Raw vs. Ripe Pu

[R-James]

www.teachat.com is a good forum to look at tim, and half-dipper.blogspot.com [hobbes' blog] is also a good place to go. Yunnan sourcing on ebay also has some good deals if you send scott a message, he has offered me some good off-ebay deals and samples.

 

[Hobbesoxon]

I'll grant you that if I did it all over again, I'd likely have purchased a significant proportion of different cakes, but I'll eventually wind up getting those anyway.

That's a good situation to be in, you obviously bought wisely! Some of my first cakes are real stinkers. Bland, rough - what was I thinking?

I thought a cake was a sample.

That's true for me sometimes, but I have to be absolutely certain that the factory is on rock-solid ground. I recently bought a Douji cake without tasting, as samples weren't available, but Douji are usually fairly reliable. Do you have any factories that you would trust without fail? Certainly Mengku, Xiaguan, Shuangjiang Mengku, and Mengyang Guoyan for me would all require samples, simply because their output is so variable.

Let's see..... 357 divided by 30..... carry the five.... holy crap you use a lot of leaf per session. A more frugal person could get upwards of double that yield.

Yes, that is definitely true - that's 12g of leaf per session. Don't use 12g of leaf per session unless it's your taste to do so! Start out at 5-6 g. Good point!

How much trouble would it be for you to try it once a year for the next thirty years? Even if you continue to hate it to the extent that it ruined your session, you could always follow it up with a "better" session. Whenever I try something I don't like, I invariably have to break out something I know I'll enjoy almost immediately thereafter. Who knows? Over the thirty years, the cake may even blossom into something worthwhile, or at least provide some information as to the maturing process. Failing that, after twenty or twenty five years or so, I'm sure that you can recoup your initial loss by selling a sample of it to the curious.

You're right, it could turn into something fab. I suspect that the duffers I initially bought are just too bland to turn into anything worth having, as they just don't contain enough character to do otherwise. I am looking forward to being proved wrong when these failures all turn into classics in a decade or so!

Where can one get a basic intro to Pu-ehr? Other than being aged, I don't know the first thing about it? But on the recommendations here, I'm very curious.

There are some good sample sets available from Puerh Shop, if you want to dip your toe in the water, and they'd reach you quickly (assuming you're in the US).

Ah, pu'er...

I'm drinking hongcha in my office right now, simply because it's low maintenance. Though it's pleasant (a little "organic" number my wife picked up in Maliandao last year), I keep wishing I was at home, behind the tea-tray, with my favourite little teapot, drinking an awesome shengpu.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

 

[ouch]

If my knowledge of geography is correct, I believe Tim can walk to Puerhshop.


I'd be the first to admit that nobody should ever follow my advice, some of which borders on the absurd. I bought a few 6FTM's simply because I heard they were going out of business. I may never open them, but enjoy having them. I think if I keep at least half of my portfolio stocked with proven recipes from well known factories, I can take my chances a bit with the remainder. Man does not live by Xi Zhi Hao and Chen Guang-He Tang alone.

Ultimately, you have to take a chance, and even a rock solid recommendation is no more than "looks good on paper" until you check it for yourself. I recently had my last bottle of 1990 Nicolas Joly Clos de la Coulée de Serrant, which on paper is one of the great white wines of the world. Yuck- completely gone. Yet the only way to know was to drink it.

 

[Hobbesoxon]

I bought a few 6FTM's simply because I heard they were going out of business. I may never open them, but enjoy having them.

I've had so many 6FTM and they've nearly all been bland and uninteresting - except the 2008 6FTM "Yesheng Banzhang", from Royal Pu'er. Maybe they caught me on a good day, but I thought that they were really very nice. They're so, so inexpensive, too, so I picked up a bunch. Perhaps you'd like them, too.

I think if I keep at least half of my portfolio stocked with proven recipes from well known factories, I can take my chances a bit with the remainder. Man does not live by Xi Zhi Hao and Chen Guang-He Tang alone.

Agreed. Xizihao were awesome up to 2005. 2007 was absolute heresy, where they produced more than 17 different cakes, clearly capitalising on their market position. It's just absurd. Some of the them were nice, but all of them were overpriced, even if you don't buy them from Houde. I have a tong of the 8542, which was a fair price from Scott, but the rest - no way. I have a scattering of cakes, but they're just too darned expensive. Chen Guanghe Tang really gets my goat. So many of his teas are tweaked to oblivion (orange brew). They're good, but also so gratuitously overpriced that I want nothing to do with it. That sort of false economy really doesn't interest me, when the landscape of pu'er is so wide.

Ultimately, you have to take a chance, and even a rock solid recommendation is no more than "looks good on paper" until you check it for yourself.

It's so true. Samples samples samples! Get them from the vendors, get them from your friends. Drink lots and drink often.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

 

[R-James]

2008 12 Gentlemen "Chun Ya Shen Yun"
2008 Youle - Bamboo Wrapped

Are on the way!

I got a sample of the Chun Ya Shen Yun and completely loved it so I have bought up a cake, and as for the bamboo wrapped stuff it was cheap and looked interesting!

 

[Scotto]

It is like shaving or anything else - the game is to find someone who has similar tastes as your own. Often the "expert" opinion won't match your own preferences. Joel and I both love wetshaving, but what he thinks is great, I think is junk. Similarly, after following Hobbes' blog, I tried a lot of stuff he thought was great and didn't float my boat, and vice-versa. Try before you buy!

 

[Hobbesoxon]

^ Always do this. No-one can do it for you, ultimately.

I'd love to know how that 2008 12 Gentlemen turns out, do please let us know.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

 

[R-James]

^ Always do this. No-one can do it for you, ultimately.

I'd love to know how that 2008 12 Gentlemen turns out, do please let us know.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

I most certainly will. from the 3 sessions I have had out of the sample so far, [excuse the newb describing tea] I get a richness, almost nutty, and something that reminds me of farms that I have worked on in the past as an agricultural college student but not in a bad way, earthy and deep.

The tea also has a slight sweetness and not overpowering bitterness in the finish, which fades off eventually into just being a sweet earthy water, which is not at all unpleasant.

One of these days I will be able to describe better than that, but for now it'll do!

 

[Hobbesoxon]

"Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" - something to be admired and retained!

 

[kongjie]

With all the talk about pu'er I decided to finally try it. Somehow with all my Chinese tea drinking I've never had it.

I purchased some shou pu'er, just a sample, from Red Blossom in San Francisco.

I normally like things that other people won't like. This might be an exception, though. The taste is good but the aroma is, to my nose, almost exactly like lake water. So much so that I had a flashback to swimming tests at scout camp. Seriously.

 

[Proinsias]

'Pond water' is often brought up in discussion of shu and rarely in a favourable way.

 

[Scotto]

Don't judge pu'er by a poor shupu sample. I did for many years, and as a result missed out on the real deal - shengpu. Quite a different beast.

 

[Suzuki]

Don't judge pu'er by a poor shupu sample. I did for many years, and as a result missed out on the real deal - shengpu. Quite a different beast.

+100

My first experience was with some very low-end shu touchas - nasty stuff. I then went to a local tea shop and bought some loose samples - not much better despite costing a pretty penny.

I was then given some samples and tried good shengpu - it was a revelation.

It took some time for me to put in an order for stuff in bulk, but suffice it to say, I've got the bug and I now drink way more pu'erh (and mostly shengpu) than any other tea and the only cup of coffee I have is in the morning.

 

[Hobbesoxon]

It's very easy to buy bad tea. It's analogous to buying wine in the 1980s, when supply was limited because supply was limited. Meaning that, because the average person didn't really know much about wine back then, the products on the market were low quality, catering to and exploiting that lack of wine knowledge. Now, the average person is quite savvy regarding wine, and the quality and availability of wine has increased dramatically.

However, buying wine in the 80s, you might have thought, "This stuff is awful."

A lot in the world of tea is like that, at the moment. It's so easy to buy dross, which some import company has bought cheap and to which it has added a fancy label and corresponding profit margin.

Having said that, I've had a good tea from Red Blossom, so they definitely have some good leaves in there, but it sounds as if you got unlucky. It's very easy to get unlucky with shupu. As the gentlemen above so wisely write, don't call it a day just yet!


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

 

[ouch]

Absolutely brilliant commentary, but I hope you're not referring to Bordeaux of the 80's, as that was likely the "decade of the century".
1980- awful.
1981- light and delicate, it provided some very nice wines that are now just about all past their prime.
1982- one of the benchmark vintages of the century.
1983- marvelous wines with tremendous success in Margaux region.
1984- yuck.
1985- terrific vintage with lots of pleasant surprises
1986- Pomerol and St. Estephe were not at their best, but St. Julien and Pauillac more than made up for it in this great vintage.
1987- light, quickly fading wines all around.
1988- hard, tannic wines, almost all of which will lose the battle of fruit vs. tannin, save for a few winners and despite the LSD induced 95 point rating by The Wine Spectator.
1989- a wonderful vintage where everyone seemed to shine.
1990- well, the 60's didn't really start until the summer of love, so I have to include this monumental vintage.

That's three or four great and two truly phenomenal vintages in a very short period.

 

[Hobbesoxon]

Sure, the chateaux have been producing vintages multiple times per decade since the classification system in the late 1800s (and before). I'm referring to the wine commonly available to your average consumer - it was limited, because so little information was known by the average person. You could always fly to Bordeaux and find great wines in the same way that a trip to Kunming will always find you good pu'er, but what's currently available in tea is similar to wine's ("high street") availability in the 80s.

It's changing, though, gradually! Though the "which tea makes me lose weight fastest?" crowd are usually ridiculed, they are helping to make tea popular with the populace, which surely must be a good thing.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

 

[Suzuki]

Sure, the chateaux have been producing vintages multiple times per decade since the classification system in the late 1800s (and before). I'm referring to the wine commonly available to your average consumer - it was limited, because so little information was known by the average person. You could always fly to Bordeaux and find great wines in the same way that a trip to Kunming will always find you good pu'er, but what's currently available in tea is similar to wine's ("high street") availability in the 80s.

It's changing, though, gradually! Though the "which tea makes me lose weight fastest?" crowd are usually ridiculed, they are helping to make tea popular with the populace, which surely must be a good thing.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Agreed - I have access to several good tea shops - some independents, some chains, Chinese shops, Indian shops, Japanese shops - you get the picture.

Only one shop had anything resembling a decent quality of pu'erh - and they wanted a king's ransom for it.

While I think that some folks will play with pu'erh, the number of folks who will buy a cake/brick from a shop for $50 - $75 (the going rate in the few stores that carry these items) - often without being able to provide any information on date, quality, manufacturer or what to do with it. My experience has been that its impossible to get good information on pu'erh anywhere except the internet - and the same is true for access to quality products at reasonable prices.

So, even while tea is gaining popularity (my company is actually hosting a tea tasting sponsored by a local vendor as a promotional event), I can guarantee that pu'erh won't be on the menu. Most mainstream shops I've been in readily admit that they sell most of their pu'erh as a component of "wellness" or "slimming" teas.

However, the fact that pu'erh seems likely to continue to fly under the radar isn't necessarily a bad thing - we all know what's happened to the price of a decent Bordeaux over the last several years

 

[Hobbesoxon]

...although I would welcome some DOC-style control over pu'er. Actual control, that is, not the usual PRC "control".


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

 

[ouch]

It's changing, though, gradually! Though the "which tea makes me lose weight fastest?" crowd are usually ridiculed, they are helping to make tea popular with the populace, which surely must be a good thing.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

True, but there's a concomitant downside to that. To continue the wine analogy, I recently perused the high end cabinet at my local wine store, and was aghast to discover that some very recent first growths were going for $1,500 per bottle.

Those prices weren't driven to such lengths by wine fans, rather by speculators. I'm perfectly content to spend months or longer ferreting out gems if the alternative is a steady supply accompanied by a "Here ya go, that'll be $300, bub" attitude. When the "French paradox" hit the scene some fifteen years ago, my favorite cheap wines doubled in price overnight.

If pu'er truly goes mainstream, I envision rampant commercialization, fraud, and rich guys using beengs as paperweights.

...although I would welcome some DOC-style control over pu'er. Actual control, that is, not the usual PRC "control".

Hobbes

Amen. I think the industry would ultimately have much to gain by implementing a strict, Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée-like system. Considering that the uninitiated are often first met by the tired mantra of "Oh, pu'er- you mean that stinky, foul tea", they have to decide whether to cater to the bandwagon jumpers for a quick, short term gain, or to position themselves for the long haul. How many would be pu'er fans have been turned off by their inability to navigate the tortuous waters without a governmental imprimatur that what they just purchased was, in fact, what it was purported to be.

I've even read reviews by sellers where they freely admit that what they are selling is suspect-
eg: 1998 Lincang CNNP green wrapper raw-

This production is most likely not a true CNNP production but used the same wrapper style.

Or this gem:
2007 Banzhang old tree cake, Jai Gun Da Tea Factory (may as well be- it's the Yunnan Shiyuan Tea Factory)-

This is the lowest priced tea cake that has labeled as Bangzhang as well as 'Old tree'. Let's blame it on the Banzhang crazy in the last few years as the marketing gimmick of a small tea company to sell its tea is to use a creative labeling system. Nevertheless, even if it contains only a tiny portion of Banzhang leaves while majority leaves are from other places, it worths it. For its price, you cannot beat it.

If I appear cranky today, there's good reason for it. See my next post for details.

 

[ouch]

For the first time since June, I didn't have any pu'er today.