Saint Charles soap - technically not a soap?

[jhclare]

Hi all,

I have the itch to try some new soap and and trying to decide between TOBS, Taylors, D.R. Harris, etc. I would prefer soaps easily available in the UK without having to pay large amounts for shipping, import tax etc.

So, I'm looking at Saint Charles soap on the Traditional Shaving (UK) website. The ingredients are listed as:

Aqua, Glycerin, Sodium stearate, Sorbitol, Sodium cocoyl isethionate, Sodium laureth sulphate (sles), Stearic acid, Lauric acid disodium lauryl sulfosuccinate, Sodium chloride, Bentonite, Propylene, Prunus amygdalus dulcis (sweet almond) oil, Phenoxyethanol, Kaolin, Glycol, Ricinus communis (castor) seed oil, Sodium chloride, Persea gratissima (avocado) oil, Parabens (methyl, ethyl, propyl, butyl, isobutyl), Tetrasodium edta, Titanium dioxide, Violet fragrance oil, Sandalwood fragrance oil. Color from ultramarines-lavender.​

Is this a soap?

Not that I'm that bothered - if it shaves well then I'm happy!

John

 

[Colphax]

Yes, it's a soap, and quite a good one at that. What makes you think that it isn't?

 

[jhclare]

Yes, it's a soap, and quite a good one at that. What makes you think that it isn't?

The ingredients look more like what you'd find in a detergent based beauty bar, not real soap!

 

[soapbox]

The ingredients look more like what you'd find in a detergent based beauty bar, not real soap!

Sodium stearate is soap.

 

[Shane]

It's a soap, and a very good one at that. If it weren't, I don't think myself or anyone else here would use it.

 

[jhclare]

It's a soap, and a very good one at that. If it weren't, I don't think myself or anyone else here would use it.

I wasn't disputing that it was any good, only that it was a true soap! The ingredients to my untrained eye looked more like detergent (Sodium Laureth Sulphate, etc) than soap.

How would you say it compares to Mama Bears?

John

 

[krissy]

It looks like a melt and pour base to me: if the ingredient list is accurate, the sodium stearate is the only saponified fatty acid; the remaining ingredients are all surfactants, preservatives, chelating agents, conditioning agents, etc. It's not exactly "soap" but as you say, if it feels good and gives a good shave, why not?

I agree with eyebright. It looks more like a melt and pour soap base than a "true soap".

Here is the FDA's definition,
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/ucm074201.htm

And what if it's "soap"?

Soap is a category that needs special explanation. That's because the regulatory definition of "soap" is different from the way in which people commonly use the word. Products that meet the definition of "soap" are exempt from the provisions of the FD&C Act because -- even though Section 201(i)(1) of the act includes "articles...for cleansing" in the definition of a cosmetic -- Section 201(i)(2) excludes soap from the definition of a cosmetic.
How FDA defines "soap"

Not every product marketed as soap meets FDA's definition of the term. FDA interprets the term "soap" to apply only when --

* The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and the product's detergent properties are due to the alkali-fatty acid compounds, and
* The product is labeled, sold, and represented solely as soap [21 CFR 701.20].

If a cleanser does not meet all of these criteria...

If a product intended to cleanse the human body does not meet all the criteria for soap, as listed above, it is either a cosmetic or a drug. For example:

If a product --

* consists of detergents or
* primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids and
* is intended not only for cleansing but also for other cosmetic uses, such as beautifying or moisturizing,

it is regulated as a cosmetic.

If a product --

* consists of detergents or
* primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids and
* is intended not only for cleansing but also to cure, treat, or prevent disease or to affect the structure or any function of the human body,

it is regulated as a drug.

If a product --

* is intended solely for cleansing the human body and
* has the characteristics consumers generally associate with soap,
* does not consist primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids,

it may be identified in labeling as soap, but it is regulated as a cosmetic.

Actually a "true" soap is made up of oils (many of them are commonly used cooking oils) and lye. But in order to get the lye mixed into the oils it needs to dissolved into a liquid first. And sometimes a few other ingredients are used to make them even better. But overall they are oils and lye that have gone through a chemical reaction also known as saponification to turn those individual ingredients into soap. I've been making soap for several years now using the cold process method.

 

[soapbox]

It looks like a melt and pour base to me: if the ingredient list is accurate, the sodium stearate is the only saponified fatty acid; the remaining ingredients are all surfactants, preservatives, chelating agents, conditioning agents, etc. It's not exactly "soap" but as you say, if it feels good and gives a good shave, why not?

This is all true. I was only commenting on the presence of soap, but sure, it's definitely a melt-and-pour base.

 

[Sue]

It looks like a melt and pour base to me: if the ingredient list is accurate, the sodium stearate is the only saponified fatty acid; the remaining ingredients are all surfactants, preservatives, chelating agents, conditioning agents, etc. It's not exactly "soap" but as you say, if it feels good and gives a good shave, why not?

"If" does not apply here. SCS products sold by The Traditional Shaving Company-UK, have undergone the certification process and are Certified for sale in the UK to the governing standards of that country.
Can we remove the "IF" from whether the SCS ingredients listings are acccurate?

SCS ingredients are listed on our website here: http://www.saintcharlesshave.com/ingredients.asp and on each individual product.

Many of our products are in the 'Reviews' section. With all of the recent expert banter regarding who uses what or makes whatever; of those posting, I am having a difficult time finding 'their' products in the B&B Reviews.

Sue

 

[krissy]

Sue has a good point, although I don't know what the UK has in place for regulating product labels.

However since it's imported from the states I do know that shaving soap doesn't fall into the category as a soap (which technically doesn't need an ingredient list on the package) it falls into the cosmetic category so the label must list all it's ingredients. Starting with the largest amount used to the smallest. So the ingredient list had better be correct and not be leaving ingredients out or adding ingredients not listed. And they have a great rep here in the states which is why they also have their ingredient list posted on their web site just in case anyone wants to peek at it.

 

[jhclare]

Thanks everyone.

So basically it's a soap, but with lots of other goodies added!

I've just ordered Aspect and New Spice - look forward to trying them!

John

 

[Sue]

Sue has a good point, although I don't know what the UK has in place for regulating product labels.

However since it's imported from the states I do know that shaving soap doesn't fall into the category as a soap (which technically doesn't need an ingredient list on the package) it falls into the cosmetic category so the label must list all it's ingredients. Starting with the largest amount used to the smallest. So the ingredient list had better be correct and not be leaving ingredients out or adding ingredients not listed. And they have a great rep here in the states which is why they also have their ingredient list posted on their web site just in case anyone wants to peek at it.

Matthew would be best to answer that. I will ask for his response. Regulations can also be found on Google.

Every soapmaking Q&A can be found on Google. A search will yield how to's, recipes, instructions and more. You-Tube provides photo tutorials. Anyone interested in making soap can give it a go. A basic recipe is not expensive. Anything can be used for a mold, i.e. a tupperware type container to a lined pizza or shoe box. A 'real' hardware store (not a Home Depot) generally carries lye. It's not rocket science, is fun and rewarding. Just don't try it with small children around. Lye is toxic and caustic.

If you enjoy the process, then invest in good butters and oils; tweak your recipe using a lye calculator ..... again easily fournd online.

Sue

 

[Confilo]

And don't forget the suet (tallow)

 

[GoldenMonkey]

I just recieved two cakes from Austin, and they are very soft shaving soaps, not like hard milled soaps at all. You can easily mush them into a bowl or other container, and oh my...they smell, lather, and feel wonderful. When I finish these, I'm sure I'll be ordering more...and I'm a cream kind of guy. These just may convert me to a soap-and-face-latherer.

 

[mammoo]

What has been said so far has all been quite correct.

Shaving soap (and shaving cream) are classed as cosmetics in the UK and as such need to a) be certified for sale in the UK and b) adhere to the labeling requirements. Before Sue and I were able to sell SCS products in the UK we were required to certify the products (soaps and creams) which includes submitting detailed ingredients information to a chemist who approves the product for sale.

These ingredients are the same ingredients as shown on Sue's website and mine so they are very accurate.

So, yes, the products are shaving soap .

John, I spotted your order. It will be posted tomorrow so you should receive them on Thursday. I hope you enjoy them!