MWF: Now That's More Like It

[talbotdale]

I know, another MWF difficulty lathering thread. I bought two pucks of Mitchell's several months ago. Gave a few shots at bowl lathering right off the bat and could never get anything other than light airy lather that evaporated on my face. I put it under the counter.

I've tried it off and on with improved but not acceptable results. Then I read a thread on here about the Semogue 620 being a "soap killer". I bought one. My results were markedly improved but I still didn't see what all the fuss was about.

Three weeks later I milled the Mitchell's into a Tom's of Maine deodorant container. This morning I applied MWF as a shave stick and used my 620 that is four weeks down the road of break in and ... voila!

Now I know what everyone is talking about. Geez, it took awhile but I'm finally enjoying quality shaves with MWF. I'm hoping that lathering other tallows in the future will now be no problem.

Tal

 

[cymric]

The problem with MWF is not that it's tallow-based. It's not even the brush (not completely in any case). It's not water temperature (hypothesised to melt the lanolin), and within reason not water hardness (because it contains chelating agents which take care of hardness).

The problem is that it is a sodium-rich product, and thus more sensitive to loading time (hence the brush making more of a difference), and thus less inclined to yield the smooth meringue we all know from most other products which are almost invariably richer in potassium. Compare for example to Tabac: potassium stearate, sodium stearate, potassium tallowate, potassium cocoate, aqua, sodium tallowate, parfum, sodium cocoate, ....; MWF is sodium tallowate, potassium stearate, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, aqua, potassium cocoate, ... . Notice the almost mirror image of sodium and potassium salts.

If you meet MWF on its own terms and accept that the lather looks and behaves a bit different than what you are used to, then you'll probably have little trouble with it.

 

[Munxcub]

The problem with MWF is not that it's tallow-based. It's not even the brush (not completely in any case). It's not water temperature (hypothesised to melt the lanolin), and within reason not water hardness (because it contains chelating agents which take care of hardness).

The problem is that it is a sodium-rich product, and thus more sensitive to loading time (hence the brush making more of a difference), and thus less inclined to yield the smooth meringue we all know from most other products which are almost invariably richer in potassium. Compare for example to Tabac: potassium stearate, sodium stearate, potassium tallowate, potassium cocoate, aqua, sodium tallowate, parfum, sodium cocoate, ....; MWF is sodium tallowate, potassium stearate, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, aqua, potassium cocoate, ... . Notice the almost mirror image of sodium and potassium salts.

If you meet MWF on its own terms and accept that the lather looks and behaves a bit different than what you are used to, then you'll probably have little trouble with it.

That was a very informative chunk of information right there.

 

[PeterC]

Thank you cymric! I will keep this in mind when I try MWF out!

 

[Vlad]

The problem with MWF is not that it's tallow-based. It's not even the brush (not completely in any case). It's not water temperature (hypothesised to melt the lanolin), and within reason not water hardness (because it contains chelating agents which take care of hardness).

The problem is that it is a sodium-rich product, and thus more sensitive to loading time (hence the brush making more of a difference), and thus less inclined to yield the smooth meringue we all know from most other products which are almost invariably richer in potassium. Compare for example to Tabac: potassium stearate, sodium stearate, potassium tallowate, potassium cocoate, aqua, sodium tallowate, parfum, sodium cocoate, ....; MWF is sodium tallowate, potassium stearate, sodium cocoate, sodium stearate, aqua, potassium cocoate, ... . Notice the almost mirror image of sodium and potassium salts.

If you meet MWF on its own terms and accept that the lather looks and behaves a bit different than what you are used to, then you'll probably have little trouble with it.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Beat me to it.

 

[LarryAndro]

... Three weeks later I milled the Mitchell's into a Tom's of Maine deodorant container. This morning I applied MWF as a shave stick and used my 620 that is four weeks down the road of break in and ... voila!...

Would you be explicit, and tell us what you consider the difference makers? Milling, brush, what?

 

[maxman]

I've only been able to whip up nice lather from MWF using my G5 scuttle.
Otherwise I face lather it with no problem.
Try a drier brush with the old 3-finger pinch when you're loading up.
That works for me.

 

[Fbones24]

Oddly, MWF is the one soap that I have never had a problem lathering. I have lathered with badger and boar and on my face and in my scuttle. From day one, it was actually my easiest and most consistent soap to lather.

 

[Joe Edson]

Never had a problem lathering MWF, but I face lather and have read that you get better results doing that than bowl lathering.

I also milled my puck on arrival to fit the ceramic dish better and think that probably helped a bit too.

 

[cymric]

Oddly, MWF is the one soap that I have never had a problem lathering. I have lathered with badger and boar and on my face and in my scuttle. From day one, it was actually my easiest and most consistent soap to lather.

It depends very much on what you ‘grew up with’, so to speak; or rather, I think it does. I've noticed that relatively speaking MWF takes about double the amount of water before it reaches the smooth meringue state compared to, say Tabac or even a non-tallow soap like Pré de Provence; viewed in the opposite direction you'd drown these coming from MWF. Hence why face-lathering MWF is probably easier: one tends to pick up little soap for face lathering, and dipping a bit too much isn't really a problem, in fact it will in all likelihood yield better results.

I've noticed that soaps rich in sodium are usually troublesome and/or poor performers. Acca Kappa hard soap is such a product: lather-wise it behaves in much the same way as MWF; and I gather that the reformulated Erasmic stick was an abysmal product—which comes to no surprise given that there wasn't a single potassium salt in the ingredients. Whoever made that formula really fscked up pretty badly.

I still can't shave with MWF, though: my beard stabs any type of MWF lather to death. I really wish the formula would change to include more potassium: this would be a change for the best, really.

 

[cegadede]

Would you be explicit, and tell us what you consider the difference makers? Milling, brush, what?

None of them, this is a typical "used more product and it worked" kind of thing!

 

[Bestarrkin]

I've noticed that relatively speaking MWF takes about double the amount of water before it reaches the smooth meringue state compared to, say Tabac or even a non-tallow soap like Pré de Provence; viewed in the opposite direction you'd drown these coming from MWF.

+1 You are correct about your observation. I like MWF but it is perfect for a beard after 2-3 days with no shave. On the other hand MWF likes water because they a.k.a. sodium salts need water. FYI I have informed about sodium salts effect on mummying Pharoahs which they used sodium carbonate for taking out the water from human body.(also toothpaste dries your mouth because of sodium salts) However potassium has good relation with water and it is the key element of lathering process.

 

[talbotdale]

Would you be explicit, and tell us what you consider the difference makers? Milling, brush, what?

Larry Andro

I think it was the planets aligned: milling the soap and using it as a shaving stick resulted in my applying more product. Using the Semogue 620 that was now broken in meant that the brush held more water and the boar whipped it up into a nice dense lather. I'm not sure specifically what the difference was but this morning I lathered a great effortless lather for my shave.

Tal

 

[filedog]

In essence, more product is what alleviates the "foamy" lather which disappears quickly. I need to take more time and load more soap. Boars seem to be a natural pairing for that, looking forward to my Semogue custom boar!

 

[Gafer]

If you meet MWF on its own terms and accept that the lather looks and behaves a bit different than what you are used to, then you'll probably have little trouble with it.

+1

 

[ouch]

MWF (that's Esperanto for "not as good as Cella") is a product with such potential that I keep revisiting it despite the less than stellar results I've obtained so far. It's wonderfully moisturizing, and unique in the post rinse feeling it provides. It just takes so damned long to properly load.

I'm going to try milling it (quadruple milled now?), and failing that, I'm going to mill it with an equal amount of Valobra.

 

[ralpho]

MWF (that's Esperanto for "not as good as Cella")...

Please don't post such a translation when I'm drinking something since it has a tendency to make the liquid attempt to escape through my nose.

Thank you.

 

[Greg1911]

Oddly, MWF is the one soap that I have never had a problem lathering. I have lathered with badger and boar and on my face and in my scuttle. From day one, it was actually my easiest and most consistent soap to lather.

Me too.

I've never had anything but good results from "the fat".

Pre de Provence has been my problem child.

 

[rajagra]

Are there any tips for using MWF daily? I've had good lather from it, even just a few days ago, but since I decided to keep using it every day it seems to have gone downhill. I did get decent results yesterday by squeezing my badger brush before loading (the opposite of what normally works for me) but today I went back to my boar brush and squeezing that dry before loading didn't work.

I suspect I'm doing something wrong after the shave. Should I be rinsing the soap and it's container out after use? Should I be letting the soap dry thoroughly rather than put the lid on? Or is it just the cold weather?