Setting Bevel on Japanese razor

[tinkersd]

I've done most of my own honing now for awile, just my own razors, not a hone meister yet[wait a few years!]
I have one of those Japanese non folding Str8's, a handle with a square blade welded into it, not a traditional Kamisori by any means.
I have tried and tried to put a useable bevel on it without success.
Even when I go back to 1K Norton, the 2 sides of the bevel just won't meet!!! I would be happy even if it just became a "Little Sticky" to the TPT, but nothing, is it possible that the metal is so soft and non useable as a razor any more that I'm just chaseing my tail without reason???
Has any one ever had the same type of problem with this type of Japanese Str8??
I had just done 2 run of the mill Str8's that came out beautifully, and my confidence is shaken to the core!!

Maybe I just needed a place to vent, but if I am to give up on this razor I would like to be sure it's not me BUT the razor itself. Have a great week all you wet-shaving blokes out there and a BBS to all!!

Thanks for listening, tinkersd.

 

[Gamma]

Pics would help tremendously here.

 

[professorchaos]

How are you honing it?

 

[Slash McCoy]

You have to keep going until the two bevel flats intersect along the entire length of the blade. In other words, you are giving up on the bevel before it is set.

If you are in a hurry, use a 300 or 400 grit diamond plate from Harbor Freight ($12 for the 200, 300, 400, and 600 grit set) to set an initial bevel, then spoil the edge by running it once lightly over a beer bottle, and then go to your 1k until the entire edge will shave arm hair. Otherwise, just keep going on the 1k even if it takes 3000 laps. Don't stop until you are done. DON'T STOP UNTIL YOU ARE DONE.

Want to stick with the 1k but want to speed things up and be sure you have your bevel set? Go 100 strokes on only ONE side of the blade. Feel the other side by sliding your finger across the blade and off the edge. If you detect a tiny burr along the whole edge, switch sides and repeat on the other side. Otherwise, keep going until you DO have a burr full length. Once you have raised a burr full length on both sides, give it 50 laps or so, regular alternating laps, to remove the burr. Now your bevel is set. This is the surefire method. You should only ever have to do this once.

You are, of course, keeping the spine on the hone at all times, and always flipping the EDGE outwards to flip the blade, right? You aren't allowing a shoulder or stabilizer to ride up on the hone, right? Right. Then you simply are quitting before the job is done.

 

[tinkersd]

I was honeing using 1K / 4k / 8k Nortons and as much dexterity as I could muster, useing circles and just medium pressure but it seemed as though even when both sides met the steel didn't have the right combo of hardness and strength to form a good bevel edge. Sorry about no photos, i'm lucky just to be able to e-mail and browse the blogs and such.

Thank you for your input, I don't know how to better describe the razor in question. odd looking thing though.
The blade part seems just inserted and squeezed tightly into the handle part, japanese but NOT Kamisori!
Have a good one!!

 

[Gamma]

Sounds like a frameback.
Could be the spine is worn too much to produce a good angle for the bevel.
Or not - hard to say without pix.

 

[professorchaos]

Pictures! Without pictures, this thread is useless!

 

[tinkersd]

Actually, frame back is a great way to describe it, Japapnese version of course, than you for that observation!

 

[mainaman]

Actually, frame back is a great way to describe it, Japapnese version of course, than you for that observation!

you have a frameback with fixed handle like this one right?



there are two options you need to fix w/e spine imperfection there is from poor previous honing, or the blade might be with a warp and thus will need to modify the stroke to get the whole bevel on the stone. Another thing to keep in mind those are very thin blades and tend to bend so watch the pressure.

 

[paco664]

you need to hone it like you would a normal straight.....

kamisori honing method will NOT work on these frameback razors....

and tape the spine...

 

[tinkersd]

You got good man, that's the type I"m talking about!!
I wish I knew more about computers and could've gotten an image to you gents and gotten my message across much qwicker!!!

Thank you!

 

[tinkersd]

Well I finally got the nerve to set the bevel on said razor.
I use my DMT 325 with very light strokes until it was as sharp as I could get it, mind you, it still never passed the TPT or the TNT but it did feel very sharp non the less, crazy you say!? Me too.
Then I went to my Norton 4K and polished until is shaved arm hair very well, still NOT passing any of the above tests!
I feeling I had done enough damage on the 4K I went to the Norton 8K and did very very light X strokes, not lighter than the wieght of the razor but then who really does that any way.
I went at that point to my PHIG Chinese cheapy fininsher, and honed until it shaved arm hairs as well as any other razor would at that point.
Stroped 100 times on my black latigo strop.
Finally the shave test, it did pull a bit but for some reason known only to the Gods themselves I got a very good shave!! I'm not sure how to lessen the pulling but that was yesterday and I still fell very smooth and clean shaven and why the Bl&%$dy He*L it worked out that way is beyond my experience.
I pops arm hairs well and shaves them very well also, but still is not that great at TPT?!?

I know how Bonkers it reads, but thats my story and I"M sticking to it!!

Thank you all for listneing to my rant, have a great week!!

tinkersd.

 

[Slash McCoy]

You need something in the neighborhood of 1k between your 325 and 4k. After 1k the razor should definitely pass TNT. By 4k you shouldn't even have to bother... it should have passed nicely at 1k.Shaving arm hair is something any pocketknife should do. After 1k a razor should do that nicely. If there is a question about arm hair shaving ability after your finisher, you definitely did not spend enough time on some earlier stage. The essence of progressive honing is that each and every stage must be done to completion. It is totally unrealistic to expect a later stage to do the work that should have been done by an earlier stage. When you keep this in mind and in practice, and follow it without fail, your edges will improve tremendously. Yes, you shaved successfully with your edge. But it could have been much, much better.Definitely you should regard your edge and your shave from it as a success. But it should not be the end of the road for you. Your honing journey has just begun.

 

[tinkersd]

I will at some point try to dig up my Norton 1K, it for some reason is MIA at this point in time and try again to refine the bevel of the blade in question. IT was a jump from 325DMT to 4K Norton, even with as much thought as I could put in to it the grits don't lie.
I think I know were to look for the stone but time is against me now and I will wait for a better time to continue the honing of this razor.

Thank you for your input and have a good one!

tinkersd

At Last my Arm in Complete Again!!

 

[paco664]

the TNT is only to check to see if the bevel is set.... if you perform this test after setting the bevel you are knocking yourself backwards......


set bevel... TNT... couple passes to repair damage this test does.... shave arm hair...
next stone...
when you come off the 4k you should pop arm hair easily...
next stone...
8k use more pressure than you described and more passes *(at least 30 if not more)... should pop hairs passing razor over arm...
next stone...
PHIG... passes on water paying attention to feel on steel on stone.... then put a couple drops of oil and make ~20 more passes....

strop...

shave...

tell me how it worked...