Seem to be going backwards....

[wdwrx]

I think I've got information overload or something...
I've been playing around with my "junker" trying to get it shave ready, with only limited success. I'll try to describe what I've been doing, and hopefully someone can give me a little guidance.

Hones:
1/4k JP synthetic
8k JP synthetic
12k chinese natural

Spyderco M,F,UF.

I've tried playing around with each of these setups; first I tried coming up from the JP 1K through all the way to the 12K, I set the bevel, monitored the bevel development through 100x magnification, watching that the worst micro-chips were worked out, tried to ensure that the previous scratches were polished out before moving up. Haven't seen the development of a wire edge, everything looks pretty nice under 100x magnification.
Not much success with HHT, TPT feels good (AFAIK), arm hair comes off... sorta. Not shaveable.

OK, then my Syderco hones arrive; using water, I took my poor abused blade all the way through from M up to UF using the so called "pyramid". HHT: kinda, if I waved it around at the blade. TPT; felt pretty good. Shave test: pulled a bit, no comparison to my honmeister's job on my daily shaver. Went back to the UF but with lather. Seemed to get a bit sharper; enough that I attempted a first pass shave, with a bit of pulling and scraping, not good enough to even attempt a second pass with it.

Then, I read a thread on Coticule.be about Japanese Naturals and the utilization of the broken down particles of slurry to refine the edge....(http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/238.html) thought "OK, worth a try"; realizing that I have synthetics not JNats, but based on the premise that synthetics are imitating JNats. I monitored the edge through the ol' scope, and worked my way up again, but using the slurry in the (my understanding of) same way as mentioned on that thread. I noticed that the edge developed that "sandblasted" look that my reading leads me to believe happens with a coticule, but NO sharpness to the blade. None. Felt like trying to shave arm hairs with a ripped piece of tin. Scratch that idea!

Back to the JSynthetics, conventional approach: light slurry, diluting with water as I progressed in strokes, until there was no slurry left, lightening up on the pressure near the end of each cycle. Lot'sa strokes on the 8 & 12 K stones. Checking in the scope as I go. I could tell the difference from each stage to the next, thought I could begin to feel the difference; the blade seem to smooth out and get almost sticky, most noticably on the 12k. Under the scope though, the edge seemed to show more new micro-chips, maybe what could almost be described as flaking. I decided to try the Spyderco UF, but dry. Felt just a slick as could be, glassy and smooth. I did a bunch of strokes with the blade almost hovering over the stone, and the microscope showed even further polishing on the edge, still with a bit of flakiness though. Arm hairs will come off now, but only with a bit of pressure. Not quite what I was hoping for, at all. HHT passed but not spectacularily. Not much chance at a shave with it. If anything not as sharp as the trip up the pyramid with the Spyderco stones and water.

I've been getting a bit a practice lately so my stroke has evened out, I'm starting to maybe "feel" a bit of what's going on, really starting to get the Zen part of it all. I think I have a good grasp of the "theory" of honing (Lord knows I've sure been reading up on it!). But I just can't seem to get any kind of edge I can shave with. I've done a visual comparison (100x) against three other blades, including a commercial SE blade; my honemeister's job done with Shaptons up to 30K on an Elskituna (this one showed a very distinct compound bevel, nice fine scratches and very little edge jaggedness (for lack of a better word) very similar to the SE, not quite as fine); a mystery job on a W&B "not-quite sharp enough for me" razor showing a lot of parrallel scratches and pitting and flakiness. Under the scope, my blade seems to be right in the middle of the pack, nicer looking than the W&B, which was sharper, not as refined looking as the Elskituna. It "looks" like it should shave, but it doesn't. WTH?
Any advice? Please don't tell me I need a $300 Shaptons 30K; SWMBO would freakin' kill me! (oh yeah! she's noticed the HAD now too!)

 

[holli4pirating]

If you are not getting good shaves, your edge is not even as good as an 8k can do. Nothing higher grit will help you.

If you have microchipping issues, it could be bad steel, too.

 

[SliceOfLife]

You definitely don't need any more hones.


What razor is your "junker"?


If the razor can take a good edge (Isn't pakistan steel). My first guess would be that you need to work a bit more on 1k, and slow down moving up.

 

[wdwrx]

So what should I do? Bread knife the edge off and try again from scratch? Can I just go back to the 8k? Or should I go back further to the 4K?
I was just going to do another comparison in the scope with the two blades, my Elskituna and this one, apparently it's Solingen steel so my assumption (the *** outa u and me kind) is that it's decent steel. I was wondering if I was seeing the edge deteriorate or if it was just normal for very small chips to show up at that magnification.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Why do you say "apparently" it's Solingen.


Frankly, I'd go all the way back to 1k but I wouldn't breadknife. I don't remove bevels unless I have a reason to.


I don't get microchips at 100x on any of my razors. Seraphim has some pretty nice 400x images floating around the boards and even they don't show any microchipping (just a hair of toothiness representing the level of edge refinement).

 

[wdwrx]

I was just looking again, trying to do a side by side with both blades in the field of view, and I don't think I've got micro chipping, more like micro serrations, very fine, faint jaggednes, similar but more pronounced than on the Elski. I wish i could photograph them... a pictures worth a thousand words. The good one just looks more refined; smoother, more structured scratches, the angle of the bevel looks less blunt, almost more shallow, definatley compound bevel.
Mine looks like it should be sharp.
I said "apparently" because the razor is an obscure name, not listed anywhere I can find: "Bromeso, Solingen"

 

[SliceOfLife]

Got any pictures?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Nevermind, found your restoration thread. Yes, if you're seeing microserrations at 100x, I'd say you need to spend more time at 1k. Unless you have godly eyesight, I doubt you should see serrations at 100x above 300-500grit or so.

 

[wdwrx]

Anyone got a link to those photos? I can't seem to find 'em, but I think i know the ones you are talking about.

 

[SliceOfLife]

There are some here...
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=137444

 

[wdwrx]

Back to 1K and just spend more time. Got it. Unfortunatly i can't seem to count strokes beyond about 14, my short attention span beats out my OCD by that point
I'm sure I know those pics, just can't find 'em now that I want 'em.Argh!
Thanks for the advice.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Counting passes is kind of useless. I have some razors that need a hundred passes on the same stone others are done in ten on. You really just need to get a feel for when a razor is ready to move on. Before I got really familiar with my 1200grit DMT, I would shave arm hair with 4-6 spots on the blade. Toe, heel, and 2-4 points between. I find that at ~1k it will take a little pressure to cut armhair, but not enough it irritates your skin.

 

[wdwrx]

Those aren't the one i thought you meant, though they are pretty good.
I'll have to try to find the others tomorrow. They show the edge qualities done on different hones.

That looks more like the edge of my Elski, my Bromeso shows a bit more serration. Not a lot but noticable.

So I guess that "smoothness" iI thought I was feeling wasn't really anything? Just wish-full thinking maybe?

 

[SliceOfLife]

This thread maybe?

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=138525&highlight=1200


You can have a very smooth beveled razor that isn't sharp. Skip straight to a finisher and you'll polish a bevel that doesn't meet at a sharp edge.

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks Ian.
What I've got looks like the first pic of the razors in that set. Maybe a little rougher. So I guess I'm moving up through the grits too fast?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yes. That's 4x your magnification, so if you're seeing that sawtooth at a 100x magnification, I'd say you aren't spending enough time on 1k. Make sure to finish on each stone at little or no pressure. Not just finishers. You'd be surprised how much reduced pressure improves the finish coming off low grit stones.

 

[wdwrx]

OK... maybe I've got it this time around. Spent close to 3 hours at this tonight! I tried to do what you said, Ian, and went back down to 1k, except I did do about 4 BK strokes on the edge of my 12K. That helped because it left just enough striations to act as an indicator of when and where the bevel needed work.
I kinda threw it all out and started each set with fairly heavy pressure, and lightend up as I went.
I monitored each level through the scope and tried to keep my stroke direction consistant to lay up some nice straight and even striations. I didn't move up until I'd completly erased the last grit's marks.
The micro-serrations seemed to diminish and get smaller as I went. They are still there but are very, very refined. The serrations I was seeing yesterday were like the ones left tonight by the 4K. They became even smaller @ the 8K and smaller yet at the 12K.

So the questions I've clarified to myself would be:
-Slurry, start thick(ish) and thin out gradually to pure water at each grit?
-How often should I be refreshing the slurry?
-Is the slurry stone that came with my 12k suitable to work slurry up on other grits/stones? The slurry stone that came with my 8k seems like nothing so much as a chunk of 1K. How would it effect the slurry to use 12K slurry stone on 8 or 4K stones.
-Am i crazy to try to use my Spiderco UF as a final polisher? Is it really finer than my 12K? (Joel rates it at 14/16K I think I've read)
-What does water/lather do with Spydercos; increase or decrease cutting rate?


I'll try a shave with my razor tonight, and keep ya posted. It does feel quite a bit sharper, HHT is a fail but I'm using a different kid tonight, and she needs to wash her hair. Plus her hair is sooo fine it's almost impossible to even see 'em! Arm hairs don't stand a chance and a quick test shave seemed promising. Certainly better than yesterday.
Thanks Ian! Your advice was a tremendous help. I was getting pretty frustrated. It's one thing to read about this stuff, but there is no substitute for an experienced hand.

 

[jendeindustries]

What are the synthetic hones?

 

[wdwrx]

The synthetic hones are:
1/4K combo "Japanese Water Stone" from Lee Valley Tools, quite old, one I've had for years that I bought at a garage sale.
The 8K is from Japan, but the symbols are all in Japanese so I have no idea what brand. sold as "Japanese Water Stone". The only guess I can make would be "Kito", the "k" might be a "k", or it might be something else. It's white, about 3"x8", mounted on a cedar stand.

 

[Huxley]

Just sounds to me you need to focus less on a fixed amount of laps and try and get a feel for the edge developing as sol says.

The initial bevel yes you do use pressure but as you progress you use less and when you get to the 8k and beyond stones you use little to none otherwise you risk damaging the edge, just take your time.

Why not have a look at a belgian yellow coticule and a chinese 12k, this for me is a fantastic little combo and fairly easy to get decent results given time of course.