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"Waves" of razors and third-wave design

it sounds like (1) AC blades and razors are newer so we're not as far along the learning curve in razor design
That is true to a point, but I believe they’re the same or very similar to Injector blades. The difference is the length of the blade. IIRC AC blades were originally just Injector blades made longer to approximate a straight razor with disposable blades for barber/beauty shops. It’s too bad the Injector format became so overshadowed. I think there is the potential for some really amazing safety razor designs using those blades, but they’re just not popular enough for most artisans to spend their time and money producing.
 

Flanders

Stupid sexy Wing Nut
I think there is the potential for some really amazing safety razor designs using those blades, but they’re just not popular enough for most artisans to spend their time and money producing.
Even though it's an AC razor, the new Tatara Amakuni comes to mind. With rigid blades, we no longer need to build razors to support a floppy blade. This was already figured out in the '20s, a hundred years ago! For some reason, many of us still like DE razors and it seems that the blade length is at least part of the reason. Unfortunately, there probably isn't much innovation left to be done with injector razors.

The biggest evolution for rigid blades right now is Oneblade, the head has some features of a DE while taking advantage of the rigid blade format. Then again, some of the newest AC razors have a curved cap and safety bar that is more like a DE than an older injector and I don't see any reason that they couldn't be made for the shorter blade format. Injector razors seem to be stuck with the flat face design of the past, but it does work(just not very innovative). The other issue, a pretty big one, is blade availability. There really is only three choices readily available for injectors, four if you count the Schicks that don't have a key.
 
The biggest evolution for rigid blades right now is Oneblade, the head has some features of a DE while taking advantage of the rigid blade format.
I’ve had a difficult time resisting the urge to pick up one of those Ridge razors you just got. Every time I see it’s still on sale I get closer to breaking down.
Then again, some of the newest AC razors have a curved cap and safety bar that is more like a DE than an older injector and I don't see any reason that they couldn't be made for the shorter blade format.
Exactly!
Injector razors seem to be stuck with the flat face design of the past, but it does work(just not very innovative). The other issue, a pretty big one, is blade availability. There really is only three choices readily available for injectors, four if you count the Schicks that don't have a key.
This is related to the lack of popularity I mentioned. We have a massive selection of DE blades because they’re so popular everywhere cartridges don’t dominate. I guess AC blades are more popular now than injector for a similar reason; popularity among cultures where barber shaves are common. I don’t like vintage injectors because of that flat face, but I’d love a Vector-like razor that uses injector blades. To me the Vector is so good because it‘s so versatile. It’s buttery smooth when used very shallow, like an injector, but it will shave very steep to shave hard to reach areas. A similarly shaped head with an injector would just be that much more maneuverable. For all I know there are 5 models on AliExpress CNC machined in different metals for $80 and I just haven’t seen them.
 

Flanders

Stupid sexy Wing Nut
For all I know there are 5 models on AliExpress CNC machined in different metals for $80 and I just haven’t seen them.
Stay tuned, the one I got for $40 shipped the day before Christmas. I think it's going to be too aggressive for me, but I want to try out the small head. I haven't seen any for injector blades, they are probably just following the Western Company's lead. I should have bough the Asylum injector when it was on sale, but it's another flat face. I bet somebody with a water jet or laser cutter could shorten the head on a CN AC razor.
 
Ah yes, that's worth discussing further! One could argue that Charcoal Goods was the beginning of these modern geometry razors. I remember when he restarted production only to close for good a year later. I believe this was before the Overlander came out, but the design certainly predates it. I think we are talking about less than 10 years from when razors started evolving to what we have now. The Wolfman razors are interesting because they started out with a Tech as their starting point and evolved in couple steps to what we know today, almost completely unrecognisable from its inspiration. Carbon followed a similar path.
That's exactly it. I'd suggest that most modern CNC razors are reverse-engineered versions of traditional designs (e.g., the Tech or Gibbs) made with modern materials and updated geometry (e.g., higher exposure or gap). You also see a lot of that in the watch industry, where a number of manufacturers dip back into their pre-"quartz crisis" catalog and bring out historic designs updated with modern specs/sizing.

Separately, there's some manufacturers doing something that makes their razors perform in a way that's unexpected given their geometry. I haven't used a Charcoal Goods (missed the boat on those before they closed production), but it sounds like they may have been an early example of that. The Overlander is another good example.
 
I'm with you, @Benwustl, I too like DE razors that give a much more rigid blade edge. Much of that is possible due to new designs and higher tolerances of the modern technology. We both just like a certain variation of this current CAC/CNC phase. There isn't a third wave, just different designs. No need to split this phase, just pick which of the modern CNC razors you like. You like the Overlander, so do I, yet it is a fairly traditional design. The Masamune/Nodachi are also fairly traditional, with good improvements in clamping. The Athena is amazing imho, and it borrows a lot from the 1932 Eclipse Red Ring. All needed CAD/CNC to be created.

It sounds like you might be most interested in some of the attributes of modern razors that work best for you, like blade rigidity. What other attributes do you like most?
Thanks @spacemonkey42, I appreciate the conversation. Also, great reference to the 1932 Red Ring.

If I was being completely honest, I'd say that the aesthetics and haptics matter just as much to me as performance. Over the past year or so I've rotated between a Blackbird ti and a Muramasa ti, with a 34C when I travel. Then I came across @Teutonblade 's reviews and started to understand why the Overlander outperforms its specs. Right now, I'm probably enjoying the Blutt BR-1 and Carbon CX the most, but for very different reasons. I'm also super curious about the Pils I have incoming :)
 
There is a 3rd wave of manufacturing being produced today but the innovations were not always progressing. The razors produced from the early 1900s to the 1960s were all great razors for their time. One would see great blade rigidity in all those vintage razors if they used period-correct blades. Vintage Gillette's that were designed for thin blades, still have great blade rigidity with modern blades, and still shave better than 90% of wave two razors. As time went on, the people with the knowledge of how to produce good razors switched over to plastic razors, then cartridges and disposables. The sleeping era for safety razors came about.

Entering your second phase of razors is when producers no longer have the fundamental knowledge of the criteria in what makes a great razor, they just copied vintage razors. The problem is, thick blades were the design basis for many of these vintage razors. If one puts flimsy modern DE blades into these razors designed for thick blades, they get the singing razors that are unnecessarily aggressive.

Even the vintage single edge gem razors have a blade rigidity issue specifically the 1912s. if one pushes down on the gem blades bevel while the blade is in a Gem Junior, they will realize how little support the blade has and how much the blade flexes. Yet if they use a vintage gem blade, the rigidity issue would probably disappear (I’m just guessing as I don’t have vintage gem blades yet, they were just ordered). Comparing the similarly designed clogged-proof razors to the bullet tip, the bullet tip is much milder, with the only noticeable change being better support, giving the thinner stainless gem blades a ridged structure.

The renewed interest in wet shaving and the focus on what makes a great shave ushered in the third era. What you are referring to as the third wave may just be a modern reentering of the first wave.
 
The problem is, thick blades were the design basis for many of these vintage razors. If one puts flimsy modern DE blades into these razors designed for thick blades, they get the singing razors that are unnecessarily aggressive.

Tbh I was surprised how quickly modern style 0.1mm blades show up. Mega thin 0.06mm blades were sold in the 30s (presumably for all those slants?)
I can't think of many post old type designs that don't make these thinner blades fully ridgid.

It's also worth noting high end blades could get very expensive back in the heyday.
$2 for 10 Gillette kro-man steel deluxe anyone? That's $38 in today's money.

There's your next level. Low volume, high end blades.
 
I mostly agree with @spacemonkey42 on the phases.

I think we also need an intermediary phase for 1970s - 2010s where although the market for safety razors was small compared to how it is today, there were still razors being produced in Europe from the likes of Merkur, EJ and Muhle. My estimates, based on when I started in the hobby, are that things were on a slide until probably the mid-2000s, then there were the stirrings of life with new people getting involved and buying either vintage or the brands mentioned above.

The CNC era is really still only a recent phenomena - people forget that something like the Gamechanger has only been around for about 6 years. Heck, I have been on B&B more than double that time, and I am only a whippersnapper compared to some folks here!

Modern production methods are giving people the opportunity to iterate quickly and refine designs, but apart from something like the Henson I don't see any of them as doing anything particularly revolutionary. 90% of modern CNC razors are just variations on things Gillette was doing 100 years ago, with tweaks and adjustments to offer different geometries and improved clamping / rigidity.
 
Yes, these phases have a lot of overlap. As you note, there were still new safety razors being designed and produced through the times when cartridges dominated. No need for an additional phase, one could say that those safety razors are the continuation of the innovation that started in the early 1900s. Perhaps overshadowed by bigger players and cartridges, but great razors and important parts of shaving history.

In many ways the CNC era has lots of parallels to the early 1900s - smaller producers with lots of innovation and differences. A huge difference is that the internet lets them operate globally and we customers can peruse a lot more options.
 
There is a 3rd wave of manufacturing being produced today but the innovations were not always progressing. The razors produced from the early 1900s to the 1960s were all great razors for their time. One would see great blade rigidity in all those vintage razors if they used period-correct blades. Vintage Gillette's that were designed for thin blades, still have great blade rigidity with modern blades, and still shave better than 90% of wave two razors. As time went on, the people with the knowledge of how to produce good razors switched over to plastic razors, then cartridges and disposables. The sleeping era for safety razors came about.

Entering your second phase of razors is when producers no longer have the fundamental knowledge of the criteria in what makes a great razor, they just copied vintage razors. The problem is, thick blades were the design basis for many of these vintage razors. If one puts flimsy modern DE blades into these razors designed for thick blades, they get the singing razors that are unnecessarily aggressive.

Even the vintage single edge gem razors have a blade rigidity issue specifically the 1912s. if one pushes down on the gem blades bevel while the blade is in a Gem Junior, they will realize how little support the blade has and how much the blade flexes. Yet if they use a vintage gem blade, the rigidity issue would probably disappear (I’m just guessing as I don’t have vintage gem blades yet, they were just ordered). Comparing the similarly designed clogged-proof razors to the bullet tip, the bullet tip is much milder, with the only noticeable change being better support, giving the thinner stainless gem blades a ridged structure.

The renewed interest in wet shaving and the focus on what makes a great shave ushered in the third era. What you are referring to as the third wave may just be a modern reentering of the first wave.
That’s really interesting, and I appreciate the historical perspective.

I keep trying to get my head around this next generation of razors that outperform expectations. I hadn’t realized that blades are less rigid than they used to be, but of course that makes sense as companies try to improve margins by decreasing materials costs just enough that consumers don’t mind too much. If you’re using a historical design/geometry with a different (thinner, more flexible) DE blade it makes sense that you’re going to get a different result.
 
Global comment, I’d say my framing is less a historical analysis and more my trying to find a way to talk about a category of modern razors that outperforms other designs. As a historical analysis there’s a lot of gaps 😊

What I think is more interesting is differentiating razors that have a design that allows them to perform beyond their specs. The Overlander is my go-to example; the gap/exposure on the Karve website isn’t especially noteworthy, but there’s a reason it has threads like “G.O.A.T.lander” on B&B.

I’d suggest the Lambda Athena is another example. @spacemonkey42 helpfully noted that it takes design cues from a razor from 1932, but my guess is the Athena *performs* very differently from that razor. There’s “something else” going on beyond gap/exposure geometry, and I find that really interesting.

Side note, my Pils arrives on Monday :) I’ve read that it holds the blade completely flat, which could be another way to get a higher amount of blade rigidity. I don’t know (yet) if that leads to the kind of out-performance I’m hoping for, but fingers crossed!
 
If that is what you are wanting to talk about, it would likely be easier to note the design aspects and specs that do matter to you.

I don't think the Overlander overperforms it specs. It does very well, I have several of them. :) It works just like I'd expect a well-designed razor with a 0.7mm gap, 0.07mm exposure, and good clamping would. There are lots of poorly designed razors with similar specs too.

I do agree that the Athena overperforms its specs and there is a lot of discussion as to why here on B&B. It is much more efficient than most would expect. Theo came up with an amazing design! You don't need to create a category for it, because it is an category of its own. ;)
 
If that is what you are wanting to talk about, it would likely be easier to note the design aspects and specs that do matter to you.

I don't think the Overlander overperforms it specs. It does very well, I have several of them. :) It works just like I'd expect a well-designed razor with a 0.7mm gap, 0.07mm exposure, and good clamping would. There are lots of poorly designed razors with similar specs too.

I do agree that the Athena overperforms its specs and there is a lot of discussion as to why here on B&B. It is much more efficient than most would expect. Theo came up with an amazing design! You don't need to create a category for it, because it is an category of its own. ;)
I think it's okay if we agree to disagree on this one, my friend. Appreciate the interesting conversation regardless, and cheers
 
I do agree that the Athena overperforms its specs and there is a lot of discussion as to why here on B&B. It is much more efficient than most would expect.

I never shaved with an Athena, but I do have a proposition about this: curved baseplate / low gap designs are deceptively efficient for their given specifications compared to designs that use "stepped" RFB-type baseplates to set the gap.

I don't know if that is truly the case, but based on my small sample size of razors like the Fatips and the Swing, I would say it's possible. In fact, I nearly bought a Razorock BBS recently just to see if the same was true there, since that uses a similar type of design.
 
I just got my first Fatip razors, the L’Ibrido Grande and the piccolo Lo Storto. And all I have to say is wow I did not expect this razor to perform as well as it did. I am going to give a little back story to today shave in order to give some perspective. I want to get great shaves from most of my razors. I’m already getting great shaves from a lot of my DE razors and I want to see if I can tame my gem razors and get great shaves. Using a Gem Junior irritated my skin, and the next day, my first attempt with the Yaqi slope resulted in more irritated skin and scrape marks. I figure I’ll give myself a few days break before I try to shave again and use a mild razor that I’m comfortable with when I shave again. But my Fatip arrived in the mail. I could not resist but to shave with one. It’s been a day and 1/2 and day and a half gave my skin enough time to heal 75%. I figured I’ll be careful.

For this shave, I used L’Ibrido Grande open comb side for most of the shave and the close comb side in a few places where I go steep. The results were spectacular. Not only was the shave extremely close, when I put on my aftershave, the burn was almost nonexistent, as if I did not shave. If I had to rate and aftershave burn from 1 to 100, with a 100 being the worst, I would rate this aftershave burn as a 5. I think this fatip may have outperformed the Gillette’s. I'm in awe that one of my closest shaves is also one of my least irritating shaves.

my theory is that a great razor is not that complicating. There are a few basic requirements that can make a razor shave well above and beyond the typical razor that is on the market today. In short, my criteria are a Sharp, Rigid, Straight blade that one can use at a shallow angle. I know many people are steep angle shavers and believe a steep angle is the proper way. I have no right to tell anybody what the correct way of shaving is, yet I adhere to the old-school way of thinking, which states that the only proper angle is a shallow angle. One should only use a steep angle in hard-to-reach areas, or maybe if they have an aggressive, unstable blade. A nonrigid blade may actually be safer to use with a steeper angle, as a vibrating shallow angle blade could punish one a lot worse than the vibrating steep angle blade.

I have not shaved with the lambda Athena razor but looking at pictures I’m guessing that the Athena shaves similarly to the open comb Fatip yet the Athena is a lot fancier, more refined and one will not have to worry about blade alignment with the Athena. The Athena looks like it has amazing blade rigidity as each one of the open cones supports the blade along the width. The Athena also looks to be optimized for a shallow angle shave.

I am a little hesitant to get razors designed like the Razorock BBS as there is no support along the width of the blade. This fear may be unfounded, as depending on how close to the blade’s support goes to the blade’s edge, will affect whether the large open lather drain all causes a wobbly blade. I’ve noticed that this blade support extending closer to the blade’s edge is the major difference of why the Gillette razors hold the blades more rigid over other similar Gillette copies. Many of the colon razors have the blade protruding far into the lather drain holes, yet Gillette razors have the blades protruding only slightly into the leather drain hole. We may talk about a millimeter difference here, but that millimeter may make a vast difference, especially if one is using modern thin blades, although this difference appears to be minimized when using vintage thick blades. (this is only a theory as I have only tested the rigidity with my hands and have not actually tested a complete shave comparing the thin unstable blade verse the thick stable blade in these situations)
 
Question: Is the Henson considered a third wave razor? It has about the best blade clamping (zero chatter) in my collection. It has some audio feedback, but not much, and little to no blade feel...for me. Henson has the best manufacturing tolerances of any razor I have seen. The Carbon has more noise and blade feel, but does have less clamping and more chatter than the Henson. Is the Carbon a third wave razor?
 
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I am a little hesitant to get razors designed like the Razorock BBS as there is no support along the width of the blade. This fear may be unfounded, as depending on how close to the blade’s support goes to the blade’s edge, will affect whether the large open lather drain all causes a wobbly blade. I’ve noticed that this blade support extending closer to the blade’s edge is the major difference of why the Gillette razors hold the blades more rigid over other similar Gillette copies. Many of the colon razors have the blade protruding far into the lather drain holes, yet Gillette razors have the blades protruding only slightly into the leather drain hole. We may talk about a millimeter difference here, but that millimeter may make a vast difference, especially if one is using modern thin blades, although this difference appears to be minimized when using vintage thick blades. (this is only a theory as I have only tested the rigidity with my hands and have not actually tested a complete shave comparing the thin unstable blade verse the thick stable blade in these situations)
Thanks @esee, I appreciate your thoughts. I thought the video that @Teutonblade shared recently from Shane at Blackland on ways to clamp a blade (and make it more rigid) was really interesting. In the video Shane mentions something that speaks to your point; when you bend the blade downward (instead of clamping the blade) there will be some blade flex downward. It also sounds like that's okay because we only shave in one direction, and the blade is rigid in that direction.


I agree that millimeters count with blade clamping! @Teutonblade has done some really interesting analysis on the relationship between blade clamping width and performance. He linked to some of that earlier in this thread, and he's someone I follow for his thoughtful and detailed razor reviews.
 
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Question: Is the Henson considered a third wave razor? It has about the best blade clamping (zero chatter) in my collection. It has some audio feedback, but not much, and little to no blade feel...for me. Henson has the best manufacturing tolerances of any razor I have seen. The Carbon has more noise and blade feel, but does have less clamping and more chatter than the Henson. Is the Carbon a third wave razor?
Thanks @Captainjonny for the insightful question. I think you're exactly right, the Henson would also be an example of a third wave razor. Interestingly enough, Sharpologist had an article comparing a couple of "training wheel" deigns (his term, not mine) that included the Henson and Yates Winning and compared them with...the Overlander!


In the article, the common factor was "very little blade extension, moderate blade gap, and nearly full constraint of the blade when fully assembled." That all sounds exactly like the "third wave" factors (rigidity, performance) that I had in mind.
 
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Thanks @esee, I appreciate your thoughts. I thought the video that @Teutonblade shared recently from Shane at Blackland on ways to clamp a blade (and make it more rigid) was really interesting. In the video Shane mentions something that speaks to your point; when you bend the blade downward (instead of clamping the blade) there will be some blade flex downward. It also sounds like that's okay because we only shave in one direction, and the blade is rigid in that direction.


I agree that millimeters count with blade clamping! @Teutonblade has done some really interesting analysis on the relationship between blade clamping width and performance. He linked to some of that earlier in this thread, and he's someone I follow for his thoughtful and detailed razor reviews.
Thank you for posting this video. I’ve seen this interesting video reference before but this is my first time watching. I think blacklands way of giving the blackbirds blade rigidity is valid when using a locked angle shaver. Yet properly clamping a blade from both ends is definitely a more effective and safer method. The blackbird’s design stands strong if the shaver uses a perfect angle that directs the force perfectly into the tip. That perfect angle is the optimal angle that one should always strive to shave at, as the perfect angle can give the smoothest closest irritation free shave. The second the angle diverges from the optimal shallow cutting angle, one will start putting angle forces onto the blade. Here, a too steep an angle may still hold the blade pretty rigid as one is pushing toward the blade support, yet a too shallow of an angle may push the blade down and one may end up with a bouncing blade.

This line of reasoning kind of fits in with the reviews I see of the blackbird, which is very polarized. The people that use the blackbird at its optimal angle probably get great shaves, and other people can’t seem to get along with the blackbird. I have never used the blackbird and one of my favorite razors is the Goodfellas’ Smile Bayonetta. The blackbird and the Bayonetta share a similar design: a highly curved blade supported mostly from above. The Bayonetta it is also a semi-locked angle shaver similarly to the blackbird. So from my experience this design can most definitely work in a locked angle shaver. However, I suspect that a better clamping of the blackbird blade at both ends would cause more universal appreciation.

The blackland osprey appears to have the better clamping method and also appears to be more universally loved. I don’t have a desire for adjustable razors, as I am a shallow angle shaver, so adjustable razors don’t really talk to me. The only advantages I see of an adjustable razor are allowing a steeper angle shave or cutting weeks’ worth of growth. If I ever get into a situation where I have weeks’ worth of growth, I would probably just use an electric trimmer first.
 
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