Need advice, cutting face

[acnp]

I've been doing wet shaving with a DE safety razor for a long time now, about 10 years, but I'm still having trouble in one area. When I shave my face, no real issues, I can get a good close shave fairly easily. But when I shave my neck/throat, forget it. Either I can't get a good close shave, or it looks (and feels) like I've used a cheese grater on my face. The "solution" that I've found is to only shave about once a week. The first few days it looks good, like cool stubble, but it quickly goes to "shady character." When I wait several days between shaving, it's usually better, but it's still not a good close shave. I think it just looks better by comparison.

I don't THINK it's technique, it happens even when I'm very careful and go slow, really watching the angle of the blade. I've typically used a shaving soap, this disc that sits in the mug and lathers up with a brush, but I've also tried cremes. I really like the brush and mug and would like to stick with that if possible. Is it the soap/creme I'm using? Do I need to use a face wash first? Note, I don't have acne and haven't since I was a teenager and I don't really get ingrown hairs either.

If this is just the best it's going to get, I guess I can accept it. I'll either just continue mutilating my face or accept that I'll never have a close shave. But I'm frustrated and so I thought I'd reach out for advice. Plus, I just ran out of shaving soap and was going to try a different type to see if that might help. But I don't want to buy some cheap chemically junk, but also don't want to spend a lot on something that isn't worth it.

Advice please?

Thanks!
Bryan

 

[Zapruder71]

Hi,
I'm pretty new to DE shaving and I get irritations on the neck, not so much when I shave WTG or XTG, but mainly when I shave against thee grain. Another factor for me is the lather when I use too little water with the soap.

 

[John Rose]

When I shave my face, no real issues, I can get a good close shave fairly easily. But when I shave my neck/throat, forget it. Either I can't get a good close shave, or it looks (and feels) like I've used a cheese grater on my face.

There's a thing that I call "ghost stubble".
It's when my fingertips feel stubble that remains after 2 or 3 passes. I'd keep after it, blade buffing against the grain repeatedly, and it never goes away.
Then I give up, rinse, apply alum (and styptic pencil if required), rinse again, throw on an alcohol-based aftershave.
Wait half an hour or so after my skin dries and that stubborn "stubble" has mysteriously disappeared and my neck feels smooth all over, but maybe with a little razor burn.
Eventually I learned to ignore it and my face feels much better, especially according to the alum and aftershave "feedback".

Whatever it is, the few short bits of beard left after a standard 3 or 4 pass shave with light pressure has to be much better-looking than a 6-day growth.
Don't "chase the BBS".

I've typically used a shaving soap, this disc that sits in the mug and lathers up with a brush, but I've also tried cremes. I really like the brush and mug and would like to stick with that if possible. Is it the soap/creme I'm using?

Unliikely, unless it's strongly scented. I discovered that many soaps with a lot of lime scent gave me some temporary irritation, but that's it. Too bad, because I like lime.
You can still use a brush even with "brushless" creams (like "Cremo"). They probably won't build into a high-volume lather, but that's not necessary anyway.
You can also mix them with soaps.
One of my favourite combos is Proraso White (in the tub) and Gillette "Pure" cream. I don't particular like either one separately, but they are great together.
Another pairing I like is Wilkinson Sword soap (in the blue bowl, hate the scent) plus Nivea Moisturizing shave cream (scent is so bland). Together I call it my "Blue Monday Superlather".

Blue Monday SOTD

• John Rose
• Jan 15, 2019

Personna barber blades, Wilkinson Sword soap, Nivea Originals cream, a Black-handled Super-Speed...

Do I need to use a face wash first?

I find that a 5-minute hot shower concentrating on my face and neck with regular bar soap and a wash cloth is all the prep I need. As it happens, I prefer a bar of Caprina Fresh Goat's Milk Soap for this. It's creamy enough to use as shaving lather too, in a pinch. Some people say Dove works too (as shaving soap).
I don't believe in "pre-shave oil" or any products dedicated to shaving prep. Maybe some of them are effective if you are in a hurry to shave, but I never am.

 

[Esox]

Welcome to the forum!

Advice please?

Start with the thread below. I had, key word there 'had', similar issues.

Gillette NEW LC Not Cutting It

 

[Scarry Knight]

Try different products. Use coconut, jojoba, or olive, walnut, or sunflower seed oil. Hemp oil is very easily absorbed by the skin. My skin felt great for two days after my last hemp oil shave. Or you might try shaving with a hair conditioner. I like Paul Mitchell’s The Conditioner for it’s exceptional slickness. The neck (as well as groin, ankles and wrists) is one area of your skin that is the most highly absorptive. You may be having problems with specific or categorized product ingredients. Solvents used in fragrances, and the other blood thinners (coumarin , salicylic acid) used in shave products are often what annoy some people via dermal or neural issues. Start with a minimalist approach and use items with as few, or as many allergen safe ingredients as you can find. Pet shampoos fit within that group and are another that I use to shave with, as a way to avoid soaps that irritate, and the reactions I have to fragrances.

You may stumble on products that do not cause as much difficulty, or you may find in the process of trying others, that it is more gear related. In that case, you can try to alternate between angles of approach and direction of the passes, try another razor or blade, or prepare the skin differently. Some say shaving in the morning is better for them than doing so in the evening. Try it at the end of a steamy shower.

 

[BigJ]

A few suggestions:
1. Be sure you have a good prep and protective lather.
2. Map your beard so you understand precisely what is happening in your problem area.
3. Try skin stretching.

 

[naughtilus]

My neck is similar. I've accepted the fact that daily BBS is out of my reach, but a good DFS is obtainable irritation free when I do the following:
1) Fatip Open Comb razor (or a Karve razor).
2) BIC Chrome Platinum, Astra Stainless Steel, Gillette Nacet or Gillette Sharp Edge blades.
3) Dripping wet lather.
4) Shallow angle.

 

[SucKO]

To the OP, what razor and blade combo are you using?

 

[MntnMan62]

The neck is notorious for being a difficult place to get a BBS shave. I've had trouble with my neck, specifically the left side, and can never get a BBS there. Have you mapped your beard? My shaves improved immensely after I did this and became aware of how my hair was growing. Then I was able to adjust how I approached the direction on each area of my face. I typically do 3 passes, WTG, XTG and ATG and then do a touch up pass. I've been able to improve the closeness of my shaves on my neck by modifying the direction that I shave on my neck, just under and just above my jawline. Even with that I still will feel stubble on the left side of my neck when I run my hand over it but no one can tell but me. I've accepted this and am fine with it.

 

[niels]

Hi @acnp . There are a lot of variables here, so I'll list a few things I've improved and perhaps this helps you out as well. I had given up on BBS for my neck, but surprisingly got there in the end with less irritation than I used to have.

You mentioned that it is better after skipping a day; the post-shave part below may give you some ideas since skin irregularities from irritation of previous shaves can cause issues the days after.

Shave:

• Slow isn't always better! A razor with more speed cuts much easier with less chance to be pulled down by the hair into the skin (or skin pulled upwards into the blade). Extremely light pressure though!
• Good blade contact with the skin helps efficiency and prevents re-shaves so less irritation:
  • Flatten the skin through stretching (more on that below)
  • Choose a stroke-path with the flattest contact for the razor (as much of the length of the blade should be in contact with the skin during the stroke). Even if this path isn't 100% the grain direction you want to shave, you can still get a lot better results.
  • Positions like a bullfrog-neck, hunching over the sink looking forward to stretch the neck, jaw closed and smile as wide as you can widens and flattens the neck. I'm not a fan of the bullfrog method though since it doesn't stretch so much and gives me more irritation.
• Stretching (also with the "Good blade contact" tips) not only flattens the area, but also irregularities in the skin and prevents the blade from digging in. You can do this with the "positions" mentioned above, but also with your off-hand... Rub your fingers on an Alum block for good grip, even with slick soap-residue. It also lifts the hair for more efficiency. Don't overstretch though: You could stretch new curves into the skin and you may raise the hairs up too high, causing in-grown hairs.
• Cold water shaves! This closes the pores and tightens the skin which makes it more robust. Check this on google... there are a lot of advocates for this approach and it worked quite well for me when I had more issues.
• More aggressive razor (e.g. open-comb or something like a Mühle R41): Angles are more forgiving and, with good blade contact, you'll get off more and require less passes.
• Sharper blade: Cuts easier through the hair, so less chance of digging in. If it does dig in, it is worse though, so light pressure and good stretching are important.
• Very slick soaps like MWF, Phoenix & Beau, Pereiras, et cetera, can help. Soaps like Proraso just don't leave as slick a film. Make the lather as wet as possible without it collapsing for best slickness (should not be drippy though). I then add more water to my lather each pass to trade cushioning for even more slickness (4th pass I can see the skin through a thin layer of soap).
• No-lather-no-shave: With the efficiency tips above, you should get close and consistent reduction without re-shaves. Add another pass or fix areas in the cleanup, not by re-shaving them within a pass.
• Blade-buffing for cleanup without lifting the razor from the skin works well for me: It keeps lather on the area on the back-stroke... very light pressure though.

Post-shave:

• Rinse very well after the shave to get rid of all of the soap, including from the pores (cold-water shave helps reduce soap in the pores). On warm water shaves, first rinse well with warm water. Always finish with cold water. Soap-residue can block pores, causing small bumps that can easily be cut during subsequent shaves.
• Splashing water (also during prep) may not reach all of your neck; check that you get lots of water there as well. Rinsing with a shower-head may work better.
• Don't use a high-alcohol aftershave or skip alcohol all together. It irritates and dehydrates. This may cause issues over multiple days with small bumps from an irritated skin.
• Invest in a very good balm that is absorbed well and isn't sweated out easily post use; again to prevent skin irregularities for next shaves. I've had great results with the Ker Aftershave Emulsion from Farmacia SS Annunziata 1561 and Dopobarba Mallo Di Albicocche from Antica Barbieria Colla. Both expensive, but do wonders for me. I'm sure there are cheaper options, but I haven't found any that work as well as these.
• Use a soap that already works great post-shave for your skin. For me tallow and lanolin work best (MWF, OSP, Phoenix & Beau, and many many more).

Mindset:

It always seems that my closest and best shaves start with me NOT trying to go for BBS or ultra smooth. For me, it starts with the desire for a light shave where I don't care about the end result. I wont decide on how many passes: I'll see how long I find it comfortable. As a result, I find I hold and move my razor as if painting and art-piece, even holding the handle with just 2 fingers for parts of the shave. I'll move as if it is the easiest thing in the world and I'm not even trying. These shaves also provide the most "Zen" for me
If I go for a BBS though, I'll get there in the end, but even if I pay attention to all these techniques, I usually end up with more irritation. The body follows the mind, at least for me​

I hope this gives you some ideas to try out. Let us know how it goes!

 

[niels]

3) Dripping wet lather.

I mentioned wet but not dripping, but this is entirely what works for you @acnp . I personally like a little cushioning on my 1st pass (with emphasis on "a little" as it can impede good blade-contact). Slickness is key for me though; with a less slick soap I'll gladly sacrifice cushioning for more glide.

 

[NickCutlip]

Welcome to the forum !!

 

[naughtilus]

Hi @acnp . There are a lot of variables here, so I'll list a few things I've improved and perhaps this helps you out as well. I had given up on BBS for my neck, but surprisingly got there in the end with less irritation than I used to have.

You mentioned that it is better after skipping a day; the post-shave part below may give you some ideas since skin irregularities from irritation of previous shaves can cause issues the days after.

Shave:

• Slow isn't always better! A razor with more speed cuts much easier with less chance to be pulled down by the hair into the skin (or skin pulled upwards into the blade). Extremely light pressure though!
• Good blade contact with the skin helps efficiency and prevents re-shaves so less irritation:
  • Flatten the skin through stretching (more on that below)
  • Choose a stroke-path with the flattest contact for the razor (as much of the length of the blade should be in contact with the skin during the stroke). Even if this path isn't 100% the grain direction you want to shave, you can still get a lot better results.
  • Positions like a bullfrog-neck, hunching over the sink looking forward to stretch the neck, jaw closed and smile as wide as you can widens and flattens the neck. I'm not a fan of the bullfrog method though since it doesn't stretch so much and gives me more irritation.
• Stretching (also with the "Good blade contact" tips) not only flattens the area, but also irregularities in the skin and prevents the blade from digging in. You can do this with the "positions" mentioned above, but also with your off-hand... Rub your fingers on an Alum block for good grip, even with slick soap-residue. It also lifts the hair for more efficiency. Don't overstretch though: You could stretch new curves into the skin and you may raise the hairs up too high, causing in-grown hairs.
• Cold water shaves! This closes the pores and tightens the skin which makes it more robust. Check this on google... there are a lot of advocates for this approach and it worked quite well for me when I had more issues.
• More aggressive razor (e.g. open-comb or something like a Mühle R41): Angles are more forgiving and, with good blade contact, you'll get off more and require less passes.
• Sharper blade: Cuts easier through the hair, so less chance of digging in. If it does dig in, it is worse though, so light pressure and good stretching are important.
• Very slick soaps like MWF, Phoenix & Beau, Pereiras, et cetera, can help. Soaps like Proraso just don't leave as slick a film. Make the lather as wet as possible without it collapsing for best slickness (should not be drippy though). I then add more water to my lather each pass to trade cushioning for even more slickness (4th pass I can see the skin through a thin layer of soap).
• No-lather-no-shave: With the efficiency tips above, you should get close and consistent reduction without re-shaves. Add another pass or fix areas in the cleanup, not by re-shaving them within a pass.
• Blade-buffing for cleanup without lifting the razor from the skin works well for me: It keeps lather on the area on the back-stroke... very light pressure though.

Post-shave:

• Rinse very well after the shave to get rid of all of the soap, including from the pores (cold-water shave helps reduce soap in the pores). On warm water shaves, first rinse well with warm water. Always finish with cold water. Soap-residue can block pores, causing small bumps that can easily be cut during subsequent shaves.
• Splashing water (also during prep) may not reach all of your neck; check that you get lots of water there as well. Rinsing with a shower-head may work better.
• Don't use a high-alcohol aftershave or skip alcohol all together. It irritates and dehydrates. This may cause issues over multiple days with small bumps from an irritated skin.
• Invest in a very good balm that is absorbed well and isn't sweated out easily post use; again to prevent skin irregularities for next shaves. I've had great results with the Ker Aftershave Emulsion from Farmacia SS Annunziata 1561 and Dopobarba Mallo Di Albicocche from Antica Barbieria Colla. Both expensive, but do wonders for me. I'm sure there are cheaper options, but I haven't found any that work as well as these.
• Use a soap that already works great post-shave for your skin. For me tallow and lanolin work best (MWF, OSP, Phoenix & Beau, and many many more).

Mindset:

It always seems that my closest and best shaves start with me NOT trying to go for BBS or ultra smooth. For me, it starts with the desire for a light shave where I don't care about the end result. I wont decide on how many passes: I'll see how long I find it comfortable. As a result, I find I hold and move my razor as if painting and art-piece, even holding the handle with just 2 fingers for parts of the shave. I'll move as if it is the easiest thing in the world and I'm not even trying. These shaves also provide the most "Zen" for me
If I go for a BBS though, I'll get there in the end, but even if I pay attention to all these techniques, I usually end up with more irritation. The body follows the mind, at least for me​

I hope this gives you some ideas to try out. Let us know how it goes!

Excellent info.

 

[SPR]

Brilliant information !

 

[niels]

Gillette NEW LC Not Cutting It

Amazing thread that! Thank you for sharing @Esox

 

[Esox]

Amazing thread that! Thank you for sharing @Esox

You're welcome.

A more rigid blade is a more predictable blade. That single element of razor design turned my shaving world upside down. The more rigidly the blade is held, the smoother my shaves are with a blade matched to my skin and stubble.

Its made such a difference in my shaves that I've now changed to GEM SE razors. GEM SE blades are .009" thick. More than twice as thick as a typical DE blade. The difference is instantly noticeable.

I didnt record my last shave here, but it was Monday evening or night. I dont remember.

MMOC/PTFE for its 4th shave.

WK.

Maggard Synthetic.

~100 hours since last shave. I dont think it would matter if it was around 200 hours.

Single buffing pass ATG. One clean up. The MMOC is all business and this was business as usual.

Nice comfy BBS. What more could be asked for.

I can do the same shave with my Fatip Grande, NEW SC, Old Types and even my post war Tech. The comfort level among all my rigid DE's is the same, only the efficiency varies. My Fatip Grande is my most efficient DE. My MMOC is twice as efficient as my Grande and because the blade is thicker and more stable, its also smoother and more gentle on my skin. It does however require a more finely honed technique to get the most from it.

AC blades are even thicker than GEM blades.

The GEM PTFE blade is very sharp. From what I read of the AC Schick Proline, it may better it. AC razors are next on my list.

Theres much to read around the forum on rigidity and rigid designs.

 

[Bredfan]

I'd bet the majority of guys have a more difficult time on the neck than elsewhere. Here's something not yet brought up...at least not as a primary tool.... direction.

We hear WTG, XTG and ATG all the time. But for me to get irritation free on the neck, I have to do EWWYCATG. That's "Every Which Way You Can About The Grain." No kidding.

Try this - it's what I do:

Pass 1: I go south to north. It is what I always did and I can do this without irritation. This direction (for me) doesn't cross or go against any patch of neck too severely.

Pass 2: North to south. This pass is easy in the center portion for me (either side of Adam's Apple). But outside, I need to be careful - If I feel anything rough at all, I stop that pass.

Pass 3-10: Okay not really.... The third "pass" isnt really a pass at all. It's a hodge podge of directional sections. The northeast wegde of my neck gets a few NE to SW strokes. The southeast get some East to West strokes from outside in to Adam's Apple. Same with other side in reverse. I also re-apply cream along the jaw line a couple times in mid pass, to go a slightly different direction for a small section. I also do some work around my jaw by opening my mouth to move the jaw line - this let's me get the area just under the jaw easily. The area directly under my chin has weird east to west growth, and I do that little patch with special attention to that weird directionality.

The point is that "Pass 3-10" is really a single last pass compsed of a multi-directional effort, that requires (for me) to keep reapplying a bit of cream as I go to the different sections.

The first month or so I did this, it was a bit unorganized. But now, I go through this process and it is just the normal third pass, and fairly well-organized.

Good luck!