Shapton glass HR 16k

[kelbro]

I used one for several years with no chipping issues. It was a great finisher.

Learned early on that 10 laps was all that was needed. More laps did not chip.

Not sure where the idea that the stone is causing the chipping. There was never a slurry. Looking at the surface of the stone, there were never any divots from any of the binder or abrasive being released.

Based on what I have read, I can understand why some folks would shy away from one as there are many great finishers out there. But I can confirm that I've owned two and neither caused any chipping issues.

 

[global_dev]

If anyone wants to share one of these to try with me, please let me know. Id like to give it a try and I’ll pay for postage.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I’ll keep my eyes open for one someone’s getting rid of cheap and if I get lucky I will loan it to you. Always interesting to see what it is about a hone that leads to reports of things like this. Stone cold guess on my part is little/no slurry giving a thinner edge radius that shows y axis deformation better under a slant 2d scoping. Be curious to see if that’s correct.

 

[Ridgeback]

I'm only finding the term edge fallout once online... in a blade forums post showing 500x SEM shots of a DMT 1200 edge. Could you provide a brief summary of its meaning? From that post it looks like it's the gap created with a striation on one face of the bevel crosses a striation on the other face of the bevel at the edge due to the two faces not being perfect mirrors of each other and the resulting steel failing because it's essentially dug out on one side and much thinner than the edge radius. Is that correct?

If so, yes, that's a fair distinction. But most people, looking through a loupe or a 100x scope are going to see the resulting "gap" on the 2d projection of the bevel viewed from a single side as a "microchip". "Edge fallout" gets more into the why, whereas they are only really defining the what. And I agree, that's kind of what I'm hoping people start to understand... that these chips can mean many different things and can be caused by a variety of things... in this case possibly this "edge fallout"... and so simplifying it to a binary: "I honed on this and it caused chips therefore this causes chips" is grossly misunderstanding the honing process. I'd almost call it lazy. It's noticing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and saying that the sun must move around the Earth.

Have you read anything at Knife Steel Nerds?...Larrin Thomas can explain it scientifically, he is a Master of Steel and so is his father Devin....I would have to give you the my easier for me to understand dummy down version...lol

 

[SliceOfLife]

Interesting blog. I've dug around in it and searched for "Fallout", but can't find the term anywhere. Do you happen to know what article or month it was discussed in?

 

[bluesman 7]

Fallout may be being confused with carbide pull out. This is more of a problem when large chromium carbides are present. Think D2. Most razor steels don't have large carbides. The few Gold Dollars that I've seen broken for destructive testing did have large grain size though.

 

[global_dev]

Is the same behavior attributed to the g7 17k?

 

[towliff]

Gary, I have the shapton seven 0.85um stone which shapton themselves recommended to me for razors. If you want I could post it up to you to try next week?

 

[gary haywood]

Gary, I have the shapton seven 0.85um stone which shapton themselves recommended to me for razors. If you want I could post it up to you to try next week?

Thanks for the offer to matey but I am fine with what I have what grit is that equivalent too?

if I remember rightly is it 17000 grit ?

All in all I am very happy with the 12k Naniwas Gouken and I do have the 20kG which use now and then which is pretty forgiving finisher compared to some higher grit hones .

btw like your les lat the hybrid side was one of my favourites

 

[towliff]

Thanks for the offer to matey but I am fine with what I have what grit is that equivalent too?

if I remember rightly is it 17000 grit

All in all I am very happy with the 12k Naniwas Gouken and I do have the 20kG which use now and then which is pretty forgiving finisher compared to some higher grit hones .

btw like your les lat the hybrid side was one of my favourites

No worries! I did think you would have many options for finishers

The 0.85 is stated to be about 10k grit in the dictum website.

Yes the LL looks amazing! Can’t wait to get into it properly

 

[SliceOfLife]

Fallout may be being confused with carbide pull out. This is more of a problem when large chromium carbides are present. Think D2. Most razor steels don't have large carbides. The few Gold Dollars that I've seen broken for destructive testing did have large grain size though.

This is potentially going to happen if you refine enough, again as you indicated and Stonenstrop said, it’s very steel dependent. Not related to any stone being chippy or having a wide range of grits as some people are claiming (and we still have no source on), though. Its a steel limitation, almost nothing to do with the hone beyond the hone being GOOD ENOUGH it gets a fine enough edge where this becomes noticeable.

 

[graysonhenryrussell]

As a general rule I've found with synthetics, once you reach good shave range (8k JIS for some, 10k for some, etc)... Higher grit often becomes a liability in that it's typically slower, and more demanding of the razor and user technique. I've owned razors at low grinds and softer steel that behaved better off 11k vs 13k for instance.

Based on quite a bit of digging up old threads, someone said a few years back that 16k had more varied grits than every other shapton stone (possibly tracing its origins to Sham's claims about 16k causing chipping and hypothesizing this was the case to explain his results)... and others who were using it at the time said that was a load of bologna... but true or not at least two vendors have started listing that as fact on their pages describing the stone, and this seems to have led to a lot of people believing it. I can't find anything from Shapton stating that, and what I can find in fact supports that there's no reason to believe they'd randomly take one stone from a family of stones, make an extremely significant change to the stone's makeup, and then not only not make this information public or part of the stone/family documentation, but practically falsely advertise the stone by leaving it in the family with defined specs, including particle size distribution (that it would not adhere to).

It all seems highly unlikely to me. But if someone has an actual document from Shapton confirming it is the case, I'd love to see it. Until then, I think it's irresponsible to pass around a likely false statement without supporting documentation/facts.

None of this enters into whether you'd like the stone or not, really. But can we at least see some facts before continuing making a pretty significant and damning statement about a stone that people in

As a general rule I've found with synthetics, once you reach good shave range (8k JIS for some, 10k for some, etc)... Higher grit often becomes a liability in that it's typically slower, and more demanding of the razor and user technique. I've owned razors at low grinds and softer steel that behaved better off 11k vs 13k for instance.

Based on quite a bit of digging up old threads, someone said a few years back that 16k had more varied grits than every other shapton stone (possibly tracing its origins to Sham's claims about 16k causing chipping and hypothesizing this was the case to explain his results)... and others who were using it at the time said that was a load of bologna... but true or not at least two vendors have started listing that as fact on their pages describing the stone, and this seems to have led to a lot of people believing it. I can't find anything from Shapton stating that, and what I can find in fact supports that there's no reason to believe they'd randomly take one stone from a family of stones, make an extremely significant change to the stone's makeup, and then not only not make this information public or part of the stone/family documentation, but practically falsely advertise the stone by leaving it in the family with defined specs, including particle size distribution (that it would not adhere to).

It all seems highly unlikely to me. But if someone has an actual document from Shapton confirming it is the case, I'd love to see it. Until then, I think it's irresponsible to pass around a likely false statement without supporting documentation/facts.

None of this enters into whether you'd like the stone or not, really. But can we at least see some facts before continuing making a pretty significant and damning statement about a stone that people in the future might be considering when they come across this thread?

I realize this thread is two years old but I’m going to add this for future reference. Howard at the perfect edge has used shapton 1000, 4000, 8000, 16000, 30000 honing razors for over 8 years. I personally have had razors honed by him. If fact, I have one on the way back now. His edge is the smoothest and sharpest I have ever encountered. I use the Naniwa super stones but I’m fixing to purchase the shapton as I’m tired of dealing with the warping issues with the Naniwa super stones. I going to have to read something from shapton that tells me not to use the 16000 for razors.
the future might be considering when they come across this thread?

 

[Gamma]

If someone's edges are chipping on a 16k - it's most likely that the issues are based in early work, not finishing work.

A lot of people have used those stones successfully. If someone hones a quality blade well, those stones work just fine.

Try to use very fine abrasives on on a poorly executed edge, or cheap steel, flaws become accentuated.

I've scoped GS 16k & 30k edges numerous times. never saw any indication of 'varied grit'. Quite the opposite actually, extremely uniform striations.

I remember when the 'varied grit' rumor started, came from a relatively unknown retailer's site, he had a lot of truly 'fantastic' wisdom all over his pages. He did not understand abrasives, or PSD, D10 vs D50 vs D90, etc. He read a spec sheet and made up a sales pitch based on his misinterpretations. I remember reading that specific page and thinking it made absolutely zero sense.

Carbide tear out...mmm... not seeing it. If the blade was maxamet, or Rex, or even S30V, ok - maybe there is something to look at. Not seeing it here though.

 

[graysonhenryrussell]

If someone's edges are chipping on a 16k - it's most likely that the issues are based in early work, not finishing work.

A lot of people have used those stones successfully. If someone hones a quality blade well, those stones work just fine.

Try to use very fine abrasives on on a poorly executed edge, or cheap steel, flaws become accentuated.

I've scoped GS 16k & 30k edges numerous times. never saw any indication of 'varied grit'. Quite the opposite actually, extremely uniform striations.

I remember when the 'varied grit' rumor started, came from a relatively unknown retailer's site, he had a lot of truly 'fantastic' wisdom all over his pages. He did not understand abrasives, or PSD, D10 vs D50 vs D90, etc. He read a spec sheet and made up a sales pitch based on his misinterpretations. I remember reading that specific page and thinking it made absolutely zero sense.

Carbide tear out...mmm... not seeing it. If the blade was maxamet, or Rex, or even S30V, ok - maybe there is something to look at. Not seeing it here though.

Gamma, I’m Grayson Russell and I agree with your thread. In fact I spoke with Howard at the perfect edge this morning concerning the 16,000 shapton. He doesn’t buy any of this bad publicity on the 16,000. He’s been using it for over 8 years honing razors and he finishes on a 30,000. Howard is meticulous in everything he does. He has a degree in metallurgy. I knew when I found him 8 years ago that he knew what he was doing. I used Lynn at straight razor designs for honing before Howard. Lynn puts a hell of an edge on a razor but he’s not even close to Howard. When I say this I mean no disrespect to Lynn but there’s daylight and dark in the edges. My point is Howard checks everything before he does anything. He tells me that there is not a damn thing wrong with the 16,000 and if it chipped edges, he would not be using it. I’m choosing to believe him because he’s a true expert in this field. I just ordered a set of the shapton glass to replace my Naniwa super stones at a cost of about $1100 . That’s how much I trust the man’s word.

 

[JPO]

Does anyone know if the 16k performs the same as the G7 0.85 micron?
In my experience the G7 is a good stone. I did not have any edge chipping issues. I have not tried the bench size 16k.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Dr. Matt’s video on the GS 16K.

 

[Gamma]

Had the 30k Glass and 16k Glass for a long while, used them a lot. Didn't get them to make videos, just got them for honing and lived with them for a long time. Sold them when I got the GS 7 stones because the full size plate was superfluous and having $$$ tied up on shelf warmers wasn't a good idea.

I have both the .85 and the .44um. The operate just like the 16k & 30k Glass Stones.

Back when this mess started, the rumors were exacerbated, there was a stone manufacturer that was throwing shade on Shapton (wonder why) and using high mag imagery to 'prove' their claims. A lot of people have created a lot of content based on that confirmation bias story.

I can take any blade out of my collection, zero the bevel and hone it up to .85micron followed by the .44 micron - and it'll be a good edge. No chips. I've actually done that a lot lately during my tests of another very high grit stone.... no issues.
If I was to go buy a new 16k and 30k Glass, I could finish the same blades on those two without issues.

 

[graysonhenryrussell]

Dr. Matt’s video on the GS 16K.

I’ve seen this video and I think he’s wrong. I just got a TI Spartacus back from Howard at the Perfect Edge today and it was honed by him using a 1000, 4000, 8000, 16,000, and 30,000 shapton glass stones. There’s no chips in the razor and it’s very smooth and sharp. I tell you what, you send one of your razors to Howard and have him hone it. He charges $30 including postage back. If you find any chips in the razor or you don’t like the edge, I’ll send you your $30 back.

 

[alex1921]

Is this a thread about the shapton 16k or is this an advertisement for somebody's honing services?

 

[Steve56]

If you want three opinions, ask two honemeisters ….