Significance of patent numbers instead of dates on ABC Pocket Edition cases

[MacDaddy]

Does anyone know the significance of the fact that some ABC Pocket Edition cases show patent numbers with the various countries on the back instead of the more common patent dates? My original guess was that it was just a change over time -- that at some point near the end of the time ABC was making the sets they switched the inscription. But now I'm not as sure.

The first one I got was a gunmetal Plain case with a gold Shell razor with the serial number C233339, which would make it a 1912. But just recently I acquired a set with a silver Plain case that also had the patent numbers on the back. The razor was a Canadian thin-handled ball-end with a "PC" patent number, which I'd always thought indicated an early run out of the Montreal plant. It's certainly possible that the razor and case aren't a match, but still...

I need to go through the rest of my Pocket Editions now to see how the dates line up, but I thought I'd open the question up to the rest of you folks to see if anyone else has any ideas or other date points to add.

Here's a picture of this latest case for folks who haven't seen one with the patent numbers. Notice that it also adds Mexico to the list of countries. The second image is an older ABC case with the patent dates for comparison.

 

[MacDaddy]

Wow, I hadn't noticed until just now that the two signatures on either case are also pretty substantially different, too.

 

[Old Man Army]

Just when I thought I had my RAD under control...Very nice cases, thanks for sharing.

 

[alex2363]

Porter, what are you asking? arent they other country patents?

 

[BigFoot]

Wow, I hadn't noticed until just now that the two signatures on either case are also pretty substantially different, too.

I never noticed that either. Big difference in the sigs.

 

[IronHammer]

I have an Empire set arriving tomorrow. I will definitely be looking closely at the bottom of the case! Thanks for pointing that out, Porter.

 

[MacDaddy]

Porter, what are you asking? arent they other country patents?

I'm asking if anyone knows why most of the ABC cases have patent dates on them, but some have patent numbers. Or if anyone with a case that has the patent numbers on it could share the date of the razor that came in it.

I still think the most likely explanation is that they changed the inscription design towards the end of the time ABC was making the sets, but this latest set I got threw a bit of a monkey wrench into that because of the serial number on the razor. It may just be a mismatched razor and case, or maybe my original guess was wrong and there's a different reason for the different inscriptions.

 

[alex2363]

I'm asking if anyone knows why most of the ABC cases have patent dates on them, but some have patent numbers. Or if anyone with a case that has the patent numbers on it could share the date of the razor that came in it.

I still think the most likely explanation is that they changed the inscription design towards the end of the time ABC was making the sets, but this latest set I got threw a bit of a monkey wrench into that because of the serial number on the razor. It may just be a mismatched razor and case, or maybe my original guess was wrong and there's a different reason for the different inscriptions.

Now you have me thinking, good question>>>>>>>>>>>>>>brb, Im looking into this one.

 

[IronHammer]

Well, my set arrived and it turns out it is a 1911 (Serial #B898??6) and the bottom of my case has the patent dates instead of the patent numbers.

 

[alex2363]

Well, my set arrived and it turns out it is a 1911 (Serial #B898??6) and the bottom of my case has the patent dates instead of the patent numbers.

Wow, Im still looking ......................

 

[MacDaddy]

Thanks guys. The other two Canadian thin-handled ball-ends that I have right now both came in post-ABC Pocket Edition cases without the rear inscription, but I'll have a look at my other ABC Pocket Edition sets and see what their serial numbers are.

I found this other set with patent numbers on the case that sold on eBay recently (Basketweave case w/ Shell razor). I think I can make out the serial number as C422?7? (click to see the large images):





And this one, Floral case w/ Shell razor with the serial number C467??? (sorry, that's as big as the pics get):

 

[alex2363]

I see 837......887...really faded as heck. I zoomed 200%

 

[MacDaddy]

Yeah, I think you're right that it's one of those. Either way, both of those two razors would still probably fall into the first half of 1914 just based on the serial range we have. So if the case inscription changed at some point in time we've got one as early as the later part of 1912 (my gunmetal set) and these two near when I believe they stopped the ABC sets.

Does anyone have a set that's later than C233339 with the patent dates still on the case? Or an earlier set with the patent number case?

 

[Intrigued]

Does anyone know the significance of the fact that some ABC Pocket Edition cases show patent numbers with the various countries on the back instead of the more common patent dates? My original guess was that it was just a change over time -- that at some point near the end of the time ABC was making the sets they switched the inscription. But now I'm not as sure.

The first one I got was a gunmetal Plain case with a gold Shell razor with the serial number C233339, which would make it a 1912. But just recently I acquired a set with a silver Plain case that also had the patent numbers on the back. The razor was a Canadian thin-handled ball-end with a "PC" patent number, which I'd always thought indicated an early run out of the Montreal plant. It's certainly possible that the razor and case aren't a match, but still...

I need to go through the rest of my Pocket Editions now to see how the dates line up, but I thought I'd open the question up to the rest of you folks to see if anyone else has any ideas or other date points to add.

Here's a picture of this latest case for folks who haven't seen one with the patent numbers. Notice that it also adds Mexico to the list of countries. The second image is an older ABC case with the patent dates for comparison.

I have five ABC sets that all have dates on them like your case here.

I'm asking if anyone knows why most of the ABC cases have patent dates on them, but some have patent numbers. Or if anyone with a case that has the patent numbers on it could share the date of the razor that came in it.

I still think the most likely explanation is that they changed the inscription design towards the end of the time ABC was making the sets, but this latest set I got threw a bit of a monkey wrench into that because of the serial number on the razor. It may just be a mismatched razor and case, or maybe my original guess was wrong and there's a different reason for the different inscriptions.

I have another monkey wrench for you.





This is Gillette (plain bottom) Flower pattern case with an ABC razor that dates to 1911. It's pretty clear to me that Gillette had some left over ABC razors that they put in their own cases some years later. This is going to make it very hard to pin down dates of cases using the razor serial numbers.

 

[Mark1966]

Just dug mine out:

Gold Empire - plain bottom
Silver Floral - plain bottom
Silver Empire - patent numbers
Silver Basket Weave - patent numbers
Gunmetal smooth - patent numbers
Silver Basket Weave - patent dates (x4)
Gunmetal smooth - patent dates
Silver smooth - patent dates
Gunmetal Empire - patent dates
Silver Empire - patent dates (x2)

Waiting on a couple of others to arrive. Will update when they do.

 

[mr-razor]

that´s what I´ve found with Patent numbers:

1) No 500 with thin ball end handle (PC 84 544) Canadian Set
2) No 500-A with Shell Pattern handle (C 234 445) British Set
3) No 501 with Shell Pattern handle (C 567 633) Diamond and G in D stamp on base plate
4) No 503 with Shell Pattern handle (C 500 644)
5) No 503-B with Shell Pattern handle (C 513 702)

so the result of my sets is:

the most Pocket Editions with Patent numbers comes with a Shell Pattern handle
the most Pocket Editions with Patent numbers are from 1914

the No 500-A Gun Metall Set is a british set (from the outer shipper), so possibly the sn is not from 1912

 

[Cal1961]

Don't know if this helps. I have a shell case with patent dates. The razor that came with it is C307333

 

[MacDaddy]

Thanks, everyone! Keep 'em coming. I'm collecting the information up and will pull everything together into the wiki if we can find anything interesting here.

I found another data point in a current auction up on the 'Bay -- a razor with the serial number C141155 with dates on the case.

I have another monkey wrench for you.
This is Gillette (plain bottom) Flower pattern case with an ABC razor that dates to 1911. It's pretty clear to me that Gillette had some left over ABC razors that they put in their own cases some years later. This is going to make it very hard to pin down dates of cases using the razor serial numbers.

Yes, I've seen several sets like that one and I'm not sure how exactly to place them. It's worth noting that even though the headliner has a printed logo rather than the label, it's the older style case with four rivets holding the top and bottom latch pieces rather than just the two on the lid.

Waiting on a couple of others to arrive. Will update when they do.

Thanks, Mark. Could you add your serial numbers, too?

the No 500-A Gun Metall Set is a british set (from the outer shipper), so possibly the sn is not from 1912

Hmm. I'd be very interested to see your shipper, too. Does it indicate that it was made in England or does it just have the British price?

I got my set from a seller in the US, but I wouldn't be able to place it beyond that. But its serial number is so close to yours, and is exactly the same. I've always thought it would have made sense if they were making larger batches of the same sort of razors together. Beyond just the fact that it would be easier to run an assembly line that way, there are the practices like stamping the shippers with the serial number that I would think would be a massive pain to do unless they were assembling and packing the sets all the way to completion.

Don't know if this helps. I have a shell case with patent dates. The razor that came with it is C307333

Certainly interesting... Yours is the first indication of an overlap if either mine or Achim's are actually 1912 dated razors.

 

[mr-razor]

...

Hmm. I'd be very interested to see your shipper, too. Does it indicate that it was made in England or does it just have the British price?

I got my set from a seller in the US, but I wouldn't be able to place it beyond that. But its serial number is so close to yours, and is exactly the same. I've always thought it would have made sense if they were making larger batches of the same sort of razors together. Beyond just the fact that it would be easier to run an assembly line that way, there are the practices like stamping the shippers with the serial number that I would think would be a massive pain to do unless they were assembling and packing the sets all the way to completion.

...

here it is:

 

[Morman Bridge]

Hello everyone. I too have a Gunmetal Basketweave ABC case. The razor that is in it is a 1915 Ball End Old Type. Serial C670871. It looks like that razor is original to the case, because of the way the rails in the tray have formed to the shape of the razor. The case has patent numbers instead of dates. Here's a few photos of it-

View attachment 604175

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I too wonder if the razor and blade bank are original to the set.