re-producing old gillettes

[Chester]

Okay, perhaps it's a witless question, and maybe it's been asked before under a different thread (point me to it, if so) but ...

I've been wondering why there isn't a company that could license the production of the old gillette DE designs, to the same tolerances. It would not have to be every model, but they would sell. I understand that gillette probably wants to avoid diluting sales in their other lines, but I can't imagine that any such dilution would be intolerable. Maybe a fatboy (for example) would simply cost too much in build cost for the market to bear, but production could be offshored. Does anyone have some perspective on why it is that gillette doesn't do this, or license another company to do it?
Thanks,
-- Chet

 

[DESkydiver]

Maybe a fatboy (for example) would simply cost too much in build cost for the market to bear, but production could be offshored.

I'd love to see "new" Fatboy's made, but NOT at the expense of going off-shore.

Seven years ago they called it "out-sourcing", 4 years ago it was called "off-shore", now the catch phrase is "Lower Cost Geographies (LCG's)"
I suggested to a person standing on a street corner he would probably do better if he held a sign "I lost my job to someone in another country"

BTW, I use to live 2 doors down from the Edgewater Inn on 25th.

 

[Go West Young Man]

Does anyone have some perspective on why it is that gillette doesn't do this, or license another company to do it?
Thanks,
-- Chet

I'm guessing that there's no market for it outside of a few hobbyists here.
The startup costs would prohibitive, I'm sure.

 

[cooncatbob]

To produce TTOs it would require lots of expensive specialize machinery which Gillette long ago scrapped.
They would rather sell $4 cartridges then $50 razors that take $.25 blades.
Who's going to invest that kind of money in today tight economy for what is in reality a low volume fringe market

 

[Stubblefield]

I'd be surprised if the designs were not in the public domain already. And many of the new DE produced in China appear to be knock offs of older Gillette designs--so someone is doing this.

Too bad they don't shave the same.

 

[impulseballer]

a repro adjustable would be sick

 

[tomviolence]

It is a niche market where the consumables are dirt cheap. The folks who want to buy these "obsolete" razors buy the easily available used ones. Merkur (and a few others) have new DE safety razors for those who don't want to buy used. If you are "Art of Shaving" , you want to sell your brand, your style, rather than offer stuff people can pick up in charity shops for $2. Out of the 100 old gillettes, which ones should be offered ? The toggle ? 1904 ? Goodwill ? It would be great if you could pick up a shiny brand new Fat Boy for $29.95, but I really do not see any incentive for a manufacturer to try and make, market and profit from it.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I think the startup costs would be prohibitive and the market is small.

Worst of all, you'd probably be able to pick up vintage ones for less than what it would cost to produce new ones at a profit.

Even then, the cognoscenti would likely proclaim the vintage ones better, regardless. There's a mystique with unobtanium products and the new models wouldn't have that unless they, too, were discontinued. Then everyone would snap up the discontinued new ones and a cult would form lamenting their demise, causing values to rise.

It's funny how collectable/specialty markets work.

My advice is to pick up some of the very good current production models. I grabbed a R41 because they're out of production. In a few years, people will start complaining about the lack of them. So pick up some good ones like the Futur and DE89L. Sooner or later, people will be complaining about the lack of anything like them on the market.

 

[BroJohn]

Here's a three year old thread on this very topic.

Click!!

It's nice to fantasize about this, but it isn't going to happen. Interesting read, though.

-- John Gehman

 

[rainman]

Even $100 per razor woudn't be worth their time. They make too much off the cartridge razors.

 

[Chester]

Here's a three year old thread on this very topic.

Thanks for passing that along. Very interesting thread. I figured that the question had to have been asked before. What did not get answered by the thread, and I think would be worthy of inquiry, is the "why". Oh, sure, everyone had some speculation -- high cost, low margin, low volume, "niche" customer base, but we have examples of companies like muhle and merkur that seem to not be bothered by this environment. Why are these things produced at all, if there is no money in it? Nobody ever got the "why" from Gillette, or an explanation of how they felt about the idea.

The opening of the old thread began with someone writing in to P&G/Gillette, expressing the idea or concept, but then, when the auto-response got generated, I didn't see where the next step went -- to actually follow the submission guidelines and route they were asking for. It looked like nothing happened after that. I mean, sure, if a person submitting an idea expected to be compensated for it, they'd be shut down by the first response, but none of the things Gillette listed as out-of-bounds were part of the request/idea in the original message to them.

I guess what it comes down to is that most people here are satisfied with things how they are. I, personally, have enough razors to shave with a different one every week and not repeat for more than a year, so there's no "shortage", per se. We do, as many have pointed out, have manufacturers that produce new DEs, so maybe that's enough to meet demand. I get it. I really do. I'm not tilting at windmills.

I asked about this because even though I've got enough hardware to manage my needs, there are a pretty high number of pieces in there (maybe 10%) that have cracked handles or bent teeth, and an equally fair percentage of TTOs/adjustables that have gone out-of whack. At the same time, I've seen a number of examples of people making replacement handles for Gillettes, and quite a few folks that seem to like the head/comb designs of the older models. So, these get replated, or frankenrazors get created. Even the old ones are not quite good enough to meet the need, it seems, and offerings present-day manufacturers are not attractive enough to drive these folks away from modding/repairing/replating.

Anyhow, thanks everyone for responding to my question.
-- Chet

 

[cooncatbob]

Thanks for passing that along. Very interesting thread. I figured that the question had to have been asked before. What did not get answered by the thread, and I think would be worthy of inquiry, is the "why". Oh, sure, everyone had some speculation -- high cost, low margin, low volume, "niche" customer base, but we have examples of companies like muhle and merkur that seem to not be bothered by this environment. Why are these things produced at all, if there is no money in it? Nobody ever got the "why" from Gillette, or an explanation of how they felt about the idea.

The opening of the old thread began with someone writing in to P&G/Gillette, expressing the idea or concept, but then, when the auto-response got generated, I didn't see where the next step went -- to actually follow the submission guidelines and route they were asking for. It looked like nothing happened after that. I mean, sure, if a person submitting an idea expected to be compensated for it, they'd be shut down by the first response, but none of the things Gillette listed as out-of-bounds were part of the request/idea in the original message to them.

I guess what it comes down to is that most people here are satisfied with things how they are. I, personally, have enough razors to shave with a different one every week and not repeat for more than a year, so there's no "shortage", per se. We do, as many have pointed out, have manufacturers that produce new DEs, so maybe that's enough to meet demand. I get it. I really do. I'm not tilting at windmills.

I asked about this because even though I've got enough hardware to manage my needs, there are a pretty high number of pieces in there (maybe 10%) that have cracked handles or bent teeth, and an equally fair percentage of TTOs/adjustables that have gone out-of whack. At the same time, I've seen a number of examples of people making replacement handles for Gillettes, and quite a few folks that seem to like the head/comb designs of the older models. So, these get replated, or frankenrazors get created. Even the old ones are not quite good enough to meet the need, it seems, and offerings present-day manufacturers are not attractive enough to drive these folks away from modding/repairing/replating.

Anyhow, thanks everyone for responding to my question.
-- Chet

TTOs and 3 piece razors are totally different creatures from a manufacturing stand point.
It's Apples and Oranges.
For a 3 piece razor all you need is a lathe and tooling either to stamp or cast the head.
To make a TTO you need special machinery to make all the small parts that make up a TTOs, it's many times more expensive to set up to make TTOs.

 

[rickboone1]

There was a perons (Ikon Razors) that was 'reproducing' old Gillettes. Not TTO's, but 3 pieces. At least people thought his designs were similar to the NEWs I think?

 

[mmack66]

There are enough quality vintage and new DE razors out there to satisfy whatever limited demand there might be. I would rather see Gillette return to the manufacturing of DE razor blades that are of comparable quality to the vintage "Spoiler" blades.

 

[tomviolence]

Companies like Merkur (as far as I know which isn't very far) - did not stop making razors of that type, therefore, they do not have the entry cost of starting up a line like this. They have maintained their market and technology, which is much cheaper starting from scratch.

Even though Gillette still is in the razor business, they really aren't, and have not been, in the DE safety razor business for a long time. Concievably, they might introduce a new DE razor for their art of shaving brand, but it would be expensive and probably nothing like a vintage gillette that collectors get excited about.

Of course, this is just me guessing ...

 

[BroJohn]

Chet --

Gillette/P&G isn't going to reintroduce the TTO DE because it doesn't fit their business model.

They sell cartridges/handles of a proprietary design that is/are patent protected and shuts out competitors. These are priced to maximize profit. Gillette/P&G are aggressive in protecting their patents/trademarks.

So why would they take on the headache to produce a mechanically elaborate TTO on which the patent has been expired for decades? That uses DE blades of a design on which the patent has been expired for decades, _and_ there are scores of competing companies that make these blades? That just doesn't fit their business model at all. They are into exclusivity.

The good news is that we can buy great DE blades from any of a number of makers, and vintage Gillette razors are readily available.

-- John Gehman

 

[luvmysuper]

There was a perons (Ikon Razors) that was 'reproducing' old Gillettes. Not TTO's, but 3 pieces. At least people thought his designs were similar to the NEWs I think?

Similar? Ha! Are you kidding me?
.
.

 

[Hairy Callahan]

Perhaps we are forgetting where we live and in what timeframe we are in... Gillette is in Boston. Check this out. Boston is ate up with unions so let's (safely) assume that any kind of stateside Gillette production facility would be unionized. Now let's pretend (just for the sake of argument) that all of the old hand processes have been converted over to CAD/CAM. That way you only have to pay a guy to chuck stuff up and watch it get machined, then un-chuck it and lay it in a shipping carton. After the Union gets done hammering the company and the government gets done hammering the company with compliance costs and taxes, well, you're looking at something like 60 bucks an hour. Factor in Gillette's profit margin and you're up to something like 80/hr. You're squirting out 40 razors an hour and shipping them to depots, where they will be shipped to retailers who want to mark them up at least 25%. Time you get done, you're looking at roughly forty bucks to buy a slim at the local megamart. A fair price, no doubt. But how many of these does the average joe need to buy in his lifetime. One? MAYBE two? (Who has ever seen a vintage Gillette that was ACTUALLY WORN OUT??) And even then, there's an assload of vintage ones being bought and sold every day. No market for new ones. What little market there is for new DE razors is being handled (quite admirably) by Merkur. So fuggetabout-it. Ain;t gonna happen. Manufaturing is a thing of the past in this once great nation. Nowadays all we make is porn, popcorn and political corruption. We don't even make movies here anymore. We've started shipping that out to Canada. Welcome to the decline of the Western world. Learn a secondary language. You're gonna need it. I'd suggest Chinese. At least learn the verbs. Like "unemployed" and "yes master, I will work faster". Phrases like that...

 

[Sailorman]

Wow, I didn't know that Muhles and Merkurs were made in China.
I mean, with it's ubiquitous unions, high taxes, environmental protections, workplace safety rules, universal healthcare, pensions and social safety net, they couldn't possibly be manufactured in Germany, could they?

 

[ISilva]

Just noticed that this guy is selling TTO razors based on Gillette's designs/patents:
http://shop.ebay.com/kelrog0_1/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=