Excellent presentation, especially the illustrations! Thanks!
On blade angle
- Thread starter mozart
- Start date
+1 on the sticky vote here. Great visual explanation! 
/Nicholas
/Nicholas
+1 sticky. Probably the most helpful thread in terms of technique improvement for me.
- Thread starter
- #44
I only now saw this post. Hopefully it's not too late to add my comments.
As you probably noticed, the illustrations show the skin as a quite rigid object. In passing, it's mentioned that the skin is of course not rigid but is in fact quite pliable. When you deviate from the proper angle where the blade actually makes contact with a rigid surface, the blade will be lifted off and no cutting will occur. With skin, the razor head depresses into the flesh allowing the blade to make contact at angles other than the one dictated by the design. The angles where cutting occurs can be quite steep, depending on how much pressure is applied. The steeper the angle at with a blade touches the skin the more aggressive the shave.
In other words, if one wants to maintain proper angles, one is forced to use little pressure in order to keep the skin surface flat. One can assist that by moving the head around, making grimaces, or otherwise stretching the skin with fingers and hand. Higher pressure means that other angles can be used, resulting in more aggressive shaves. With proper control of the combination of angle and pressure, one can achieve BBS shaves while keeping irritation to a minimum. Unfortunately, figuring out this combination for every region of the beard and for every stage of a shave takes its time.
Hope that didn't confuse matters.
Best - MM
I agree. The skin is not flat nor rigid. If one stretches the skin, one can make it flatter, but too much stretching and one risks ingrown hairs. The way that the multiple blade cartridges work is to stretch the skin using the rubber(ish) "microfins" at the bottom of the cartridge.
In DE shaving, we have all heard the mantra to let the weight of the razor determine the pressure and use no more or little more. That's to permit the blade to shave at the right angle for that particular razor.
On that note, see my post about dialing up an adjustable. I tried to put together a diagram that shows how the skin curves with the weight of a razor. Better yet, try it yourself: hold your left hand in front of your face. Turn it so that the palm is facing you. Allow the thumb to rest on the top of the hand just at the first knuckle of the index finger. Place a razor on the bump of flesh at the base of the thumb. Hold the hand up to your face and you'll see how the weight of the razor creates a curve and the blade will shave at the "flat" part of the curve. With more aggressive razors, the blade is at the top of the curve. And it's the curve that makes the hair stand up without stretching the skin.
There's a lot of nonsense in the form of mantras repeated over and over in shaving forums. There should be mild pressure applied with most if not all razors. There's no way the weight of the average razor alone could apply enough pressure to cut hair. Certainly my 1.1 ounce Slim Twist that I hold near the top couldn't apply enough pressure by itself to clear lather much less cut hair.
Instructions to beginners in these forums are sometimes backwards. A beginner should start with only the guard touching and gliding along the skin. Then gradually lift the razor until it cuts hair. The razor top or silo doors should never touch the skin. That leads to scraping and irritation. The guard should always touch the skin since that's largely what flattens and stretches the skin. The skin should always be stretched slightly.
If both the guard and blade touch the skin the angle will always be correct. If the top touches the skin the angle will always be less than optimal.
I get a BBS shave four out of five times without trying with one pass and a few touch ups along my jaw line where the skin wasn't stretched sufficiently. If I choose I can make five, six, or more passes with no irritation putting mild pressure on the razor and keeping the guard firm against the skin.
Richard
I am giving some thoughts only as a relative newbie and one who isn't so good with technique yet.
I think a lot depends on what razor is used. In the diagrams, the cap, blade, and guard are so aligned that it works either way.
However, when we get to the diagram with the aggressive razor everything changes.
Using the cap would make the safety bar more like training wheels. The safety bar would be less important as the safety bar will not touch the skin. Using the training wheels analogy, I can really go around corners but will not fall over if I get overzealous because of the training wheels. Using the cap, the blade angle will be consistant, but I can go further.
Using the safety bar to determine the angle makes the guard much more important. This might be an issue with some razors like my Parker where I think the bars are a little off. The bar would smooth the skin and be more functional. If the bar is adjusted further or closer to the blade, the blade angle would change but I could make a consistant angle for say the neck where I have to hold the razor differently.
I think a lot depends on what razor is used. In the diagrams, the cap, blade, and guard are so aligned that it works either way.
However, when we get to the diagram with the aggressive razor everything changes.
Using the cap would make the safety bar more like training wheels. The safety bar would be less important as the safety bar will not touch the skin. Using the training wheels analogy, I can really go around corners but will not fall over if I get overzealous because of the training wheels. Using the cap, the blade angle will be consistant, but I can go further.
Using the safety bar to determine the angle makes the guard much more important. This might be an issue with some razors like my Parker where I think the bars are a little off. The bar would smooth the skin and be more functional. If the bar is adjusted further or closer to the blade, the blade angle would change but I could make a consistant angle for say the neck where I have to hold the razor differently.
- Thread starter
- #49
The heavier razors, like Merkur Futur or Vision, are certainly heavy enough to cut stubble just by their own weight (unless you have particularly strong stubble).
Careful, I think it's exactly the other way around. Touching the guard first and lifting the handle leads to steep angles, scraping and irritation.
Best - MM
In the real world, as opposed to theoretical line drawings, there's a very small angle where ANY cutting of hair is done. This angle differs with different razors (and any possible adjustments). This angle varies from the plane where the blade first touches the skin with the guard on the skin (red line) to the plane where the blade first touches with the top on the skin (green line). If both the guard and top touch the skin (which is possible with some razors) then maximum scraping of the skin and irritation occurs. Less irritation occurs when only the top and blade touch the skin and the least irritation occurs when only the guard and blade touch the skin. This is the ideal angle so that the guard can first flatten and stretch the skin in advance of the blade. Having the blade touch first followed by top invariably leads to a less close and rougher shave.
Experienced good shavers can tell by feel and sound when the angle is ideal but beginners are better advised to start with the guard side touching and lift the razor until hair cutting begins. The other way, placing the top of the razor on the skin and dropping down until the blade starts cutting leads to more roughness and less close cutting of the hair.
It's quite easy for anyone to try both methods. No serious harm can be done by not having the optimal angle on a safety razor but the blade coming along behind the guard will do less skin damage than the blade coming first followed by the top. The top is there only to hold the blade, not smash down the skin where the blade has already been. The guard is there to position the razor and blade on the skin.
The Futur and Vision are unusually heavy razors around 4.4 oz compared to 2.8 oz for the Fat Boy which is heavy for a Gillette. Only a tiny minority of wet shavers use such heavy razors. Even fewer have one of these heavy Merkurs as their first DE razor.
Richard
- Thread starter
- #51
For the razor design you have showed, having top, guard and blade touch the skin would certainly be painful. However, for the normal Merkurs, for example, that is not the case. This illustrates that one has to examine one's own razor and then obey general principles.
One of those general principles is that the steeper the angle between blade and skin, the more scraping will occur and therefore less cutting and more irritation. The shallower that angle the gentler the shave; up to a point. If the angle gets too shallow, one won't get a close shave.
Again, that depends on the razor design.
I don't think gents are advocating that the top should be used to "smash down the skin". Starting with the top touching the skin first is pointed out as a way to find the proper shaving angle.
Regarding the guard, its role is foremost in preventing angles that are too steep. It's a safety bar, not so much a skin flattener or stretcher. Skin tensioning is most often done behind the razor, or with thumb and index finger stretching an area with the razor in between. Overall, the guard is fairly useless. In the extreme, there is no guard at all, which works just fine if one obeys general principles.
Also, the safety bar doesn't really flatten the skin, it actually leads to a depression in the skin behind it. That does change certain aspects, and that's where the concept of pressure is very important, but general principles still hold.
Regarding your earlier assertion:
That may or may not be true, depending on the razor. This advice might actually be quite dangerous for those who are trying an adjustable razor with a wider gap. But then again, one would hope that those gents have spent some time examining their particular razor to map out how they work.
Best - MM
I don't want to belabor the issue but I would like to ask some more questions. I examined my Merkur HD and I think that the blade exposure extends a little past the line between the cover and guard. Is a little past okay and should I still try to align all three? I do have a problem with scraping while using the HD and I have been trying the cover method. If the guard is fairly useless, what would be the point in having an adjustable that separates the blade from the guard--outside of a small distance? The diagram Lionhearted posted is really a superspeed which is considered most gentle. Isn't the HD considered more aggressive than the SS? To me the SS has a flat head and is not as easy to use the cover to determine the blade angle. The HD seems to be uniquely designed so that the cover and blade are more parallel for using the cover method.
Thanks for the thoughful responses from everyone.
- Thread starter
- #53
I can't speak for all Merkur heads, but for the ones I have, the situation is pretty much exactly as shown in the pictures posted by Xavier earlier in the thread. You may not be able to align top, blade and guard on both sides. However, it doesn't really matter what the design of a razor is or what imperfections it has, as long as it allows one to obey the basic principles.
The main point of adjustables is to vary the gap between guard and blade. For one, that allows for an easier shave when the stubble is fairly long, because the hairs won't get squashed by the guard. It also increases the range of angles for which the blade edge can actually touch the skin surface, which allows for more aggressive shaves. Obviously, the greatest freedom, and thus the most aggressive shaves are provided by razors that don't have guards, i.e. straights.
IMO, the most important property for defining the aggressiveness of a DE razor is the range of angles where the blade edge can touch the skin. However, there are other factors, for example, how much the blade is curved. The latter has to do with how stable the blade edge is. A strongly curved blade (as in Merkurs, for example) is under high tension and generally has less vibration than a blade that is simply flat. So, even if the accessible range of angles is similar for two razor designs, other aspects can give them a significantly different aggressiveness.
Best - MM
There are two general principles in cutting with a blade in a safety razor. These principles are perhaps best illustrated by the most efficiently designed tool for cutting off human heads, the guillotine. This tool replaced the sword and axe which required more frequent sharpening and greater skill to remove heads cleanly with a single stroke. Sometimes several strokes were needed with a sword or axe while a single pass was always sufficient with a guillotine.
The first principle is that the actual cutting angle is determined primarily by the edge of the blade, not the blade holder. The cutting angle is ground into the blade itself. A properly designed holder will allow only a very narrow angle where the blade will cut.
The second principle, and for wet shavers the most important is that the cutting should never be directly through the hair. The blade, either by design or by movement, should slice through the hair at an angle. With a guillotine this is accomplished by the angle on the blade. With a safety razor a diagonal slicing motion provides the correct blade angle to cut through a hair. I doubt if one out of a hundred wet shaver hobbyists moves a safety razor in the right direction. Certainly those in the forums who talk of with the grain, across the grain, and against the grain have never learned how to get a close single-pass shave. As Gillette emphasized the cutting should always be done with a diagonal movement to slice the hair at an angle instead of cutting the hair head on.
The original purpose of the guard was a safety bar but it rapidly evolved beyond that. Improvements in guard design were still being made on the Tech in the 1970's to make it a better skin stretcher.
The original purpose of the guard had nothing to do with angles; it was to limit the depth of a skin cut which made a safety razor less dangerous than a straight. The secondary purpose of positioning the razor for the proper cutting angle developed quickly in Gillettes. Other manufacturers, such as GEM, took a different approach positioning the razor using the top.
Held properly the guard bar on a razor does flatten the skin in the sense that it eliminates highs and lows where the guard rests making the skin just in front of the blade a uniform height. Any depression is immaterial and shouldn't be happening. That probably indicates too much pressure.
General principles that apply to a straight razor do not necessarily apply to safety razors. Some safety razors are better designed than others.
Richard
The first principle is that the actual cutting angle is determined primarily by the edge of the blade, not the blade holder. The cutting angle is ground into the blade itself. A properly designed holder will allow only a very narrow angle where the blade will cut.
The second principle, and for wet shavers the most important is that the cutting should never be directly through the hair. The blade, either by design or by movement, should slice through the hair at an angle. With a guillotine this is accomplished by the angle on the blade. With a safety razor a diagonal slicing motion provides the correct blade angle to cut through a hair. I doubt if one out of a hundred wet shaver hobbyists moves a safety razor in the right direction. Certainly those in the forums who talk of with the grain, across the grain, and against the grain have never learned how to get a close single-pass shave. As Gillette emphasized the cutting should always be done with a diagonal movement to slice the hair at an angle instead of cutting the hair head on.
The original purpose of the guard was a safety bar but it rapidly evolved beyond that. Improvements in guard design were still being made on the Tech in the 1970's to make it a better skin stretcher.
The original purpose of the guard had nothing to do with angles; it was to limit the depth of a skin cut which made a safety razor less dangerous than a straight. The secondary purpose of positioning the razor for the proper cutting angle developed quickly in Gillettes. Other manufacturers, such as GEM, took a different approach positioning the razor using the top.
Held properly the guard bar on a razor does flatten the skin in the sense that it eliminates highs and lows where the guard rests making the skin just in front of the blade a uniform height. Any depression is immaterial and shouldn't be happening. That probably indicates too much pressure.
General principles that apply to a straight razor do not necessarily apply to safety razors. Some safety razors are better designed than others.
Richard
- Thread starter
- #56
This is certainly correct - in principle. However, I bet that only very few men have sufficiently large beard regions where the hairs all grow in the same direction. The vast majority of men has the stubble growing in all kinds of directions. Thus, a straight move will catch some hairs head on, while most will be cut at an angle. A slicing move will probably have little effect. J-hooking might be the best cutting technique in this respect, because the angle of attack is varied, thus increasing the probability of catching hairs at a favorite angle.
The Slant addresses this issue somewhat and then throws another approach into the mix: a twisted blade edge. This results in a scythe-like cut and is very efficient.
It needs to be pointed out that this discussion was about a different kind of angle than the bulk of this thread: it's the angle of the blade edge relative to the direction of movement of the razor.
I would also claim (unverified, of course) that a close, single-pass shave using a DE razor is practically impossible to achieve for most men, unless they have a very light and soft beard. Furthermore, a single-pass shave is not the goal for most men; that can better be achieved with multi-blade cartridge razors, albeit at a price, both monetary as well as irritation-wise. To keep irritation at a minimum, it is best to find a balance between number of passes and aggressiveness. I bet, for men, this requires more passes than just one. However, we digress from the topic of the thread.
Best - MM
The diagram that Lionhearted posted of the ss looks as though the guard, blade, and cover also line up for the best shave angle. The original diagrams of the post show that to be the case for the HD. Starting from the cap may make the angle too shallow and from the guard too steep. One might just go right to the alignment of cap, blade, and guard because the line between cap and guard is easily seen. For some reason I have gotten my best results from a Gilliette Tech. I look at the Tech and I see a very flat cap and razor which makes my choice of angle limited. Anyway, I really appreciate this thread and the diagrams. Thx.
mantic mentions in some of his videos that the diagonal motion works well if you can keep from slicing into your face. That statement seems to prove the theory that the diagonal motion cuts better, all other things being equal, i.e.: if one uses a given pressure moving straight down without cutting his skin and then uses the same pressure at too much of a diagonal stroke and cuts his skin, the motion is the variable that changes the cutting effectiveness. Then again, have you ever tried to cut bread with a straight knife? Or maybe a tomato with a bread knife? Who knows? Either way, this thread is awesome and I vote Sticky!!
The larger angles result in a more aggressive disposition of the blade. Therefore, using the top cap as a guide is safer than using the guard as a guide. However, I am convinced that many gents instinctively place the guard against the skin and then vary the angle, rather than using the top as a guide. I am saying that, because thats what I did until I looked into things, and I dont want to believe that I am the only one making this mistake.
Excellent advice! Thanks!
this is a great reference thread, as they say a picture is worth a whole lot of words or is it 1000 words eh nevermind
add me to the list that thinks this should be a sticky as well
add me to the list that thinks this should be a sticky as well
Similar threads
