My first no-irritation straight shave

[closer]

Hi all, wanted to share my experience, and also ask for further advice. I started straight shaving a few months ago, but have only done about 6-8 shaves. Hardware is TI Le Grelot 3/4 grind, bought shave read from Martin at rasurpur. Currently using Filly strop. I was getting terrible shaves previously, felt the razor scraping over the face like sandpaper. This was most likely due to a rounded edge formed by incorrect stropping. I've been practicing stropping, and I think I've improved my stropping technique quite a bit over the last few weeks - today, I did 10 laps on CrOX, then about 110 laps on the Filly, and got no irritation during the shave today. I have thick and coarse beard, and had a 2-day stubble, so did a good prep, and proceeded to do 2 WTG passes. Lathered up with T&H almond SC, and for the first time today, I felt the buttery smooth feeling people here talk about. Gone was the sandpaper-like feeling. I could actually concentrate on technique, try to figure out how to move the razor, rather than wince everytime I made a stroke.

The shave itself was an improvement from the past. I was able to achieve good beard reduction on the first pass. Cheeks are fine, I'm getting better around the jawline, stretching helps tremendously. Upper lip was better than expected, but chin is still a trouble area right now. The second pass was much easier, since the first pass removed a bunch of stubble. The result was still barely presentable, so finished with an XTG pass with my DE, then called it a day. I finished off with 30 laps on the Filly, then put the razor away.

Questions regarding next steps:
1. What do I need to do to continue to maintain the razor? Is stropping about 100 laps on the Filly sufficient? When would I need to hit CrOX again?
2. Thinking of getting a better strop, with cotton or linen component - leaning towards a Tony Miller horsehide/linen combo. What advantage would a dual-component strop like Tony's provide over the Filly?
3. How would I know when CrOX will not be sufficient to restore the edge? I'm thinking about a finishing hone, leaning towards a coticule. Any thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[Greyfox]

Congrats!

 

[netsurfr]

great progress. congrats!!!

 

[Scissors]

First, congrats on your first comfy shave! I also have a TI Le Grelot 3/4 to full hollow and love it. I don't get the wonderful smooth shave you describe everytime, but they're coming more often. And me being me, even a bad shave with a straight is more fun than a good shave with a DE.

So:

Questions regarding next steps:
1. What do I need to do to continue to maintain the razor? Is stropping about 100 laps on the Filly sufficient?

Probably more than enough, actually. And, of course, if you're not stropping it correctly, you'll end up rolling the edge, but it seems like you've been down that path and won't go there again.

I have a TM linen/latigo strop and do 25 linen/100 latigo before and after, but I'm an extremist. Since you now have your stropping technique sorted, I don't think you could be hurting the blade. See what other folks say for a more reasonable # of laps to maintain the blade.

When would I need to hit CrOX again?

There are different schools of thought on that, and many (maybe most?) would say to use the CrOX on a paddle strop or piece of balsa wood. There might be a consensus around using the CrOX when the blade stops responding to regular stropping, i.e., when you'd use a barber's hone, but folks may suggest using it more often, or perhaps using a different paste, e.g., diamond paste.

One answer I don't think you'll get is everyday or everytime you shave.

2. Thinking of getting a better strop, with cotton or linen component - leaning towards a Tony Miller horsehide/linen combo. What advantage would a dual-component strop like Tony's provide over the Filly?

My TM is a 3'' wide one, so I don't have to use an X-pattern. (I probably should anyway, but I don't) Also, the linen is rougher than the latigo or horsehide, but not as rough as CrOX, so the time between refreshing and rehoning your blade should be longer than with just the horsehide.

I wouldn't put CrOX on the linen of your TM strop. You'll want those surfaces as they are.

3. How would I know when CrOX will not be sufficient to restore the edge? I'm thinking about a finishing hone, leaning towards a coticule. Any thoughts?

Err...when the CrOX is no longer able to refresh the razor? Not a very helpful answer, I know; you're looking for other signs that some laps with CrOX won't bring back the edge, so you wouldn't have to try with the CrOX and fail. Somebody here ought to have some insights.

Coticules are very versatile and, IIRC, can be used all the way from setting the bevel to a final polishing before stropping. That said, they require experience to know how to use them (when to dilute the slurry, how much to dilute it, etc.) Unless you have to intend to get several razors to practice on, I figure learning to hone on a coticule means putting your razor out of commission for a few days. And then if you've put a good edge back on your blade, you won't need it again until it needs to be honed, and you'll end up having to re-learn a fair amount of stuff....

Now that I've said that, don't interpret that as "Never get a coticule!" If you end up with a few beauties that aren't shave ready, that'd be a great reason to get one: learn on the first razor, immediately apply what you've learned to the second one, reinforce it with the third—oh, hrm, looks like your regular shaver needs a touch up now, so you can use it again. In a nutshell, if you have to hone several razors one after another, that seems like a good situation to learn a coticule. Having one razor that you'll have to hone once or twice a year doesn't seem like a good situation to learn a coticule.

As to what to use instead, I'm not sure. I myself have the Norton 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combination stones, the Shapton 16K stone, and the Spyderco UF stone. I figure when the time comes, I'll go 4K to 8K to 16K or UF and then diamond on balsa (which I'll need to get) and then strop on linen and then latigo. (I can hear the heads shaking out there, "OMG, he is so going to ruin his razors.") But to be serious, I need an answer to that question as much as you do.

 

[Bart]

I did 10 laps on CrOX, then about 110 laps on the Filly, and got no irritation during the shave today.

Another perfect illustration how a lousy edge and a good edge are not that far apart.

1. What do I need to do to continue to maintain the razor? Is stropping about 100 laps on the Filly sufficient?

Yes, but adding a good linen to that would help.

When would I need to hit CrOX again?

As soon as you have two shaves in a row where you notice a slight decrease of sharpness. Two, because it often happens during the learning curve that a shave goes less well for other reasons. With "slight decrease", I don't mean that you should experience a real pulling sensation. You need to act sooner than that. It's more efficient to do 5 laps every 5 shaves, than to do 10 laps after 10 shaves.

2. Thinking of getting a better strop, with cotton or linen component - leaning towards a Tony Miller horsehide/linen combo. What advantage would a dual-component strop like Tony's provide over the Filly?

I believe the Filly to be a fine strop, so you would really only need to buy a separate linen component. A good linen, cleans the edge from soap residue, micro-corrosion, microscopical loose fragments, and by doing so, it prepares your edge for the leather strop. It will make you stropping more efficient, and keeps your leather strop clean in the long run.

3. How would I know when CrOX will not be sufficient to restore the edge?

When it no longer offers the expected improvement.

I'm thinking about a finishing hone, leaning towards a coticule. Any thoughts?

A Coticule can certainly bring the edge to premium condition, when a touch-up on the CrO no longer restores the edge to a smooth condition. You could use a Coticule to hone out all the micro-damage the edge accumulates by chopping coarse whiskers shave after shave. With experience you can get a perfectly smooth edge off just a Coticule. But in less experienced hands, CrO is excellent stuff to make up for what you can't manage to get off a Coticule. If you have the CrO on a balsa strop, you can still use a Coticule as a touch-up hone after improving keenness with the balsa strop.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[JPM]

Congrats!

 

[Luc]

Congrats! I think the gents got you cover up here!

 

[closer]

Hi folks, thanks very much for the advice. Sounds like I need to get myself a linen strop. Will probably get a TM, been drooling over that for a few weeks!

I did another shave on Sunday, after stropping on the Filly for a 100 laps. This time, I got some more irritation, and beard reduction was about the same as the day before, which is to say, not even CCS after 2 WTG passes. I will attribute that to technique and angle for now, and will continue working on it. However, increase in irritation surprises me. Either I unwittingly used too much pressure, or just one shave after CrOX dulled the razor to where it needs another touch up. I will try one more shave, this time with increased focus on no pressure, and if I get the same results, will hit CrOX again.

So, again, few more questions:
1. is it unheard of to require a touchup every couple of shaves? I should mention that I do have fairly thick and coarse beard. My normal shave is with a Merkur 38c barberpole DE with Feather blades, and I toss the blades after 2 shaves.
2. I've also read that frequent use of CroX will round the edge, and will require a re-hone with bevel reset, so am a bit concerned about that. If I do need to touch up every couple of days, will I be better off with a coticule, or barber hone? My thinking was, a coticule is a versatile stone that can be used with a slurry when more work is needed, and I could use it with water only for touchups. Don't tell me to get both and try out both options

Thanks.

 

[superbleu]

For the first question, I'm not sure about CrOx as I don't use it, but On a finishing hone, you can probably do it as often as you like and it won't be bad at all as it doesn't remove much metal if any, and mostly just polishes the edge.

For part 2 barber's hone is cheaper and quicker, but in the long run the Coticule is probably the better option of the two.

 

[Bart]

1. is it unheard of to require a touchup every couple of shaves? I should mention that I do have fairly thick and coarse beard.

It's not unheard of, but almost invariably a "newbie" issue.
I think a lot of variables work against edge durability, when you're still learning, not in the least stropping technique that leaves margin for improvement. But also a less than perfect shaving angle and pressure may have a negative impact.
Fortunately, there's not much you can do about all this, other than to keep shaving. These things have a way of improving with experience. In the mean time, you need to keep your razor up to speed. If that means doing more touch-ups than average, so be it.

2. I've also read that frequent use of CroX will round the edge, and will require a re-hone with bevel reset, so am a bit concerned about that.

What kind of stropping device do you use for CrO?
I don't recommend it on a "hanging" type of strop, because that is most prone to convex the edge. This is not a bad thing, until the convex shape becomes so severe it starts to decline shaving comfort. (translates to pulling).

If I do need to touch up every couple of days, will I be better off with a coticule, or barber hone? My thinking was, a coticule is a versatile stone that can be used with a slurry when more work is needed, and I could use it with water only for touchups. Don't tell me to get both and try out both options

If your coarse beard resembles mine, doing touch-ups only works for a few times. As I explained in my previous post, apart from getting duller, the edge also gathers micro-damage from the impact with coarse hairs. After 3 or 4 touch-ups (that's about 60 shaves, for me), I always need to do a bit more work than a mere touch-up. The nice thing about a Coticule is, that it won't have a problem with that.
Whether a barber hone can achieve the same, I don't know. I have recently purchased a cheap one of E-bay, but haven't had the chance of trying it yet.

Best regards,
Bart.

 

[closer]

Ok, I was planning the next shave for the weekend, but I've been working from home due to the snow. I had some time this afternoon, so got in another shave. I changed nothing this time around - I had done about 30 laps on the Filly strop after the last shave, and did another 100 or so more (lost count, actually). I can feel my stropping technique improving because I can feel the draw of the leather now, and can tell when the edge of the entire blade does not make contact during the x-stroke.

The shave itself was good, no irritation. I stuck with the same routine, 2 WTG passes. I actually had a 3-day growth, and was half-expecting a ton of pulling and tugging, but instead was able to mow it down reasonably efficiently. I ended up with very good reduction on the first pass, but then not a whole lot more on the next pass. End result was a closer shave than I've had before, but still not CCS - especially around chin and jawline. Reminds me of the first few days when I started DE shaving. I did find that I needed to keep the razor essentially flat against the face, or less than 10 degrees, for WTG strokes. Anything more, and its too harsh.

Further questions:

1. How much pressure is required while stropping? I have no trouble keeping the spine on the leather throughout the stroke, but find that to keep the edge as well, requires some pressure. This also causes a visible bend in the strop, even though I hold it fairly taut. Is this something I should be concerned with?

2. Do you folks keep the same angle throughout the shave, or does it change depending on the area of the face you are working on?

3. For the last couple of shaves, it seems I've been able to keep the blade shave ready by stropping. For those of you that use CrOX, how frequently do you use it to refresh the edge? Beyond that, at what frequency do folks require the use of a touch-up hone?

Thanks.

 

[ccgnet]

You will reach a point where they are all irritation free.

 

[LaughingAtFate]

Okay, I know most people suggest an angle of 30 degrees, But keep in mind that the grind of a razor bumps that out a little, I think a razor has a grind angle of about 15 degrees, So the "30" degrees turns into "15 degrees" within short order

Having said that, I've never really been able to work out if my angles are degree perfect, I go with what feels right, what seems to be cutting through the hairs. The angle varies due to what direction the blade is cutting, where I am on my face, and other small factors like that

'kay, now I've got that outta the way, You use as much pressure on the stropping as you use on your face, now I know you don't use a lot of pressure on your face, but if the leather is bowed visibly, you may need to re-think your stropping, you only need to slide the razor on the leather, you don't need to dig the spine into it

Touchups happen once every five to ten shaves for me, it varies for different people I guess, Basicly put, if you feel that your razor is still smoothing your face effectively, then it's not really needed

 

[Bart]

I stuck with the same routine, 2 WTG passes. (...) I ended up with very good reduction on the first pass, but then not a whole lot more on the next pass.

I think that's only logical. There is not a lot of reason why the razor would clip a hair shorter by performing a second identical pass.
I think you could be surprised by what an ATG (Against The Grain) pass can do for smoothness. It's nothing to be afraid of: just use short, gentle strokes, and keep the blade at a nearly flat angle.

I did find that I needed to keep the razor essentially flat against the face, or less than 10 degrees, for WTG strokes. Anything more, and its too harsh.

That seems rather flat for WTG, but if it cuts the whiskers, I wouldn't worry about it. A steeper angle during WTG might clip the hairs shorter to the skin, but that is of no consequence if you are going to do a second pass ATG.

1. How much pressure is required while stropping? I have no trouble keeping the spine on the leather throughout the stroke, but find that to keep the edge as well, requires some pressure. This also causes a visible bend in the strop, even though I hold it fairly taut. Is this something I should be concerned with?

I consider it more or less a myth that stropping should be done at zero pressure. If you strop correctly, focused on the spine, so that the slight bend in the strop is mainly below the spine, you can get a way with more pressure than you would normally need in order to get some friction going. In my experience, friction seems key for efficient stropping on clean leather. (pasted stropping is an entirely different matter). If your strop has a lot of draw, it 'll demand for less pressure to achieve good friction. But if it has little draw, you need to counteract with more pressure. Obviously, the more pressure you're going you put on the razor, the harder you need to pull the strop taut. How much pressure? Enough to feel a slight resistance. It doesn't take a lot. As long as you keep most of the pressure focused on the spine and let the edge follow, so that the strop bends mainly under the spine, you don't need to worry about deflection. I once made a drawing that shows this in detail:

2. Do you folks keep the same angle throughout the shave, or does it change depending on the area of the face you are working on?

I use many different shave angles, depending on the direction of the pass and the part of my face.
Here's another drawing I made to illustrate the principle:

3. For the last couple of shaves, it seems I've been able to keep the blade shave ready by stropping. For those of you that use CrOX, how frequently do you use it to refresh the edge? Beyond that, at what frequency do folks require the use of a touch-up hone?

The answer remains the same as in the other posts you posed the question: Touch up whenever the edge demands it. It varies too much depending on the razor, the person using it and the beard he shaves, to give any meaningful figure. All I can say, that for me it's somewhere in between 10 and 20 shaves.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[closer]

Thanks guys, especially Bart, for the detailed replies! I'm glad (and relieved!) to be part of a forum where people are so willing to help out a newbie. My straight razor journey has taken longer than I expected, especially compared to DE. Its amazing how much difference correct stropping can make in maintaining (or screwing up) the razor. I haven't given up yet.. stay tuned for more questions from me

 

[closer]

I think that's only logical. There is not a lot of reason why the razor would clip a hair shorter by performing a second identical pass.
I think you could be surprised by what an ATG (Against The Grain) pass can do for smoothness. It's nothing to be afraid of: just use short, gentle strokes, and keep the blade at a nearly flat angle.

Ok, that did it. I just got in another shave. Prepped well, stropped the razor over 100 times. Performed one WTG pass, took off quite a bit of stubble. I didn't quite get the buttery smooth feeling, but felt no tugging, and no irritation.

Then, I lathered up for the second pass, and taking Bart's advice, this time did an XTG pass on cheeks/sideburns, and ATG on neck. This was a bit awkward, especially with the non-dominant left hand. I went XTG from ear to chin. I had more control with my right hand, but cut less hair on the left cheek. In contrast, I cut more hair on the right cheek with my left hand, but ended up with some irritation. I even attempted XTG on my moustache area, but this was the most awkward with my left hand. Even so, I went almost flat with the blade, and this ended up being one of the smoothest areas.

On the neck, I went ATG. Surprisingly, most of the neck was actually fine, even almost BBS in a large area. The area just under the jawline, and on the chin, though, was not quite as smooth - I can feel the stubble in this area.

On the whole, I'm making progress. I would classify this shave as "respectable", almost CCS. It seems I need to work on technique and angles now. The angles are very different compared to a DE, and using the non-dominant hand adds a completely different dimension.

 

[Bart]

It's sound like you're having fun!

When you say you had more irritation at the parts you shave closer, that's completely normal when new. In a way of speaking, you can shave "above" the skin (not very close), you can shave at zero level (a close skin-friendly shave), and you can shave "into" the skin (still close, but with a lot of skin cells removed as well). Shaving "into" the skin is accomplished by too much pressure (typical for the non-dominant hand) and/or a steeper angle than needed. As a rule, the shallowest angle that get the job done, is easiest on the skin.

By the way, I admire you and others who tackle it with both hands. I shave only right handedly myself, so I can't offer much advice with that.

I think you're doing well.

Best regards,
Bart.

 

[closer]

Thanks, Bart. I really appreciate all the help you've provided, its been invaluable.

As to shaving with both hands - my first few shaves (WTG only) were with my right hand only. At one point a couple of weeks ago, I started using a shavette, and just for kicks, tried using my left hand, and found that it wasn't too bad - I actually had more control than I thought I would, so when I switched back to the straight, persisted with it. I wasn't thinking ahead to XTG and ATG passes though!

 

[Queequeg+]

my understanding was that CRO2 (just like the dovo black paste) does •smoothing*, but not sharpening - so that it really only does good *after* some sort of sharpening (a diamond paste, a barber hone refresher, a coticule, etc)?

 

[Bart]

my understanding was that CRO2 (just like the dovo black paste) does •smoothing*, but not sharpening - so that it really only does good *after* some sort of sharpening (a diamond paste, a barber hone refresher, a coticule, etc)?

Well, I beg to differ. Most CrO (it's actually Cr2O3)used for sharpening/polishing has a particle size of 0.5 micron. It's hard enough to abrade steel, among with its buffing action, which depends on plastic deformation of the peaks and valleys of a scratch pattern. Because we use it on substrates that have some give (even balsa), it starts out working primarily on the very edge, leaving an ever so slight convexity at the tip of the bevel. (a convexity that will very slowly grow, touch-up after touch-up). Because the abrasion is projected mainly at the very edge (the creation of the convex shape removes most of the steel from the tip), it is efficient in boosting keenness. Even if you don't trust this theory, the effect can still be noticed in practice very easily. Take a razor, that just lacks a bit of sharpness after honing, to a CrO pasted strop, and you'll notice how much keener it becomes. This can be observed with a HHT or while shaving.

The only problem I have with the use of CrO and other pastes, is that if you need to do a lot of work with the edge trailing (as opposed to the edge leading on the hone), the resulting edge will not be so durable. That happens because abrasive action always creates some bur-like material. With edge first honing, this is diverted away from the tip of the bevel, while with edge trailing honing the burring is deposited at the very edge. The very tip of the edge (the part that penetrates the hair cells) will be made of weaker bur-like steel. A bit of final edge correction on a pasted strop won't be affected much by this principle. But if the edge depends a lot on pasted stropping to get it keen enough, a durability price will be payed. Certainly if the beard is coarse. I personally started out sharpening mainly on pastes (Dovo red and CrO) and changed to a hone-based setup for this very reason.

This is probably too technical for the General Straight Razor Talk forum. I don't know how strict this is on B&B. If I crossed a line, I apologize.

Best regards,
Bart.