Razor design and the importance of blade rigidity

[drartzi]

Hello fellow shavers!
In the last month I was preoccupied by the reason why I love the shave that my Razorock Hawk V2 over any other DE razor that I’ve used.
I know that the design and the blade are very different from the DE razors, but In my opinion it is superb. The only change I made was to use a heavier handle because the original is so light that is useless.
My conclusion was that it is because of how firm the blade is held with support from both sides.
I surfed the net looking at different DE razor designs trying to find a razor that supports in the same way, that is a flat surface close to the edge of the blade and most important on both sides.
I couldn’t find one until this morning when I saw a razor witch I gave my wife a few years ago and she is no loger using it.
It’s the Wilkinson Sword Classic DE razor made of some kind hard plastic named Derlin .
It’s resistant because the razor was dropped many times without any consequences.
I shaved with the WSC this morning using a Gillette Platinum and I am definitely not giving it back to my wife.
It gave me a superb shave almost as good as my Razorock Hawk with the Feather Professional.
I have a few razors and every time I shave with the WSC it’s a reminder that maybe I have so many is because of the RAD?
No that not possible.
There is no such sing as to many razors.

 

[drartzi]

I actually have two Wilkinson Sword Classic razors.
The one that I took back from my wife is not because I need it is because she doesn’t,
or maybe it’s the RAD again?
If I didn’t buy it it doesn’t count?

 

[MM879]

Reading up on SE razors (injectors, specifically), I kept seeing folks mention the advantage of the stiffer SE blades, which, like a good straight razor, create less chatter and stand up better to whiskers. In fact, some folks liken a good SE set-up to something approaching an SR shave, only much easier.

It struck me that part of a slant's effectiveness is that it torques the DE blade, making it stiffer, and somewhat overcoming the thinness of a DE blade. That, combined with the shearing angle of a slant, makes for a smooth, chatter-free shave (at least for me).

Since the slant is so good at this, why is it my Wolfman razor feels just as smooth and efficient as my ATT S2? Looking closer at the Wolfman design, it's clear that the blade is held very firmly on either side by a wide contact point of the cap, and it's pretty close to the edge. The Wolfman head clamps down on the blade in such a way that it must be more rigid than usual. I think this is a key virtue of that razor.

Looking at my other DE razors I noticed that the ones I like best, like the Wolfman or my NEW SC, are designed to tighten onto the blade close to the cutting edge. Others, like the Progress and the R41, leave a lot more "flop" room between where the cap clamps and the edge. Notably, for me, the R41, compared to the Wolfman or NEW, is a chattering, "scraping" experience (I do get close shaves from it, but it's not particularly smooth or pleasant).

With DE razors we tend to focus a lot on blade gap and exposure when it comes to aggressiveness and efficiency, but I'm wondering if we should pay as much attention to how much rigidity the razor gives the blade. At least for me with my coarse whiskers, it seems to make quite a difference.

I don't think that the slant torsional bending the blade is the primary benefit of the shave performance. The main difference is the improved leverage. Think about cutting a sheet of saran wrap by pulling it straight or pulling it at an angle.

Holding the blade differently will change the resonance frequency of it during the cutting process. Making the blade stiffer could help or hurt the perceived feeling of the shave. I insert two shims on a 34c razor. The shims are cut at different widths to form a pyramid shape. I don't want eliminate any blade vibration, just change it center frequency. Remember energy can't be eliminated just moved around or converted to a different form, heat, movement.

MM879

 

[drartzi]

I shaved with Rockwell 6c nr.1 baseplate a few days ago.
I’ve used a shim between the blade and the baseplate.
The reason was to give a better support to the blade and more stiffness.
The shave was very good, I planned on shaving more but I stumbled upon the Wilkinson Sword Classic witch in my opinion was designed with a very good blade support and just shaves better.

 

[poikkeus]

I've noticed a certain amount of blade "vibration" with my 6S.

However, I notice it in three situations: (1) if my beard is insufficiently softened, (2) I use excessive pressure, and (3) if I'm using a dull blade.

On other words, I don't notice any vibration on my 6S if I moisten my beard, avoid pressure, and avoid dull blades. As long as do this prep (which, I hope, most shavers do anyway), there's no need for a shim, or stiffer blades. (Ironically, I do get some vibration with Rockwell blades, which aren't particularly sharp. )

 

[TacticalPanda]

I love GEM blades because of their stiffness, but I'm not sure how much the design of a DE razor matters in improving either a shave or rigidity. The edge of a DE blade can still flex, even with most of the blade clamped down. For instance, I feel almost no difference between my Timeless and my Blackbird, even though the Timeless design should theoretically hold the blade stiffer further out.

 

[jmudrick]

I've spent enough time on the boards to understand that the tiny amount of flex that might happen in a DE razor design without full bottom support, like the Timeless, is not an issue for the vast majority, or they wouldn't have been designed that way, but apparently is for a few.

I love GEM blades because of their stiffness, but I'm not sure how much the design of a DE razor matters in improving either a shave or rigidity. The edge of a DE blade can still flex, even with most of the blade clamped down. For instance, I feel almost no difference between my Timeless and my Blackbird, even though the Timeless design should theoretically hold the blade stiffer further out.

 

[psfred]

I suspect the difference in vibration between razor designs is amplitude, not frequency. A less firmly clamped blade with the clamping further from the edge will "shake" further than one clamped close to the edge, and if that difference is enough to remove skin cells, it will be more irritating.

The key is to hold the razor at any angle where the majority of the cutting force is directed into the body of the blade, not at an angle to it. The blade isn't going to flex much across the width no matter how it's clamped, and the more sideways force there is the more it will bend, and then snap back when the hair is cut free.

As for any cutting edge, the ideal angle of the blade is one that permits between four and eight degrees of "clearance" angle on the "back" side of the bevel -- in shaving, the side facing the skin. Given the normal angles of grind on razor blades, this means around 20 degrees from parallel for the BLADE, not the razor handle. All razors bend the blade some, and the amount varies between designs. That bend angle needs to be considered when choosing the angle of the handle during shaving.

I find there is a point where I can hear the blade cutting the hairs but barely feel it, and that's the best angle for least irritation, best stubble removal, and incidentally, best blade life. Least "pull" or "tug", too. I assume this is the particular angle for that razor and blade that gives the closest approximation of ideal cutting angle.

For those using Gillette OLD types and clones, check the cap and baseplate for fit as they are often bent, and the cap for dents on the corners. This is worst on the thin caps -- I suspect Gillette changed to the thick cap design to reduce the problem of dented and bent caps from being dropped onto a hard floor. Those dents, or worse, warps, prevent the cap and baseplate from clamping the blade from end to end of the edge, and a loose blade in any razor is an invitation to very rough shaves. The blade will "dive" into the skin, especially ATG while following the hair as it cuts. Not fun at all, I had a FatBoy that didn't clamp well and tended to loosen up in use. Thought my blades were done, then cleaned it some more to get proper locking, and the blade miraculously returned to new shaving condition....

 

[Esox]

I surfed the net looking at different DE razor designs trying to find a razor that supports in the same way, that is a flat surface close to the edge of the blade and most important on both sides.

There are a few that do.

Gillette Old Types, NEW SC, post war Tech, Fatip, RazoRock DE1 and Tech II, Timeless and Wolfman being the ones I'm aware of.

There is much to read around the DE forum in regards to rigid designs, but its like @jmudrick says, not everyone needs a rigid design.

I believe the point @psfred made has merit too. Matching a razor to ones own needs is the difficult part. The design that gives you the best shave is secondary.

Not fun at all

My 1917 Single Ring.

Notice the floppy blade from the rolled over corners of the cap. Not a fun shave, at all lol. The blade was really bouncing around between the base and cap.

After 30 seconds of work with a metal nail file. That turned into a fantastically smoooth shaver.

 

[rudyt]

I've spent enough time on the boards to understand that the tiny amount of flex that might happen in a DE razor design without full bottom support, like the Timeless, is not an issue for the vast majority, or they wouldn't have been designed that way, but apparently is for a few.

Well said. There are a vocal few that find razors that appeal to them, focus on one teeny aspect of the design, an attribute the greatness of the razor to that one tiny detail.

I like this Corolla better than that Civic. The Corolla has Michelin tires and the Civic doesn't. That must be why it handles better. NO, IT'S A DIFFERENT CAR!

 

[Esox]

NO, IT'S A DIFFERENT CAR!

Exactly. You said it yourself.

Basically, it comes down to blade support. Same reason why a NEW SC is a smoother shaver than a NEW LC. The pre-War Tech (and NEW LC) only supports the blade near the center plateau of the base-plate, resulting in lots of blade overhang, while the oval-slot Tech (and NEW SC) have blade supports almost right at the blade's cutting edge. The result is a much stiffer blade, almost like a torqued slant.

 

[rudyt]

Exactly. You said it yourself.

Check the date of that post. That was way before I discovered that an unsupported non-rigid razor can give an as good or better shave than a rigid one. Some of us are capable of evolving and changing their opinions as new data becomes available or our technique improves.

 

[Esox]

Check the date of that post. That was way before I discovered that an unsupported non-rigid razor can give an as good or better shave than a rigid one. Some of us are capable of changing their opinions as new data becomes available.

Thanks for the clarity.

Lets see that razor go first pass directly ATG for a BBS shave in one buffing pass. If you can do that maybe I'll break down and try one lol.

 

[rudyt]

Thanks for the clarity.

Lets see that razor go first pass directly ATG for a BBS shave in one buffing pass. If you can do that maybe I'll break down and try one lol.

You're talking to leatherface here, the guy that shaved at least once or twice a week completely dry for a couple of decades. One pass, usually ATG. One pass ATG with the Wardonia and lather would be a cake walk.

Note: during my "dry shave" period, I shaved every day. I only dry shaved when I didn't have time for a proper shave. I never tried to shave a one week stubble dry.

BTW I've been shaving almost exclusively with shavettes for the past 50 weeks. They're not very rigid, but give amazingly smooth and comfortable shaves, as does my dad's super-non-rigid DEvette. It took me years to master that razor.

 

[psfred]

I must admit a leather face does help with getting non-irritating shaves. I think I must have rhino hide on mine, I don't get irritation shaving strictly ATG in the shower with just water.

I'm guessing that Wardonia more or less forces you to ride the cap while shaving because the guard sticks out so far. If that is the case, you should have ideal blade angle and very little blade vibration. Maybe someday I'll find one (when I'm not on a purchase sabbatical) and try it out.

 

[rudyt]

I'm guessing that Wardonia more or less forces you to ride the cap while shaving because the guard sticks out so far. If that is the case, you should have ideal blade angle and very little blade vibration.

Logical guess, but in this case, wrong. I'm a steep angle shaver. In this case, the force against the blade edge is upwards, posing the blade into the cap so there is less blade chatter than shaving shallow. In shallow angle shaving, the force on the edge pushes it away from the cap, where it has very little support.

 

[Esox]

You're talking to leatherface here, the guy that shaved at least once or twice a week completely dry for a couple of decades. One pass, usually ATG. One pass ATG with the Wardonia and lather would be a cake walk.

Note: during my "dry shave" period, I shaved every day. I only dry shaved when I didn't have time for a proper shave. I never tried to shave a one week stubble dry.

BTW I've been shaving almost exclusively with shavettes for the past 50 weeks. They're not very rigid, but give amazingly smooth and comfortable shaves, as does my dad's super-non-rigid DEvette. It took me years to master that razor.

Leatherface haha.

I should shoop that so hes holding a Wardonia over his head haha.

I have tough skin. I am 52 and worked outside all my life, but I do have fairly sensitive skin. Add coarse, dense growth and I need the blade support in a DE.

The Shavette and the Devette both clamp the blade closer to the edge than many mainstream designs...

Using my Grande steep and if I shave slowly enough, it can pluck the hairs one at a time and I can hear a tiny 'ping' every time it does. It has little gap, but the very edge of the blade will flex with a steep angle.

When it does, it distorts the edge and gives me weepers. Switching to a much shallower angle stops that completely because the edge meets the resistance more squarely and it can better deal with the stress against it.

Its like the R1. It can tug and skip first pass WTG at a neutral or steeper angle, but if I use it just slightly shallower than the design angle, it doesnt. If used steeply with enough pressure to limit the skipping, I get razor burn.

Because it lacks the support though, on my second pass which is S-N, on my neck, under and up the face of my chin, I cant use it. My second pass with the R41 and any blade has to be E-W and W-E XTG first to whittle the stubble down, and even then, it can skip ATG third pass.

There is a difference in use of razor designs that offer more and less support, but like I said earlier, only the hand holding the razor can decide how much support is necessary.

I just finished shaving with my Brit Old Type clone and a 2nd use Polsilver. Three full passes and one clean up. The same shave as with an R41, but directly ATG second and third passes. No tugging, no skipping, no feeling like the blade was unstable and the same BBS finish with a lot easier, more secure shave.

My 3 favorite razors all give me the same BBS finish. The difference is the angle of use and the number of passes. My Grande shallow to extremely shallow, 1 ATG buffing pass and one very small clean up. My Single Ring steep, nothing but comb, gives me the same shave in 2 1/2 passes. The Brit clone, as steep again as my Single Ring, but with less blade exposure, 3 1/2 passes.

 

[jmudrick]

One ATG pass with the Fatip (L'Essor handle). Very easy and effective but what kind of fun is this? I like shaving. It does work fine for me though, no irritation.

 

[rudyt]

One ATG pass with the Fatip (L'Essor handle). Very easy and effective but what kind of fun is this? I like shaving. It does work fine for me though, no irritation.

I like shaving too, and usually do one more pass then I actually need just to prolong the shave.

That's a NICE handle on your Fatip. Did it come with the oddball M4.5 thread, or did you Helicoil or fill the hole and re-tap?

 

[jmudrick]

The L'Essor (and Famex) is the same threading.

I like shaving too, and usually do one more pass then I actually need just to prolong the shave.

That's a NICE handle on your Fatip. Did it come with the oddball M4.5 thread, or did you Helicoil or fill the hole and re-tap?