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"Waves" of razors and third-wave design

Thanks for sharing. That all resonates with me. I remember I had a hard time getting along with the Blackbird until I came across one of Shane’s videos on shave angle. Before that, I hadn’t realized that you could use the top cap or the safety bar as a pivot to vary the angle and the amount of blade with a positive exposure design.

To your point though, the “blade bender” design to get a rigid blade does seem harder to get right for the manufacturer and harder to dial in technique for the user.
 
Thanks for sharing. That all resonates with me. I remember I had a hard time getting along with the Blackbird until I came across one of Shane’s videos on shave angle. Before that, I hadn’t realized that you could use the top cap or the safety bar as a pivot to vary the angle and the amount of blade with a positive exposure design.

To your point though, the “blade bender” design to get a rigid blade does seem harder to get right for the manufacturer and harder to dial in technique for the user.
Yes, learning to pivot off the head was a big turning point in my DE shaving comfort. Learning to pivot off the head was well past my early shaves, where I used a steep angle and practically pulled my hairs out from the roots. I wondered, during my early shaving attempts, whether the sharpest blades were still too dull for my beard. By learning to pivot off the cap, one can direct the line of force into the cap instead of the blade. The blade then moves as an extension of the cap, and one is less likely to dig into the skin.

The next big thing I learned came from some more experienced shavers on this forum. Instead of paying attention to what angle one should have, pay attention to the sound that the razor is making. Learning to adjust the angle on the sound helps one keep the correct angle better. Feeling, hearing, and seeing the shave helps one enter a Zen state which almost always ends up with a better shave. This last trick works really well as long as the razor I’m using has its shallow angles open. Some razors like my Yaqi razors are rough on my skin if I don’t do serious modification, Like sanding down their caps in order to open a proper angle.
 
Yes, learning to pivot off the head was a big turning point in my DE shaving comfort. Learning to pivot off the head was well past my early shaves, where I used a steep angle and practically pulled my hairs out from the roots. I wondered, during my early shaving attempts, whether the sharpest blades were still too dull for my beard. By learning to pivot off the cap, one can direct the line of force into the cap instead of the blade. The blade then moves as an extension of the cap, and one is less likely to dig into the skin.

The next big thing I learned came from some more experienced shavers on this forum. Instead of paying attention to what angle one should have, pay attention to the sound that the razor is making. Learning to adjust the angle on the sound helps one keep the correct angle better. Feeling, hearing, and seeing the shave helps one enter a Zen state which almost always ends up with a better shave. This last trick works really well as long as the razor I’m using has its shallow angles open. Some razors like my Yaqi razors are rough on my skin if I don’t do serious modification, Like sanding down their caps in order to open a proper angle.
That’s great. I remember I read about 5-6 years ago that wet shaving was the zen approach of hearing but not feeling the razor cutting. It’s a great way to practice focus.
 
With AI & AVs(Autonomous vehicles) advancements, the fourth wave may be self driving razors...
When I crave for truely chatter free, I just grab my Thiers Issard & enjoy (Wave Zero or One?? lol).

Thier will always be tools for us to shave with and enjoy.
BFX

Bruce Lee
If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.
 
I have never liked the “blade bender” razors and have never understood the Blackbird hype. While I am not an engineer, I know enough to see the “blade bender” designs as somewhat poor engineering. My first shave with an Old Type helped me understand simple high quality engineering - you can’t clamp a blade better (maybe the Henson’s equal them).
 
With AI & AVs(Autonomous vehicles) advancements, the fourth wave may be self driving razors...
When I crave for truely chatter free, I just grab my Thiers Issard & enjoy (Wave Zero or One?? lol).

Thier will always be tools for us to shave with and enjoy.
BFX

Bruce Lee
If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.
Ha! Yeah, agreed.

I trained under Guro Dan and his instructors for many years, and would add that Bruce completely obsessed over all the types of punching for a long, long time before he got to the other side with “a punch is just a punch.” 😊
 
A few of you know that a Carbon CX arrived a couple of days ago, and I've been thinking about how I'd describe it. I'll share a more detailed review soon, but the upshot is that it's a really excellent version of a more traditional design/geometry. And that got me thinking. Apologies for the lost post, I've got some free time at my in-laws over the holidays :)

For those of you into coffee, you might have heard of "third wave" coffee. My understanding of the three waves of coffee is:
  • First wave was Folgers, Maxwell House, etc. It was a freeze-dried commodity product with no real differentiation on quality.
  • Second wave was ushered in by Starbucks, Peet's, etc. (or at least, how they started out). These was much more emphasis on the quality of the bean/roast/brew to deliver a better product. The beans were still generally a blend and roasts tended to be darker.
  • Third wave is happening now: Specialty grade, single-origin coffees. Bean sourcing can be as specific as a single harvest from a single farm. Lighter roasts to highlight the artisanal flavor notes of the beans.
The thought I had this morning is that maybe there's three waves of razor design as well. Not quite the same as the waves for coffee, but groups that we can use to better describe how razors are evolving.

First wave: Using a version of the coffee wave framing, I'd say first wave razors would be mid-19th century vintage. Mass-produced products (since there was a mass market for DE razors) with "Goldilocks" geometry that were made of commodity materials for the time. I'm not at all saying these razors were bad. The shave quality was generally quite high (and in some cases excellent), I personally like neutral exposure/moderate gap razors, and plated brass razors can be re-plated and will probably last forever. At the same time, you generally didn't get next-level materials (e.g., stainless steel, titanium) or geometry (more on that below).

Second wave: Second wave would be what I'd call the CNC revolution. CAD/CAM and CNC machining allowed for innovation in materials and small-batch production. The second wave also brought in a democratization of razor production; while not everyone knows how to use CAD/CAM or has access to a CNC shop, it's much more accessible than taking your design to Gillette and hoping they take a new product category to the shelves.

As a result (and more interesting to us as consumers), there started to be more experimentation in design and especially blade gap/exposure. I found this chart a couple of years ago from @Patrice super interesting (Blade gap and exposure - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/blade-gap-and-exposure.636078/page-2#post-12129281). It helped me understand why I liked the razors I liked and also suggested other razors with similar gap/exposure.

View attachment 1964757

I'd characterize the second wave as innovation in quality and geometry. Wolfman seems like the pinnacle of the second wave: super high quality, small lot production, and they've got you covered whether you prefer low gap/high exposure (WR1) or high gap/low exposure (WR2).

Third wave: Third wave would be some of the innovation we're starting to see more recently. Examples include the Lambda Athena, Karve Overlander, Blutt BR-1, and (I'd suggest) the Blackland Blackbird. Basically, razors where gap/exposure don't tell the whole story. I know, I know, gap/exposure don't tell the whole story for any DE razor. However, I'd suggest that these third wave razors have "something else" in terms of performance that is hard to explain using typical razor geometry. The Blutt 1.20, for example, seems like it would be quite aggressive due to its significant gap, when in reality it's quite gentle. Once you dial in your technique, the Blackbird is pretty much legendary for its irritation-free efficiency. I absolutely defer to @Teutonblade and @Mr. Shavington who have clearly thought about this quite deeply; it sounds like clamp width, blade bending, and blade rigidity go a long way toward explaining that "something else."

Okay, so what? Even if this framework holds up does that make second wave or first wave razors obsolete? Of course not. For me, this is just a way to organize things, help understand the really broad range of razors that are out there. Coming back to the Carbon CX, I think it's a top-shelf second wave razor; it's basically a modern Tech made to an incredibly high standard with a bit more blade feel. It doesn't have the next-level clamp width and blade rigidity of a third wave razor and it's a little more sensitive to blade selection than, say, a Blutt. But it's still a beautiful tool and a great razor.

Hope others find this useful, and feel free to suggest anything I might've missed. There are of course exceptions to all this, but I think it generally hangs together pretty well.
Thank you, this is an excellent analysis of trends in razor design and manufacturing. Fully get the first two waves, low cost mass production of well designed razors that can adjust to work for almost anybody supplanted by a second CNC driven wave that allows unique designs by enabling small batch production runs. Many of these designs are tailored to specific preferred shaving styles. Isn't what you described as a third wave really just a continuation of the second wave with more design innovation?

Wonder if a possible future third wave will be driven by the maturation of additive manufacturing so that it can one day take the place of CNC? Believe Blackland experimented with this on one of their razors though eventually the economics did not pay off in the long term so it may take some time for this to come to pass.

Agree that first wave razors are not obsolete as many are still manufactured by brands such as Weishi and Baili and these work quite well for many. Regardless of whether or not we are in a third wave your analysis is excellent, appears accurate and is well presented.

One final thought, most industries start with a variety of small batch designs produced by a large number of manufacturers. Over time industry consolidation drive a shift to mass production and a smaller number of designs that hopefully appeal to most of the consumer base. Automobiles in the first half of the 20th century is a great example of this. Eventually, as manufacturers seek to eek out more market share we start to see lots of, sometimes marginal, feature proliferation on a similar base product. Back to autos when Ford dominated the U.S. market in early 1920's one could have it's primary model T "in any color they want so long as it's black". GM broke Fords hold via lots of styling changes and color options (yes there were also valuable engineering enhancements such as hydraulic brakes) that did not effect core functionality. Some similarity to the second wave you described where CNC is enabling a mix of material design changes combined with styling options that further differentiate the brands even though there is limited impact on shave quality.
 

Guido75

Is it swell time?
but my guess is the Athena *performs* very differently from that razor.
I did a side by side with both razors and my view is that they are extremely similar. Not only in design but also in shave results.


The Red Ring is a staple in shaving history and its design has inspired others to become staples of modern shaving history, including the R41 and the Athena. In turn these new staples will inspire future generations of razors.

Very nice review of the Carbon razor by the way!

Cheers,

Guido
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
A few of you know that a Carbon CX arrived a couple of days ago, and I've been thinking about how I'd describe it. I'll share a more detailed review soon, but the upshot is that it's a really excellent version of a more traditional design/geometry. And that got me thinking. Apologies for the lost post, I've got some free time at my in-laws over the holidays :)

For those of you into coffee, you might have heard of "third wave" coffee. My understanding of the three waves of coffee is:
  • First wave was Folgers, Maxwell House, etc. It was a freeze-dried commodity product with no real differentiation on quality.
  • Second wave was ushered in by Starbucks, Peet's, etc. (or at least, how they started out). These was much more emphasis on the quality of the bean/roast/brew to deliver a better product. The beans were still generally a blend and roasts tended to be darker.
  • Third wave is happening now: Specialty grade, single-origin coffees. Bean sourcing can be as specific as a single harvest from a single farm. Lighter roasts to highlight the artisanal flavor notes of the beans.
The thought I had this morning is that maybe there's three waves of razor design as well. Not quite the same as the waves for coffee, but groups that we can use to better describe how razors are evolving.

First wave: Using a version of the coffee wave framing, I'd say first wave razors would be mid-19th century vintage. Mass-produced products (since there was a mass market for DE razors) with "Goldilocks" geometry that were made of commodity materials for the time. I'm not at all saying these razors were bad. The shave quality was generally quite high (and in some cases excellent), I personally like neutral exposure/moderate gap razors, and plated brass razors can be re-plated and will probably last forever. At the same time, you generally didn't get next-level materials (e.g., stainless steel, titanium) or geometry (more on that below).

Second wave: Second wave would be what I'd call the CNC revolution. CAD/CAM and CNC machining allowed for innovation in materials and small-batch production. The second wave also brought in a democratization of razor production; while not everyone knows how to use CAD/CAM or has access to a CNC shop, it's much more accessible than taking your design to Gillette and hoping they take a new product category to the shelves.

As a result (and more interesting to us as consumers), there started to be more experimentation in design and especially blade gap/exposure. I found this chart a couple of years ago from @Patrice super interesting (Blade gap and exposure - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/blade-gap-and-exposure.636078/page-2#post-12129281). It helped me understand why I liked the razors I liked and also suggested other razors with similar gap/exposure.

View attachment 1964757

I'd characterize the second wave as innovation in quality and geometry. Wolfman seems like the pinnacle of the second wave: super high quality, small lot production, and they've got you covered whether you prefer low gap/high exposure (WR1) or high gap/low exposure (WR2).

Third wave: Third wave would be some of the innovation we're starting to see more recently. Examples include the Lambda Athena, Karve Overlander, Blutt BR-1, and (I'd suggest) the Blackland Blackbird. Basically, razors where gap/exposure don't tell the whole story. I know, I know, gap/exposure don't tell the whole story for any DE razor. However, I'd suggest that these third wave razors have "something else" in terms of performance that is hard to explain using typical razor geometry. The Blutt 1.20, for example, seems like it would be quite aggressive due to its significant gap, when in reality it's quite gentle. Once you dial in your technique, the Blackbird is pretty much legendary for its irritation-free efficiency. I absolutely defer to @Teutonblade and @Mr. Shavington who have clearly thought about this quite deeply; it sounds like clamp width, blade bending, and blade rigidity go a long way toward explaining that "something else."

Okay, so what? Even if this framework holds up does that make second wave or first wave razors obsolete? Of course not. For me, this is just a way to organize things, help understand the really broad range of razors that are out there. Coming back to the Carbon CX, I think it's a top-shelf second wave razor; it's basically a modern Tech made to an incredibly high standard with a bit more blade feel. It doesn't have the next-level clamp width and blade rigidity of a third wave razor and it's a little more sensitive to blade selection than, say, a Blutt. But it's still a beautiful tool and a great razor.

Hope others find this useful, and feel free to suggest anything I might've missed. There are of course exceptions to all this, but I think it generally hangs together pretty well.


I was unable to get your chart to open where I could actually read and understand it. More correctly perhaps, I didn't try terribly hard to accomplish that task, so I'm afraid I could have missed important points.

Still, I enjoyed your approach to razor design, engineering, and history.

Way back in 2017, I and others on my Damn Comfortable Shave thread got deeply into razor blade rigidity as a crucial variable. I still think it is that. However, the more I experiment with razors the more I come to understand how little I know. I also understand how much some folks know as compared to me. For instance, I believe the designer of the Gillette Old Type knew what they were doing, as did the engineer who designed the Athena, and the fellow who designed the mild version of the SuperSlant. The truth is I like a lot of razors and sometimes don't know why. In that respect, I agree with you. Why is the Athena so good?

Sometimes all they're doing is fixing or improving an existing razor. The SuperSlant designers set out to improve an existing razor, the Wunderbar, which was highly efficient and smooth as all get out but also prone to jumping up out of the bushes to bite the hell out of you, for instance. I say that's all they're doing like I understand what they understood and could have fixed the design, but that's not the case.

There are many excellent razors for me. The Sailor. The Oliblades. The injectors and various AC razors (of course). Much is way beyond my understanding although I understand more than I used to in terms of predicting which razors I should and shouldn't buy.

One of the most interesting things to me is the surprisingly good razors which pop up. New razors such as the Athena and Oliblade. Old razors such as the Schick Krona and the Segal.

Keep up the good work.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
Thank you, this is an excellent analysis of trends in razor design and manufacturing. Fully get the first two waves, low cost mass production of well designed razors that can adjust to work for almost anybody supplanted by a second CNC driven wave that allows unique designs by enabling small batch production runs. Many of these designs are tailored to specific preferred shaving styles. Isn't what you described as a third wave really just a continuation of the second wave with more design innovation?

Wonder if a possible future third wave will be driven by the maturation of additive manufacturing so that it can one day take the place of CNC? Believe Blackland experimented with this on one of their razors though eventually the economics did not pay off in the long term so it may take some time for this to come to pass.

Agree that first wave razors are not obsolete as many are still manufactured by brands such as Weishi and Baili and these work quite well for many. Regardless of whether or not we are in a third wave your analysis is excellent, appears accurate and is well presented.

One final thought, most industries start with a variety of small batch designs produced by a large number of manufacturers. Over time industry consolidation drive a shift to mass production and a smaller number of designs that hopefully appeal to most of the consumer base. Automobiles in the first half of the 20th century is a great example of this. Eventually, as manufacturers seek to eke out more market share we start to see lots of, sometimes marginal, feature proliferation on a similar base product. Back to autos when Ford dominated the U.S. market in early 1920's one could have it's primary model T "in any color they want so long as it's black". GM broke Fords hold via lots of styling changes and color options (yes there were also valuable engineering enhancements such as hydraulic brakes) that did not effect core functionality. Some similarity to the second wave you described where CNC is enabling a mix of material design changes combined with styling options that further differentiate the brands even though there is limited impact on shave quality.
Really appreciate this thoughtful response, @Lane101. I think in a stable market you’re exactly right; there’s an hourglass from early experimentation/early adoption, to broader adoption of just a few (or one) winner(s), and then more niche experimentation on the back end.

Where I think that breaks down with razors is that cartridges just crushed the DE market (similar to the quartz crisis for mechanical watches). To my mind, it’s less an evolution of an existing market; it’s a whole new ballgame.

Okay, that said: I sort of agree with you and others that what I’ve called wave three isn’t as clear a break-point as between wave one and two. When we get to the next true innovation (AI-designed razors you can print at home, monofilament blades, whatever) that’s probably the true “next wave.”

At the same time, there’s “something else” in terms of performance that wave two materials and geometry doesn’t quite explain. I think it’s related to the tolerances available via CAD/CAM and CNC manufacturing, but there’s a necessary/sufficient distinction. Put simply, there’s some super high-quality razors out there that I’d suggest don’t fully take advantage of design/manufacturing to achieve next-level rigidity.
 
I did a side by side with both razors and my view is that they are extremely similar. Not only in design but also in shave results.


The Red Ring is a staple in shaving history and its design has inspired others to become staples of modern shaving history, including the R41 and the Athena. In turn these new staples will inspire future generations of razors.

Very nice review of the Carbon razor by the way!

Cheers,

Guido
Thank you!

That’s super interesting. I haven’t tried the Red Ring. If they’re that similar it might be less next-level design than just digging up forgotten legacy designs that are really effective (at least in this case).
 

Guido75

Is it swell time?
Thank you!

That’s super interesting. I haven’t tried the Red Ring. If they’re that similar it might be less next-level design than just digging up forgotten legacy designs that are really effective (at least in this case).
You’re welcome.

They are similar but not the same :001_smile of course. The Athena has a closed comb where the Red Ring is more of slots together.

There is one razor that looks more like the Athena (or actually vice versa) and that is the Dutch Philite razor made of a variation on Bakelite. That baseplate has a similar set up as the Athena. It is however not curved like the Athena is to some extend.

Taking these “inspirations” to the CAD design table and coming up with the Athena is absolutely original and an extremely clever design. Which I believe is existence by the popularity of Theo’s work.

But it could also very well be that Theo has never seen these designs at all!
 
You’re welcome.

They are similar but not the same :001_smile of course. The Athena has a closed comb where the Red Ring is more of slots together.

There is one razor that looks more like the Athena (or actually vice versa) and that is the Dutch Philite razor made of a variation on Bakelite. That baseplate has a similar set up as the Athena. It is however not curved like the Athena is to some extend.

Taking these “inspirations” to the CAD design table and coming up with the Athena is absolutely original and an extremely clever design. Which I believe is existence by the popularity of Theo’s work.

But it could also very well be that Theo has never seen these designs at all!
Really fair points, @Guido75. Your comment reminded me of this post awhile back from @Mr. Shavington (Lambda Ares V1 vs. V2 - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/lambda-ares-v1-vs-v2.658128/post-12866882). To your point, it certainly sounds like Theo has put a lot of original thought and experimentation into his design.

Given that, and the better tolerances possible with really good modern manufacturing, I admit I'm surprised that the Athena doesn't outperform the older design (even though they do of course look very similar). Not at all doubting you, I haven't tried the Red Ring.
 
Athena style baseplates date back to 1918 (Lucas Industries)

img_8518-jpeg.1960606

Pic from Rasoirdandereux

The Athena looks like a masterpiece, definitely part of the current era for how geometry is setup :thumbup:
 
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