Quality of soaps vs Poor technique?

[Redzone]

Being relatively new to wet shaving and soaps etc I was wondering how much of a soaps reported effectiveness/quality/slickness or lack of it , can be attributed to true soap quality versus poor lathering technique etc.
For example if I hadn't asked questions when recently using TOBS soap for the first week or so I may have incorrectly assumed the soap didn't perfrom as well as others I seem to have the knack of getting efficient lather from.
We all have our favourites of course but it seems unfair to be put off a soap because someone with eg: 5000 posts (no one in particular) says dont waste your money on "brand X" its over priced and doesnt perform as well as "brand Y" where in actual fact it simply could be a case of lack of technique.

I am NOT trying to stir up an argument Gents and maybe its simply a matter of YMMV but I think there is a bit more to it than that.

Your thoughts??

I realize this could apply to razors/blades and all manor of things but its soaps I am trying to learn more about at the moment.
Thanks for your time !

 

[bassopotamus]

There are tons of variables at play, but quality of soap and technique both matter. I've never used any soap that truly sucked, but some definitely work better than others. My technique is probably not very good (and my water is terrible). What I have noticed is that some soaps are much more tolerant of technique issues and hydration levels. I tend to like soaps that are not very picky about how much water you give them. Others are pretty finicky (Mystic Waters comes to mind), and while they can often give a great shave, I prefer something I don't have to think all that hard about when I'm lathering

 

[JBLA]

There are multiple factors in play here, including:

1. Quality of the soap.
2. Quality of the water used (hard tap water vs. soft tap water vs. distilled water).
3. Amount of soap.
4. Amount of water.
5. User technique.

Generally speaking, those soaps that have earned a reputation haven't generally done so by accident, and this board is probably THE repository on the web for finding multiple reviews of wetshaving products, as even many of the more obscure products often have multiple reviews.

On any given day, somebody can have a bad experience with a particular soap, either because they used too much or not enough water, or not enough product, or didn't lather enough, or overlathered and put air bubbles into the soap, but over time, and over multiple users, the experience adds up, and ultimately some soaps seem to be much easier than others to lather.

Two of the cheapest soaps on the market, Williams and Arko, have acquired reputations for being hard and easy to lather, respectively, but they still have HUGE followings, as indicated by the near weekly threads about them. They both provide an effective lather, as indicated by their huge fan bases, but it's probably more than a matter of technique that's caused then to acquire those reputations.

That said, to get the most out of any particular soap, the issue is often a matter of using softer/distilled water and more product.

 

[rand77]

Technique matters a lot, especially with a lower quality soap. As mentioned above, I have not encountered a soap that was completely unusable for its stated purpose. Some soaps are easier to lather than others, and may provide a slightly better end result. Different soaps will require different techniques to bring the best possible lather from them.

 

[buca3152]

Technique is 95% of the shave IMO. Soaps and creams all work if you work them. I use straights and I use a wetter lather, no mr softee ice cream looking lather here! Not weak, but slowly drips down the neck. YMMV. And as far as cushion is concerned, no soap or cream can stop a carbon steel blade from scraping or cutting the skin if you use too much pressure or your angle is off. My last touchup pass is done with water only.

 

[redrako]

Chris, good points.

For me the acronym, YMMV says it all. Certainly there are those who are very enthusiastic about particular products, techniques and methods and others who would have an opposite opinion.

I'm glad that you've now had the experience of dialing in how to use a new product, TOBS soap. It's an opportunity to really learn about building a lather.

 

[Luc]

If the label on the product says "Shave Soap", it's related to technique most of time. It does happen in a few cases that you can get aweful results with a product labeled like that. Most users often try once or twice using the same technique (same amount of water, same amount of product). Some soap need more product, some need more water, some need more mixing. It depends. Some are simply not good.

the opposite is also right, some soaps that are *not* labeled "shaving soap" can be good for shaving. However, those are very, very rare.

The thing is, if you look at the ingredients, you should be able to tell if the soap is good or not. Some, as an example, see Tallow and right away jump to the conclusion that it's good. That's not true.

Myself, I try the soap for as long as I can before I review it. If I find that something is impossible to lather or get a good shave with, I will say so (i.e. Erasmic shave stick is my top winner right now). You can shave with Erasmic, it's a thin lather and I did try many different ways to lather it but that one (and many others share this opinion) don't work well. So, I'm at the point where I put this one in the "not very good" box and moved to something easier to work with. You might pick-up Erasmic shave stick and it might work fine for you (YMMV). But it didn't for me.

 

[shavefreak]

Ease of getting a lather is one thing, shave performance or protection, is another and finally how moisturizing is the soap and how does your face feel after. Some of the more difficult lathering soaps can be the most moisturizing. Some elite soaps like ADP and Martin de Candre, Tabac, Pana Cremea do it all. A wide hydration window for too much or too little water making lathering fast, easy to adjust and offer great protection for your shave.

 

[u2u]

Have to respect the optimistic responses here and the focus on technique. I don't disagree in general, but have any of you tried the most recent GFT Eucris soap? Anyone find it to be a quality product? Try as I may, it has me beat. If you have had success please describe your technique...

 

[takeshi]

Being relatively new to wet shaving and soaps etc I was wondering how much of a soaps reported effectiveness/quality/slickness or lack of it , can be attributed to true soap quality versus poor lathering technique etc.

Depends on the situation. With newbies it's less likely to be the soap as a generalization but there are certainly poor soaps out there. The tendency seems to be for people to blame hardware and supplies versus technique. A good indicator would be how well regarded the soap seems to be on the forums. If a lot of people can produce excellent lather with a given soap and a newbie cannot...

It's always a challenge to assess not only soaps bue DE's, blades, etc when one is in the process of learning and starting out. Definitely consider going back and reevaluating things as your technique improves.

We all have our favourites of course but it seems unfair to be put off a soap because someone with eg: 5000 posts (no one in particular) says dont waste your money on "brand X" its over priced and doesnt perform as well as "brand Y" where in actual fact it simply could be a case of lack of technique.

Never rely solely on reading an opinion or even a collection of opinions. Always assess things first hand. No soap is everyone's favorite. One's favorite soap may not be popular. Overpriced, better, overrated, etc are all highly subjective words and that's not a conclusive list of such words by any means.

I am NOT trying to stir up an argument Gents and maybe its simply a matter of YMMV but I think there is a bit more to it than that.

YMMV entails: skin differences, beard differences, water hardness differences, differing preferences, differing priorities, differing budgets differing senses of aesthetics and much, much more. It all falls under YMMV. What works best for one or even for many may not work for best a given individual for any number of reasons. It certainly plays its role in soap preference but one's technique does as well. Also keep in mind that soaps behave differently do if you've memorized a "recipe" or "formula" then it may not work when you switch from one soap to another (one reason why I don't use them).

It is a bit of an art and less of science but ultimately it is your experience that drives your selections. Again, I'd recommend trying things again down the road. It's like anything else in life -- you can't just rule out things permanently. Sometimes it's worth trying what you didn't like in the past again.

 

[Dave_D]

Even experienced folks can't define what soap is going to work best for someone else but they can often provide good lathering tips that a person could try to give any chosen soap a fair shot.
Some posts dismiss great soaps due to poor lathering skills while other posts reference experienced lather experts that get great results from less popular soaps.

 

[rand77]

Have to respect the optimistic responses here and the focus on technique. I don't disagree in general, but have any of you tried the most recent GFT Eucris soap? Anyone find it to be a quality product? Try as I may, it has me beat. If you have had success please describe your technique...

Soak the puck for 5 minutes and let it dry out overnight. This will make it easier to load on subsequent uses. I hold the puck in my hand when loading with a midsize or larger brush, loading for at least 30 seconds by swirling over all contours of the soap (not just the top). It's worked out well enough for me, I get adequate results. It's certainly more difficult than a top tier soap, but the phenomenal scent redeems this soap.

Edit: I don't have super hard water at my place, I believe its relatively soft.

 

[rand77]

Even experienced folks can't define what soap is going to work best for someone else but they can often provide good lathering tips that a person could try to give any chosen soap a fair shot.
Some posts dismiss great soaps due to poor lathering skills while other posts reference experienced lather experts that get great results from less popular soaps.

It takes a lot practice for some soaps, the technique required changes as different variables change (brush size and density, loading time, water hardness etc...). I couldn't lather Williams or Penhaligon's EF at all the first time, but eventually I found a way. I had to do several test lathers before finding out what works best for a particular soap.

Even for top tier soaps (MdC, Tabac, Klar, DR Harris) it took myself several trials before I brought the best out of each soap.

 

[Graybeard57]

I read here once that lather is simply a combination of soap, water, and air. Others may disagree with me, but I believe most any soap will produce a good lather under the right circumstances. A rare few may be just plain bad products, but I haven't run across one in my admittedly limited experience. Patience, dribbling some water onto the soap cake while soaking your brush, adding a little water at a time to the soap as you lather are all techniques that have never let me down. Keep at it, and best of luck.

 

[vickywally]

Technique is 95% of the shave IMO.

+1

I remember reading someone say in a post (I paraphrase) - "whenever I think its the soap/razor/brush - its not - its me". Some products are better than others - but technique dominates heavily. I've used $0.5-$50 soaps - and while quality does vary - I'm yet to find a truly unusable product.

 

[Mandina]

Having learned so much about prep, hardware, shaving technique, and post-shave care from the B&B community, I've learned to get excellent shaves from any soap--ranging from the soaps that enjoy widespread high regard to, say, Williams. It's just that a soap like Williams isn't nearly as enjoyable to use as many others.

 

[ksblazer]

As mentioned with proper teqhnique you should be able to get a quality shave with just about any soap/cream out there.

But I swear, that when I first started out and my technique wasn't the best. I noticed that I would get a little better shave from QCS. Even though it was mayonaise like, it was super slick. maybe even a little too slick. I was scared I may loose control if I wasn't careful. But after I was done I would get the least amount of cuts/weepers than I would with some of my other creams that I was using.

 

[u56rh]

An interesting question. I'm currently struggling with a sample of mike's, and I think it's because tabac and AOS cream make it super easy to make decent lather despite my bad technique.