New bevel - wedge

[TaffyApple]

Hi all,

Working on my first SR (a wedge) I had for Christmas....it's been emotional

Basically it wouldn't shave at all at first so I gave it a good strop. It shaved afterwards but was not comfortable in any way at any angle and kept tugging (couldn't shave my top lip at all). So, since I have a nice array of kitchen kives I keep pretty sharp with my combination whetstone, I thought I'd try honing it a bit to see if that helped.

I've gone back and forth since then, and am not sure what the exact issue is, but I've decided to re-set my bevel completely, as the razor wouldn't really do anything other than shave arm hairs when wet anyway.

The marks from my initial honing with one piece of tape (and way too much pressure) are hilarious, but nothing I can really do about it now. I'm about an hour and a half in and have a half decent bezel started (double tape this time), but it's essentially slanted at a downward angle from toe to heel.

Any tips on how to rectify this please? Want to make sure I get this part done properly.

I'll try and attach a few pics that show the bezel as best I can...I think I'm probably the worst first attempt at bevel setting on an SR you've ever seen, but I'm not giving up!

I've also had a snag of the tape wearing off and adhering to my stone, causing things to jump if I try and keep going. Taking it off with sandpaper works but before long I have to replace the tape anyway. I'd love to do it without tape, but I don't want to lose what little mirror I have left tbh.

 

[Jnatcat]

Hmmmm really not sure what to tell you, it’s beyond my ability to advise.

 

[Gamma]

I remember the name RenRen from a couple years ago - have not heard of them since - it might be good to see if you can find reputable sources that have experience with that brand. It's entirely possible that it will take an edge and hold it. It's also possible that the steel is too soft and it'll never hone up right. But if you find out that it does have good steel for taking a razors edge.....

First, I'd measure the spine and width and calculate the bevel angle. Figure out what your angle is without tape - then with tape. Anything radically than 17 deg without tape should be thought on carefully before proceeding. If it's much lower than 17 without tape, then figure out what you need to add to the spine to get it where you want it or where you think the steel will hold up. There is a formula sheet online that will help you calculate bevel angle - just google search bevel calculator. You'll need calipers to measure the dimensions accurately.

After sorting out the geometry, get a 1k stone to set the bevel on, or something close. Razors are usually honed on stones ranging from 1k - 12k. Not sure what your combo stone is but my old combo stone was like 180/320 or something and it was not acceptable for razors.
Chances are, the bevel on that razor isn't going to be 'perfect and having it angled one way or another won't matter to the shave. Uneven bevels are 'normal' on wedges.

Sounds like you're used to sharpening knives. Razors are different in some ways. It might pay off to do a bit of research on razor honing to see what's involved and how to go about it. When/if you have questions, there's a lot of resourses and help to be found here so ask away.....

 

[buca3152]

No first hand but I've heard unfavorable results with this brand.

 

[alx gilmore]

Good luck with your wedge. If you are still working on it I suggest that you use Kapton tape over your black electrical tape. Kapton is a very thin wear resistant tape that can cut down on the wear of the black tape, so that you can maintain the geometry of your angles during honing. Any tape wears, even solid steel tape, but Kapton is a lot better than the electrical alone.

Alex

 

[Alum of Potash]

If the tape isn't working, it looks like you might need to hone it like a kitchen knife, but narrower. Find 90 degrees, then 45, then 22.5, then 11.25 on down until the spine is just hovering free-hand above the stone and stay with that.

 

[TaffyApple]

Thanks all. Gamma my stone is a 3000/ 8000 corrundum based one I bought online from Amazon. Not the greatest quality I know but it did a really decent job on my folded steel knives once I got used to keeping the angle set and now they demolish almost any test thrown at them.

I contemplated getting a 1K stone but thought I'd see how the 3K went first, even though its bound to take longer, might be worth a try, but I'll definitely get some calipers come pay day, thanks for that! So essentially the bevel may never be completely even all the way across, and that's 'ok' on a wedge??

Also I think it was yourself a saw a video on last night from another thread about bevel setting, talking about bevels with a piece of paper...BIG help so thanks!!

 

[TaffyApple]

Good luck with your wedge. If you are still working on it I suggest that you use Kapton tape over your black electrical tape. Kapton is a very thin wear resistant tape that can cut down on the wear of the black tape, so that you can maintain the geometry of your angles during honing. Any tape wears, even solid steel tape, but Kapton is a lot better than the electrical alone.

Alex

Thanks for the tip on the tape Alex, this has been driving me crazy!!

 

[TaffyApple]

If the tape isn't working, it looks like you might need to hone it like a kitchen knife, but narrower. Find 90 degrees, then 45, then 22.5, then 11.25 on down until the spine is just hovering free-hand above the stone and stay with that.

I was contemplating this but thoight it might be a no-go with a razor blade, nice ti know it might be a fall-back option, so thanks!!!

 

[Disburden]

I feel bad for new honers. So much information from different people can make your head spin.

I would use two layers of tape or the bevel calculator as keith suggested. Kapton tape is almost $20.00 so Id pass. If you hit the edge the bevel should set eventually. Some razors take 15 minutes to set a bevel...others take hours. They're all different.
That's IF THE RAZOR IS GOOD. IF the steel is bad then that won't matter.


You also need to make sure you are biasing the edge to the stone...which means when you are honing you are concentrating the edge to the stone slightly...not hard.

 

[Gamma]

^
agreed.

Plain electrical tape works fine - I've honed literally 100s of edges on Super 88 and Teneflex 1700. And before someone asks, yes - I've used it to cut many many brand new bevels into tons of old wedges also.
I actually own Kapton tape, working on amplifiers/electronics is another 'hobby' of mine. I've used it for honing a few times, and I didn't find it to help and it wears too fast - plus the added cost is a huge negative. It seems to embed deeply into stones too, which is annoying. Super 88 releases easier and cleans up/off blades and stones easier too. I have a lot of other types of tape, and tried most of them - thus far I have never found a reason to use anything other than 3m electrical tape. When using use a proper stone for setting bevels, and using proper technique, good electrical tape works fine. If you're tearing it up, you're doing something wrong. Period. At that point, fixing the technique is the thing to do.
Cheap/bargain electrical tape is no bueno though...that stuff shreds if you look at it the wrong way.

A 3k/8k corundum stone for knives is going to, no doubt, add complications when honing razors. Stones used for razors are usually alundum based, with a softer binder. There are many reasons for this that we don't need to get into here. Can you achieve success with your stone? Maybe - possibly - I don't know. I have used an old Carborundum stone for setting bevels but not every old carborundum stone works well in that slot. Any claimed success with a kitchen knife stones will probably depend on who's judging the success I think. Chances are, I would not like an edge off that stone. But that's just my take on things. On the other hand, when you have no edge to start with, any edge can be a success I guess.

You can fashion a spine out of brass tubing and tape that if you want to; just cut a slot in it lengthwise and shove it on the razor. Freehand honing is always an option but it will not deliver the same results you'll get when honing on a solid fixed guide that is a part of the razor's geometry.

All of this is conjecture though - until you know the razors actual bevel geometry and whether or not the steel is up to snuff - it's just guesswork. Get the numbers figured out, and find out if the blade is capable of holding an edge. There are few things worse than spending an hour cutting a bevel into steel that is too soft to hold an edge. There are a ton of razor-shaped-objects out there, it might pay to find out if this is one of them or not.

 

[Gamma]

Forgot to mention - using tape on a 'pure' wedge can be tedious - both sides have to be equal or the geometry will be off. Using two layers of tape can exacerbate that scenario twofold. So care must be taken. On a hollow blade, the end of the tape is hidden in the hollow, but on a full wedge you can wind up riding on the actual edge of the tape and that is why you need both sides to be identical.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I was contemplating this but thoight it might be a no-go with a razor blade, nice ti know it might be a fall-back option, so thanks!!!

It sort of is a no-go with hollow-ground razors. But a lot of wedge-grind razors have come down to us with little bevel or spine wear, and I don't think they were using electrical tape "back in the day." Normally, I would suggest two layers of tape, as has been mentioned, but there seemed to be so much bevel wear there with one layer of tape that two layers didn't seem like it would do much. It certainly would be more controlled that way, and wouldn't hurt to try. You could even do three or four layers of tape, if two isn't getting you there.

Edit: in rereading your remarks, I note that you mention using two thicknesses of tape in combination with a secondary bevel. That secondary area as shown does seem to be taking things in the right direction. As for the tape tearing and stone clogging like that, it is sort of in the nature of the tape to stain the stone, but that tearing could be that you are pressing too hard on the spine. Lighten up on the spine and that problem may be lessened.

 

[IMightBeWrong]

That’s quite an edge bevel! Considering the tape use and the resulting high edge grind I am thinking the blade geometry may not be ideal for a razor that’s intended to be used. Could you provide a picture that illustrates the grind geometry?

 

[TaffyApple]

It sort of is a no-go with hollow-ground razors. But a lot of wedge-grind razors have come down to us with little bevel or spine wear, and I don't think they were using electrical tape "back in the day." Normally, I would suggest two layers of tape, as has been mentioned, but there seemed to be so much bevel wear there with one layer of tape that two layers didn't seem like it would do much. It certainly would be more controlled that way, and wouldn't hurt to try. You could even do three or four layers of tape, if two isn't getting you there.

Edit: in rereading your remarks, I note that you mention using two thicknesses of tape in combination with a secondary bevel. That secondary area as shown does seem to be taking things in the right direction. As for the tape tearing and stone clogging like that, it is sort of in the nature of the tape to stain the stone, but that tearing could be that you are pressing too hard on the spine. Lighten up on the spine and that problem may be lessened.

Thanks. I lightened up massively on the pressure (virtually none at all, just enough to hold it against the stone) last night and the tape didn't shred as much, but still did wear. Had to change it abou 3/4 times in the hour & a half I was working on it, so I suspect the tape quality personally as it's not 3M.

Will definitely be getting some calipers and working things out from there. Trying ti find out the quality of the steel from manufacturer but no joy yet

 

[TaffyApple]

That’s quite an edge bevel! Considering the tape use and the resulting high edge grind I am thinking the blade geometry may not be ideal for a razor that’s intended to be used. Could you provide a picture that illustrates the grind geometry?

I probably could, but you'll need to explain exactly what you want to see or you'll just get a very basic picture of a wedge.

 

[TaffyApple]

Forgot to mention - using tape on a 'pure' wedge can be tedious - both sides have to be equal or the geometry will be off. Using two layers of tape can exacerbate that scenario twofold. So care must be taken. On a hollow blade, the end of the tape is hidden in the hollow, but on a full wedge you can wind up riding on the actual edge of the tape and that is why you need both sides to be identical.

This is the one thing I'm happy about. I've been ridiculously picky about the tape being even as I've seen videos of others just slapping it on (even on wedges).

 

[TaffyApple]

^
agreed.

Plain electrical tape works fine - I've honed literally 100s of edges on Super 88 and Teneflex 1700. And before someone asks, yes - I've used it to cut many many brand new bevels into tons of old wedges also.
I actually own Kapton tape, working on amplifiers/electronics is another 'hobby' of mine. I've used it for honing a few times, and I didn't find it to help and it wears too fast - plus the added cost is a huge negative. It seems to embed deeply into stones too, which is annoying. Super 88 releases easier and cleans up/off blades and stones easier too. I have a lot of other types of tape, and tried most of them - thus far I have never found a reason to use anything other than 3m electrical tape. When using use a proper stone for setting bevels, and using proper technique, good electrical tape works fine. If you're tearing it up, you're doing something wrong. Period. At that point, fixing the technique is the thing to do.
Cheap/bargain electrical tape is no bueno though...that stuff shreds if you look at it the wrong way.

A 3k/8k corundum stone for knives is going to, no doubt, add complications when honing razors. Stones used for razors are usually alundum based, with a softer binder. There are many reasons for this that we don't need to get into here. Can you achieve success with your stone? Maybe - possibly - I don't know. I have used an old Carborundum stone for setting bevels but not every old carborundum stone works well in that slot. Any claimed success with a kitchen knife stones will probably depend on who's judging the success I think. Chances are, I would not like an edge off that stone. But that's just my take on things. On the other hand, when you have no edge to start with, any edge can be a success I guess.

You can fashion a spine out of brass tubing and tape that if you want to; just cut a slot in it lengthwise and shove it on the razor. Freehand honing is always an option but it will not deliver the same results you'll get when honing on a solid fixed guide that is a part of the razor's geometry.

All of this is conjecture though - until you know the razors actual bevel geometry and whether or not the steel is up to snuff - it's just guesswork. Get the numbers figured out, and find out if the blade is capable of holding an edge. There are few things worse than spending an hour cutting a bevel into steel that is too soft to hold an edge. There are a ton of razor-shaped-objects out there, it might pay to find out if this is one of them or not.

All I've managed to find about the steel quality is that it's stainless (pic attached).

 

[IMightBeWrong]

I probably could, but you'll need to explain exactly what you want to see or you'll just get a very basic picture of a wedge.

I’m curious if there’s any hollow to the grinding as the pics make it look like there’s a bit. Usually a wedge has a very shallow hollow grind rather than a deep one like thinner Razors. Considering how high your bevel is coming up, especially considering that you used tape, I’m wondering if the grind will show why the edge grind is coming up so high from your hone.

 

[Slawman]

Try the "Tap & Wobble" test. Many of the old wedges are not straight. I got this test from Dr. Matt. He has some good videos on U-tube about finding & fixing problems with "Not" so straight razors.

Slawman