Review these edges

[alex1921]

I presume you are new to honing? You just have to figure out what works for you. Any time the question comes up you can see how different people use different approaches. One guy uses a scope, one uses tactile feedback etc. You just have to figure out what works for you.
I like using magnification just so I know what's going on. Probably a professional deformation since I use an ultrasound at work a lot.
Yes, pictures dont shave but a picture can tell me when something isn't right so I use it more as a problem solver than to tell me if the shave will be smooth, that I can't tell from staring at it.
Agree with the gents above. If I saw what you saw on a synthetic edge I would go back. I am willing to bet that resetting the bevel and progressing up will improve the shave.
One more thing, if all the pics are from the same razor, same stage then it's a nice demonstration how changing the angle of viewing and lighting changes so much what you are seeing.

 

[Stapelfeld]

I presume you are new to honing? You just have to figure out what works for you. Any time the question comes up you can see how different people use different approaches. One guy uses a scope, one uses tactile feedback etc. You just have to figure out what works for you.
I like using magnification just so I know what's going on. Probably a professional deformation since I use an ultrasound at work a lot.
Yes, pictures dont shave but a picture can tell me when something isn't right so I use it more as a problem solver than to tell me if the shave will be smooth, that I can't tell from staring at it.
Agree with the gents above. If I saw what you saw on a synthetic edge I would go back. I am willing to bet that resetting the bevel and progressing up will improve the shave.
One more thing, if all the pics are from the same razor, same stage then it's a nice demonstration how changing the angle of viewing and lighting changes so much what you are seeing.

Yes all are from the same end stage of the same razor but with different angles and magnifications. Thank you for the tips my friend.

 

[JPO]

Good to hear that the shave went well. That is the most important part.

My opinion is that the reason you see a rough edge is because the 1.5k striations were not removed on your 5k. They will show up as micro chipping later in the progression, because the 8k, 12k and the 30k is not able to compensate for the 5k work that was needed. The 1.5k to 5k jump is manageable, but it's much easier if there was a stone between 1.5k and 5k.

You have two bevels, because the factory bevel is usually taller for different reasons. That does not make a big difference, you have only stiffened up the bevel a little. It's not just the tape that makes this difference.

You have a nice razor and a high end synthetic finisher. You can buy a Ferrari and only use the first and second gear, or you can utilize some of it's potential.
There is probably allot more potential if that is something you want to explore.

The bevel was already set from the factory. You have also created your own bevel. There is no need to repeat this step over and over again.

At 8k you have probably achieved 98 percent of your edge sharpness. So, the HHT after this will in my opinion not tell you much.

 

[Stapelfeld]

Good to hear that the shave went well. That is the most important part.

My opinion is that the reason you see a rough edge is because the 1.5k striations were not removed on your 5k. They will show up as micro chipping later in the progression, because the 8k, 12k and the 30k is not able to compensate for the 5k work that was needed. The 1.5k to 5k jump is manageable, but it's much easier if there was a stone between 1.5k and 5k.

You have two bevels, because the factory bevel is usually taller for different reasons. That does not make a big difference, you have only stiffened up the bevel a little. It's not just the tape that makes this difference.

You have a nice razor and a high end synthetic finisher. You can buy a Ferrari and only use the first and second gear, or you can utilize some of it's potential.
There is probably allot more potential if that is something you want to explore.

The bevel was already set from the factory. You have also created your own bevel. There is no need to repeat this step over and over again.

At 8k you have probably achieved 98 percent of your edge sharpness. So, the HHT after this will in my opinion not tell you much.


View attachment 1799250

Yeah I would like to achieve the best possible edge I can just because this is a lifetime journey for me, its fun and relaxing to hone... I have a question then and hopefully you can help me get to an answer because I am 1 year into honing straight razors so I don't know much but my question is basically if you can over hone... if I go on the 5k and just keep going will that apex on the edge eventually become brittle and break? Thank you in advance for giving me advice.

 

[JPO]

Yeah I would like to achieve the best possible edge I can just because this is a lifetime journey for me, its fun and relaxing to hone... I have a question then and hopefully you can help me get to an answer because I am 1 year into honing straight razors so I don't know much but my question is basically if you can over hone... if I go on the 5k and just keep going will that apex on the edge eventually become brittle and break? Thank you in advance for giving me advice.

In my opinion no, provided you stick to edge leading strokes and don't flex the grind.
When you have done a good job at 5k, if the previous work is good, the next stones in the progression is really fast and should be quite straight forward.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you are asking, “Can you over-hone on the 5k”, the answer is yes, but it does not matter because, the following stone in the progression, (say 8k) will cut a new, straighter edge.

You are removing steel with each stroke. An edge will only get so straight, once it is straight from heel to toe, if you continue to hone on the bevel, the edge thins and will become weak and breaks off or after a few shaves chip, breaks off.

It is very common for new honers to get a razor to shave, to find the edge only last a few shaves. It is the flexing of the weak over-honed edge on the strop that breaks it off or micro-chips.

Once the bevels are flat and meeting, polishing is about removing the deep stria so that it does not end in a jagged edge, refining/straightening the edge. So, a new edge can easily be cut, but if you do not have a full edge, you are asking a more from a higher grit stone, it may or may not fully set the bevel. You can not polish an edge that does not exist.

The easiest way to know when to stop on each stone, is to remove all the previous stria with a finer stone in the progression.

But if you over-hone on your finish stone, there is no following stone to cut a new edge. Worse, stropping will flex and stress the edge and break it or parts of it off.

While it may sound like over-honing is a big problem, it is not.

 

[JPO]

I don't think there is a clear definition for what overhoning is.
You can hone too much at any grit.
However, you are more likely to get into issues the finer you go in grit, if you do too much work.
If you skew up at 12k, the 30k stone will most likely not save you.
At 5k you are probably just removing too much steel if you do too many laps.
If you flexed the grind and started to form a burr the 8k stone might not be able to recover your edge, unless you joint the edge and bring it back on the 8k.

 

[Eben Stone]

The edge shaved pretty good! Here’s the shave for those interested… had a little sign to it IMO:

Great video!

 

[Eben Stone]

View attachment 1799250

What did you use to get this image? What magnification is this?

 

[JPO]

What did you use to get this image? What magnification is this?

This was not my photo. It was included by @Staplelfield in the start of the thread.

 

[alx gilmore]

I suggest that you only use edge leading strokes with each stone in your progression as a house rule. Visually they are the easiest way to critique your progress.

Secondly, I suggest that you should change the angle of approach with each stone in your progression. Make 45 degrees left until the scratches reach the edge with your bevel setting stone, then 45 degrees right with your middle stones until those new scratches remove the previous and now reach the edge, then straight 90 degrees until the scratches reach the edge. So here you have 3 different stones, coarse, fine, and finer all proving by canceling out the previous scratches that they did their job. Only move to the next stone when those current scratches leave their scratch pattern at a different angle all the way to the edge. There is no reason to add more and more and more passes with any singular stone, this just wastes time and steel. This way you can visually prove to yourself that the previous scratches were 'actually' removed.

All of your photos on this blog do not, however, as far as I can tell include a full set of 40 or more passes on your best strop. I don't mean to be presumptuous, but stropping is the knot that ties all of your efforts into a package. Stropping without paste or sprays proves your skill and the ability of your stones.

good work so far,

Alx

 

[alx gilmore]

On-hand pressure, aka pushing down on the blade.

You must be consistent with this. From stone to stone keeping or trying to keep the same hand pressure will improve your results from blade to blade. Pushing harder on the stone does not make the stone work better. Better is what we are looking for, not faster. Always count your strokes and be even between the sides of your razors. Stroke counts will affect your geometric product. Keeping the same amount of hand pressure for each side simplifies tracking down problems like mismatched stone-to-steel pairings and or discovering fortuitous stone-to-steel matches.

Alx

 

[Stapelfeld]

On-hand pressure, aka pushing down on the blade.

You must be consistent with this. From stone to stone keeping or trying to keep the same hand pressure will improve your results from blade to blade. Pushing harder on the stone does not make the stone work better. Better is what we are looking for, not faster. Always count your strokes and be even between the sides of your razors. Stroke counts will affect your geometric product. Keeping the same amount of hand pressure for each side simplifies tracking down problems like mismatched stone-to-steel pairings and or discovering fortuitous stone-to-steel matches.

Alx

When it comes to hand pressure I try to just use the weight of the blade, i've heard some people are really rough in the bevel setting in order to remove material quicker but I don't really agree with that even though it can work for some people. I would rather preffer to use the weight of the blade and do more passes and let the stone do the work it was intended for. As for being consistent with pressure I do use two fingers on the toe of the razor but no pressure I use them more for controlling the way the razor is moving and to make sure im contacting from heel to toe.

 

[Eben Stone]

Some bevels look bad, shave great, others look great and shave bad. Same for the so called 'tests' out there.
You can see glints of light on any edge given the right circumstances. Polished steel is very reflective, seeing glints of light might mean trouble, might mean nothing.

Hearing that is a bit discouraging. Maybe its because I'm too inexperienced, but so far all my good looking edges have shaved good, and bad looking shaved bad.

If it doesn't shave well, go back and learn to set the bevel so it shaves. Then learn to refine.

Starting with the first razor I honed, I inspect the blade after each stone/film with a 30x/60x loupe. At the beginning I would actually stop every few minutes and inspect. I wanted to visually see the results of what I was doing. That's how I learned. Now I can look at my edge and see if there are areas that need more work before moving onto the the next stone/film. I find using a loupe to be a royal pain. It's difficult to get the lighting and angle just right. I've been considering buying a $300 microscope so make it easier. But if I'm wasting my time I want to know.

 

[Stapelfeld]

Hearing that is a bit discouraging. Maybe its because I'm too inexperienced, but so far all my good looking edges have shaved good, and bad looking shaved bad.

Starting with the first razor I honed, I inspect the blade after each stone/film with a 30x/60x loupe. At the beginning I would actually stop every few minutes and inspect. I wanted to visually see the results of what I was doing. That's how I learned. Now I can look at my edge and see if there are areas that need more work before moving onto the the next stone/film. I find using a loupe to be a royal pain. It's difficult to get the lighting and angle just right. I've been considering buying a $300 microscope so make it easier. But if I'm wasting my time I want to know.

I've also thought about buying a microscope but more for the fun of it of actually looking at the edge but 300$ is a big investment, I've seen some results out of 40$ microscopes on amazon that look really good!

 

[JPO]

I've also thought about buying a microscope but more for the fun of it of actually looking at the edge but 300$ is a big investment, I've seen some results out of 40$ microscopes on amazon that look really good!

There is allot other things i would spend my money on then a microscope if the goal is just to get a good shaving edge.
There is a big step from looking at a problem to figuring out what the problem is. The solution is usually just to hone more, especially at the lower grits.

You have a Shapton 1.5k, 5k, 8k, 12k and 30k. You should be able to erase the 1.5k with the 5k, but you are asking allot from the 5k. So, getting something like a shapton glass 3k would make the job allot easier. It takes some of the guesswork out of the equation, in my opinion. Enough time on the 5k will also work, but to figure out when it is time to move on can be a little more difficult.

What you can see is only part of the full picture. If you remove enough steel just to erase the visible striation from your 1.5k, there will still be brittle and strain hardened material below, see the blue region.
So, you need to get below the blue region. This will happen to some degree at every grit level.
What can happen is you erase all of your visible scratches at each stage, and when you get to 8-12k the steels starts to fail. You might still have brittle steel that is not removed at some stage, typically at a lower grit. A microscope will just show you a chipped edge, but it will not tell you why it chipped.
The better the steel quality is the more forgiving it is. If you are dealing with hard and brittle steel this can be really important to pay attention to.

Smaller grit jumps gives you enough grit overlap at each stage to take much of the guesswork out of the equation.
I would rather spend a few bucks on a 3k and a good loupe then lower grade microscope.

Factory new steel usually needs to be honed a few times before you get to "good" steel.

 

[Christian1212]

Sort of been following this thread. I think what would be helpful is removing naturals from the equation other than the Translucent ark for final finishing. Sounds like you could use another synth to bridge the gap better to your ark - but have you tried going to the ark with your current set up from the I think 5/6k synthetic.

I think the black shadow slate + spending a lot of time looking at microscope photos is wasting some time and overcomplicating this. If your synthetics to ark don't work then bite the bullet and get a recommend synth stone as a bridge. Time and headache will be saved this way IMO - I bet you would get a killer edge within 2 or 3 tries with a simple synthetic progression and knowing your bevel was set before starting.

((I actually really hate slate edges so I am probably biased against the BS. If you have tried and liked the edges someone else has provided with the stone then awesome - if not I would consider trading/selling the stone for a synth.))

 

[JPO]

Sort of been following this thread

I think the response belongs to a different thread.

 

[Christian1212]

I think the response belongs to a different thread.

Woops haha. Ignore my comment, cheers.