there are many sets similar to G072457, almost exclusively found in Europe, so I think the British factory actually produced ABC style razors and cases somewhen.
Canadian ABC sets are even rarer here in Hungary, so I can't comment on these, except that the design of Canadian Empire case is different from the ABC Empire case.
Adam
good questions. We know that ABC started to produce pocket sets with thin, latched cases and stamped combs. Later, my guess is around 1911, the latch was deleted and the comb was replaced with machined ones, I assume to produce sturdier razors and cases.
Question is did ABC introduce these changes or did they receive some new parts from Boston? ABC was a metal stamping company so modifying the case design shouldn't have been a problem.
The new combs required different machines and Boston basically produced the same type for Single rings already, so maybe they supplied ABC with machined combs?
Like the blade banks, produced by Boston and supplied to all other companies?
I have only a few ABC sets, so comparison is mostly based on photos found online, but the G series show sublte differences between cases and razors.
My G003146 basket weave set with pillar type handle is similar to any other ABC pocket edition (from around 1911-12) except it has a G... serial and the small rectangle with Brit.Pat. on the case. It has a four rivet push button thick case.
G072457 on the other hand has an even thicker shell patterned case (thicker than a shell pattern non ABC pocket case) from thicker material, has the patent numbers listed. The comb is thicker than on any other ABC and has the double diamond stamp. The blade locating pins are shorter than on any other ABC razor I saw. It came with the one ring tapered pillar style handle.
Both have the same style of serial numbering, but it's highly unlikely that they were produced on the same machines.
Browsing Ebay, it looks like there are many sets similar to G072457, almost exclusively found in Europe, so I think the British factory actually produced ABC style razors and cases somewhen.
Canadian ABC sets are even rarer here in Hungary, so I can't comment on these, except that the design of Canadian Empire case is different from the ABC Empire case.
Adam
R
romsitsa
From left to right:
A902809 (latched thin case with patent dates), G003416 and G072457
Case thickness
Quite different caps
Varying thickness
Assembled
Adam
A902809 (latched thin case with patent dates), G003416 and G072457
Case thickness
Quite different caps
Varying thickness
Assembled
Adam
R
romsitsa
Some food for thought on what could have been supplied from ABC or Boston to other companies/factories:
"British" Single rings and ABC sets mostly have the line logo. As this symbol was registered as the Gillette trade mark in the UK, it appears on the new factory opened around 1920? (Don't have the exact information at hand), one could assume this version of the logo should be related to the UK.
But then here it is in an US ad form 1911, and on a post 1914 pocket edition (smooth bottom) stating it was made in the USA.
Why were two logos used and when?
And here Achims "British" ABC set, looks like a regular US one, except the head is double stamped with the line logo and it has the very short locating pins and rod.
Was the head produced in the UK and other parts supplied by the US company/ABC or did ABC switch to short pins and line logo at some point to supply the British company?
Adam
"British" Single rings and ABC sets mostly have the line logo. As this symbol was registered as the Gillette trade mark in the UK, it appears on the new factory opened around 1920? (Don't have the exact information at hand), one could assume this version of the logo should be related to the UK.
But then here it is in an US ad form 1911, and on a post 1914 pocket edition (smooth bottom) stating it was made in the USA.
Why were two logos used and when?
And here Achims "British" ABC set, looks like a regular US one, except the head is double stamped with the line logo and it has the very short locating pins and rod.
Was the head produced in the UK and other parts supplied by the US company/ABC or did ABC switch to short pins and line logo at some point to supply the British company?
Adam
I recently acquired this ABC set. The razor, serial number C621763, dates 1915. It has the large Gillette diamond and arrow logo on the comb/guard's right underside. It is the thickened case, BUT WITH THE PATENT NUMBERS, rather than the dates, on the case bottom.
This set is from the early transitional period of the change over from the American Button Company to Gillette's manufacture. At this time Gillette was providing Ball end razors to ABC for use in the sets. The razor and case are a perfect match, so I am certain it is original, and not a "marriage set". The fact that this case has the patent number stamping on the case bottom, as opposed to the patent dates AND MOST OBVIOUSLY IS NOT A BRITISH SET..... leads me to believe that at least some cases were made by the A.B.C. for shipment to England.....
Cheers,
Kevin
This set is from the early transitional period of the change over from the American Button Company to Gillette's manufacture. At this time Gillette was providing Ball end razors to ABC for use in the sets. The razor and case are a perfect match, so I am certain it is original, and not a "marriage set". The fact that this case has the patent number stamping on the case bottom, as opposed to the patent dates AND MOST OBVIOUSLY IS NOT A BRITISH SET..... leads me to believe that at least some cases were made by the A.B.C. for shipment to England.....
Cheers,
Kevin
Last edited:
R
romsitsa
Hello Buick,
why do you exclude the possibility of this being an English (sent to England) set? Although no Brit.Pat. Ball end was found, and usually British sets are marked that way, the British company was up and running during the war years and it would be strange if they would have only sold ABC sets and Single rings.
Adam
why do you exclude the possibility of this being an English (sent to England) set? Although no Brit.Pat. Ball end was found, and usually British sets are marked that way, the British company was up and running during the war years and it would be strange if they would have only sold ABC sets and Single rings.
Adam
Adam ~
I think I miss stated what I meant.....
England entered World War I in 1914, and they had no factory until well after the war.
The serial number on this razor is American..... 1915. This set was obviously made
in the U.S. -- The case indicates it's destination to England, IF IN FACT THE SUPPOSITION
IS TRUE, that patent numbered cases are British.
There is no definite proof that I have read that the A.B.C. style cases were ever produced in
England. I have always felt that they were produced by the A.B.C. for the English factory.
The case making equipment was very expensive, and simply did not justify the expenditure.
The handles of the English A.B.C. style sets (Empire, Scroll, Flower, Shell) all have minor
differences, leading me to believe that they were cast in England, which was an easy process.
Gillette did not produce the cases themselves, until after the A.B.C. fire (1917), when I believe
they salvaged the equipment to make the cases. Most contracts, at that time, were for
ten year periods, and I believe that Gillette just slowly assumed production between 1916 or 1917, before the ABC contract ended (theoretically in 1919). I believe that they first used the equipment to make the 1917 Service Sets.....Most likely they had paid for the case making equipment for the A.B.C., so had a claim on it. This is all just my supposition, but it is as good as any other I have read. The
dates are all approximate, as to the best of my knowledge, the A.B.C. transition to the Gillette made Pocket Editions took the period between 1916 - 1917 to evolve.....
Cheers,
Kevin
I think I miss stated what I meant.....
England entered World War I in 1914, and they had no factory until well after the war.
The serial number on this razor is American..... 1915. This set was obviously made
in the U.S. -- The case indicates it's destination to England, IF IN FACT THE SUPPOSITION
IS TRUE, that patent numbered cases are British.
There is no definite proof that I have read that the A.B.C. style cases were ever produced in
England. I have always felt that they were produced by the A.B.C. for the English factory.
The case making equipment was very expensive, and simply did not justify the expenditure.
The handles of the English A.B.C. style sets (Empire, Scroll, Flower, Shell) all have minor
differences, leading me to believe that they were cast in England, which was an easy process.
Gillette did not produce the cases themselves, until after the A.B.C. fire (1917), when I believe
they salvaged the equipment to make the cases. Most contracts, at that time, were for
ten year periods, and I believe that Gillette just slowly assumed production between 1916 or 1917, before the ABC contract ended (theoretically in 1919). I believe that they first used the equipment to make the 1917 Service Sets.....Most likely they had paid for the case making equipment for the A.B.C., so had a claim on it. This is all just my supposition, but it is as good as any other I have read. The
dates are all approximate, as to the best of my knowledge, the A.B.C. transition to the Gillette made Pocket Editions took the period between 1916 - 1917 to evolve.....
Cheers,
Kevin
R
romsitsa
Hello Buick,
without having a large enough sample at hand, it's hard to track down the development of the cases.
The patent numbered ones have a different KCG signature than the dated ones, so it would be logical to assume that this change happened to all ABC and 460 cases, not just to the ones that were sent to England. This could mean that US ABC sets were also packed in patent numbered cases at the end of the ABC series. There were some C series ABC razors on the bay in patent numbered cases, but it wasn't possible to determine wether these were US sets made for England or "generic" US sets.
The late? British ABC cases are thicker and made from thicker matierial then earlier examples, it would be nice to examine some US ABC sets from around 1914? to see wether these also have a heavier case or not.
Adam
without having a large enough sample at hand, it's hard to track down the development of the cases.
The patent numbered ones have a different KCG signature than the dated ones, so it would be logical to assume that this change happened to all ABC and 460 cases, not just to the ones that were sent to England. This could mean that US ABC sets were also packed in patent numbered cases at the end of the ABC series. There were some C series ABC razors on the bay in patent numbered cases, but it wasn't possible to determine wether these were US sets made for England or "generic" US sets.
The late? British ABC cases are thicker and made from thicker matierial then earlier examples, it would be nice to examine some US ABC sets from around 1914? to see wether these also have a heavier case or not.
Adam
Hi folks, I have a transition set from early 1915 if it helps. It has the gunmetal finish, thick case, patent numbered case with a Ball End Old Type razor. The serial number is C 670871 as far as I can tell. It is pictured next to a silver plated 1909 ABC set.
Here they are side by side-
I hope this helps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here they are side by side-
I hope this helps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
