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Raw vs. Ripe Pu

..............ehr, that is.

Pros and cons and any recommendations, please.
I fear there is trouble ahead.
 
Very new to this, I have tried 2 sheng and one shu, and so far the shu came out on top for me. I will look up the names when I am next in my study so you can know exactly which ones I had
 
The idea is the ripe stuff is meant to imitate the really old and well aged raw stuff. It's all down to personal taste but in my experience there is an overwhelming amount of cheap nasty ripe pu-erh out there, especially loose. If you're starting out with ripe pu-erh sticking with cakes from the Menghai Dayi factory seems to be a fairly reliable way of getting a decent brew.

As always it's probably best to wait for Hobbes to drop by although his bias for raw might show a little. My friends have taken to calling the ripe stuff my 'mud tea' and there is a 50/50 split between liking it and loathing it. The young raw stuff is definitely an acquired taste. Personally I'd vote for well aged raw stuff, I start to appreciate much more after it's had five years or so on the clock.
 

ouch

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Imagine if someone were to come up with a process to artificially age a new bottle of extremely tannic Bordeaux so that it would taste as if it were twenty or more years old, but with the loss of a significant amount of nuance and complexity. People would buy it, but oenophiles would continue to seek out the real thing.

You can't rush mother nature.

Cooked pu'ers (I will henceforth officially adopt the Hobbes spelling) are interesting, but not compelling. They are fun and worth drinking, as I find almost any tea to be, but by all accounts it would appear that raw shengs are the top of the heap.
 
Imagine if someone were to come up with a process to artificially age a new bottle of extremely tannic Bordeaux so that it would taste as if it were twenty or more years old, but with the loss of a significant amount of nuance and complexity.

You don't have to imagine anymore, its called the clef du vin.
 
Imagine if someone were to come up with a process to artificially age a new bottle of extremely tannic Bordeaux so that it would taste as if it were twenty or more years old, but with the loss of a significant amount of nuance and complexity. People would buy it, but oenophiles would continue to seek out the real thing.

You can't rush mother nature.

Cooked pu'ers (I will henceforth officially adopt the Hobbes spelling) are interesting, but not compelling. They are fun and worth drinking, as I find almost any tea to be, but by all accounts it would appear that raw shengs are the top of the heap.

Bingo.

I'm not a pro/expert, but here's my $0.02.

I'll drink the odd cooked, but won't buy in bulk. They're not bad and the better ones make a pretty thick/soupy brew that has lots of musroomy/earthy flavours. The cheaper stuff smells and tastes like you've scraped up the bottom of a horse stall and brewed it.

In contrast, the raw has much greener, livelier flavours - that I prefer. I have and will continue to buy in bulk as I've become quite an addict.

Its worth trying both to see what you like.
 

ouch

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You don't have to imagine anymore, its called the clef du vin.

Thanks. On your recommendation, I went out and purchased one. It said I should drink this one up immediately.
full

I don't know what I was thinking holding on to that plonk. :tongue_sm
 
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ouch

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My take on shu is that as a consequence of the fermentation process, much of what would otherwise translate into a nuanced identity from one tea to the next is lost forever. The raw, relatively unprocessed teas should be better able to display variation in leaf quality, blend, and terroir.
 
Full shengpu bias in effect!

I don't mind shupu, though. There are some nice ones - it's a genre of its own. Dark, moody, heavy - shengpu doesn't ever get like that. When old, as you no doubt have found out for yourself, shengpu is more "mahogany bookcase", while shupu is more "damp pages and old leather".

Some people like shupu for the calming after-dinner feel. Maybe that's the theanine. We used to drink it in the evenings, until we realised the caffeine was interferring with our sleep. :)

As far as recommendations go, the undisputed champion of the shupu world is Menghai V93. They invented, they retain all the skills in-house, they are uberlords of shupu, ruling all beneath them with a will of iron.

I don't keep a lot of shupu. It's accelerated, and loses a lot of complexity - but that's down to personal preference. Lots of people like shupu. Shupu is more popular among my Mainland Chinese tea-drinking chums than shengpu. It's easy-going, accessible, it's not going to punish you with brutal bitterness if you get the infusion wrong - it's a casual treat. Buy the V93, and we wary of EVERYTHING else in the world of shupu, until you've got recommendations from hardcore shupu drinkers (i.e., not me). :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. Standard practice is to apply two rinses of boiling water to shupu, rather than just the one that you would apply to shengpu. The shupu manufacturing process (wodui, wet pile) is rank. It's composting. You need to kill the bacteria afore ye get the worst of it. I have read studies (Art of Tea magazine) describing the amount of bacteria of various types killed by two rinses - 100%.
 
Now I need the definitive list of say the 1st 5 cakes to buy in sheng, cheap and good, and the first 5 in shu. Its just about cake buying time and I still have no clue!
 
Now I need the definitive list of say the 1st 5 cakes to buy in sheng, cheap and good, and the first 5 in shu. Its just about cake buying time and I still have no clue!

I'm sure Hobbes can provide some suggestions...

Also, if you send Scott at Yunnan Sourcing a note asking for some good price:value teas for someone just getting into pu'erh, he'll give you some good suggestions - that's what I did and was quite pleased.

If you're going to buy a bunch of stuff from Yunnan, Scott's willing to do off e-bay deals that save you some money as he doesn't have to pay the e-bay fees - the only caveat is that you have to pay with paypal.

Scott was great to deal with and I'm definitely going to deal with him again - especially with the local fancypants tea shop selling very average, undated cakes for $75!
 
Thanks for all the great info everyone.
I am a lifelong coffee lover and being a midnighter (shift worker) I need caffiene to survive.
Only so much java one can drink so I'm looking for new options.

I have been in contact with Scott from Yunnan Sourcing and he has been very helpful with recommendations.......will probably buy my starter set from him.
The subtleties of most things are lost on me, especially when it comes to beverages.
I smoke pipes and cigars and my palate aint the most refined so some of the more delicate notes from the complex and special teas would go unnoticed.
 

ouch

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I smoke pipes and cigars and my palate aint the most refined so some of the more delicate notes from the complex and special teas would go unnoticed.

Here's all you have to know- very few people are able to articulate to a substantial degree the differences between two wines, beers, cigars, teas, coffees, olive oils, or just about anything else. However, almost anyone can have two examples of a product placed before them and quickly decide which is preferable. When the great wine critic Michael Broadbent was asked to recall the last time he had mistaken a Burgundy for a Bordeaux, he responded "Today". Try different things, and you'll see what best suits your taste. Recommendations from folks you trust can be helpful, but if you have success with a particular reviewer's suggestions that doesn't mean that reviewer knows any more than anyone else (this would be especially true if you take any of my suggestions), only that that reviewer's taste most closely mirrors your own, which is a very good starting point.
 
Now I need the definitive list of say the 1st 5 cakes to buy in sheng, cheap and good, and the first 5 in shu. Its just about cake buying time and I still have no clue!

Honestly, if you buy ten cakes now, you're going to regret it in six months. :)

Samples samples samples!

If you're really sure, I think you'd probably like the 2007 Shuangjiang Mengku "Muyechun 001". I have a few. It's generally recognised as being fresh and fun enough for the newcomer, while being complex and meaty enough for the hardened veteran - and it's inexpensive.

Samples samples samples!

I never (well almost never!) buy a cake without trying a sample of it first. It's a mug's game, otherwise. No reputable tea-seller worth his salt will not let you have a sample, unless it's a super-cheap cake. Every cake you buy is committing yourself to drinking THIRTY sessions of the stuff. Be DAMNED sure you're buying the right thing before you part with your cash. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes
 
There is a good point. I emailed yunnan sourcing yesterday and the gent there said if I buy a cake or 2 he will generously load me up with samples gratis to give me a taste of things to come. This has made me reduce myself to getting one or 2 of the 14-15 dollar cakes as a blind buy. It might be living dangerously but I'm just that kind of guy!
 

ouch

Stjynnkii membörd dummpsjterd
Honestly, if you buy ten cakes now, you're going to regret it in six months. :)

Having purchased ten cakes (okay, more than ten) in the last six months (okay, less than three), my only regret is that I didn't buy more. :001_rolle

I'll grant you that if I did it all over again, I'd likely have purchased a significant proportion of different cakes, but I'll eventually wind up getting those anyway.

Samples samples samples!

I thought a cake was a sample. :tongue_sm

Every cake you buy is committing yourself to drinking THIRTY sessions of the stuff. Be DAMNED sure you're buying the right thing before you part with your cash. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Let's see..... 357 divided by 30..... carry the five.... holy crap you use a lot of leaf per session. :lol: A more frugal person could get upwards of double that yield.

That is certainly the downside of buying a cake that's a dog, but other than tying up your money in something that displeases you, I don't think it's all that bad. How much trouble would it be for you to try it once a year for the next thirty years? Even if you continue to hate it to the extent that it ruined your session, you could always follow it up with a "better" session. Whenever I try something I don't like, I invariably have to break out something I know I'll enjoy almost immediately thereafter. Who knows? Over the thirty years, the cake may even blossom into something worthwhile, or at least provide some information as to the maturing process. Failing that, after twenty or twenty five years or so, I'm sure that you can recoup your initial loss by selling a sample of it to the curious. :thumbup:



Badger and Blade: now featuring more tea chat than Tea Chat.
 
Where can one get a basic intro to Pu-ehr? Other than being aged, I don't know the first thing about it? But on the recommendations here, I'm very curious.
 
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