Malfunctions

[OkieStubble]

YMMV Greatly. Mild rant.

Finally, if that training officer did not configure those +4s back to std and have him qualify with those mags, he did that officer a grave disservice because it is only a matter of time before the poop the bed again.

Rant on my friend, I enjoy it.

I remember you saying you work in the federal court system, but you are not LE, correct?

You must not have read my previous post very throughly sir. I will attempt to explain to you the realities of a “training officer” again.

They are usually doing two things. They are Mon thru Fri 8a-5p with cadets in the academy for 6 months of the year, or they are Thu thru Sun 6p-4a with rookies On the street during their FTO phases, for 6 months after their academy.

Department firearm instructors do not follow veteran officers around the rest of their lives looking for unknown possibilities for non perceived problems. We don’t have Federal budgets for manpower here sir.

Yearly re-qualifications, for veteran street working officers, who already have and use great officer discretion in their everyday duties and experiences do not get treated like young, wet behind the ears rookies sir.

So when they do show up for a scheduled re-qual, they don’t get patted down and stripped searched.

They are treated like the professionals they are and we all follow the rules of slides locked back in the holsters and no ammo when entering the range.

There were 20 people on the line when his pistol extensions became a problem. As a professional veteran officer of 3 years, his firearm was safely pointed down range during his trouble and the “training officers”. As you say, were right there on it taking care of it immediately when it happened. They also disqualified him and he had to run the course again.

Since it was a scheduled range time, there were other officers in waiting for their next scheduled time. Attempting to pose “what if’s” or “why didn’t the range officers” (not training officers) do this or do that questions are from the uniformed, because who can say what the range officers did or didn’t do with that young man when they pulled him from the line?

I didn’t go back there with them? I was on the line getting my re-quality. I’m not a busy body either, so I didn’t come up behind them and asked what was said or done or what they did or didn’t do.

I was a training Sgt. At the academy from 2005 to 2015 before promotion. The officer in question probably has had 3 years on, so while definitely not a rookie, he was hired on and went thru the academy after I came and gone there.

There are many things people can or cannot reason if they 1. have no understanding in How it works or goes.

 

[martym]

Amen!!!

 

[OkieStubble]

Sure does make me uncomfortable when folk talk about 1989 as a long time ago.

Lol’d, sorry.

 

[Acmemfg]

@OkieStubble

 

[xiletero]

Gen 1 Glocks had a real "recall" and for safety issues the striker system/ s plunger was changed!
And it's interesting how there is a plethora of aftermarket products and some cause more problems rather than solve any issues.
Now there is a fair amount of aftermarket parts coming to market for the Sig 320, will these fix the issues or just make things worse.....

 

[ScottChapin]

Aside from sites, I’ve thought of getting Apex triggers as my only mod, but I’m second guessing that now. The stock triggers on M&P Model 2 pistols are really descent and not messing with.

The VP9 and Q4SF triggers are amazing too, so why bother?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dojpros]

OK Stubbie

Feel better?

I am just a lowly federal prosecutor and have been for 23 years. What make me different I suppose is that lawyers stereotypically golf, I shoot.


I "qual" at least monthly with a local client agency and at least quarterly with a federal one. I have over 300 hrs of paid for by me "sleep away" training (Gunsite, Clint Smith-Thunder Ranch, Tom Givens-Rangemaster, Pat Rodgers-EAG/ Randy Cain-Cumberland Tactics/Todd Louis Green etc. and approximately 750-1000 "in service" hours with misc. client agencies, local and federal. I was introduced defensive shooting, IDPA and IPSC by guys who trained with Cooper beginning in the late 70s and whose IDPA Numbers are in XX or less.

I have an idea of how a qual goes. I venture to say I "qual" more than the vast majority of sworn LEOS. I know I have spent more personal time, personal talent and personal treasure than the thousands of LEOS I have encountered and the hundreds I have directly worked with.

I stand by my comments. If the HMFIC who dq'ed him did not put him back to spec (presuming there were two mag floor plates running around) he did the officer a dis-service.

I will go a step farther, if you are going to carry after mkt +4 mag extensions on a duty gun, you had better be 100% certain that they work. As they malfuntioned so spectacularly such that he was DQ'ed, I will make an educated guess that the officer in question failed to properly vet his life saving equipment before that session at the range.

Let me ask you a question- If you had your choice -do you want this officer to back you up on officer down/shots fired call with that gun using the extended mags in question or two std capacity OEM ones?

 

[nortac]

Aside from sites, I’ve thought of getting Apex triggers as my only mod, but I’m second guessing that now. The stock triggers on M&P Model 2 pistols are really descent and not messing with.

The VP9 and Q4SF triggers are amazing too, so why bother?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've considered an Apex trigger as well, still on the fence though. I've done the 3.5 lb. connector and 25 cent polish job, so my trigger is not bad, but still mushy with a long reset.

 

[Merle]

Sure does make me uncomfortable when folk talk about 1989 as a long time ago.

Ha! and then I pulled out the Beatles White Album... /sigh

 

[ScottChapin]

Ha! and then I pulled out the Beatles White Album... /sigh

That’s about 20 years earlier.!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jar_]

Ha! and then I pulled out the Beatles White Album... /sigh

John Mayall, Yardbirds, Cream ...

 

[Merle]

Bluesbreakers! The Beano Album "Have you heard?"
(ahhhh long and slow - playing it now

 

[OkieStubble]

OK Stubbie

Feel better?

I'm feeling ok, thanks for asking and caring so much.

I am just a lowly federal prosecutor and have been for 23 years. What make me different I suppose is that lawyers stereotypically golf, I shoot.

I have gathered as much from your time here sir.

I "qual" at least monthly with a local client agency and at least quarterly with a federal one. I have over 300 hrs of paid for by me "sleep away" training (Gunsite, Clint Smith-Thunder Ranch, Tom Givens-Rangemaster, Pat Rodgers-EAG/ Randy Cain-Cumberland Tactics/Todd Louis Green etc. and approximately 750-1000 "in service" hours with misc. client agencies, local and federal. I was introduced defensive shooting, IDPA and IPSC by guys who trained with Cooper beginning in the late 70s and whose IDPA Numbers are in XX or less.

I have also read this before from past posts I have no arguement or indifference about your talent or experiences with firearms or shooting sir.

I have an idea of how a qual goes. I venture to say I "qual" more than the vast majority of sworn LEOS. I know I have spent more personal time, personal talent and personal treasure than the thousands of LEOS I have encountered and the hundreds I have directly worked with.

I'm sure you do have an idea of how a qual goes. But my question is, do you have any idea of how a law enforcement qual goes? Do you have an idea of how LE standard operating procedures work and it's dynamics within LE culture when it comes to how LE instructors, rangemasters, range officers train, work, operate, rules, ethics and general, professional courtesy, when it comes to teaching, training, instructing and or treating veteran officers when either a rules violation happens? and the procedures that follow, to even attempt to know first, if a rule or procedure has even been violated in the first place?

I stand by my comments. If the HMFIC who dq'ed him did not put him back to spec (presuming there were two mag floor plates running around) he did the officer a dis-service.

This is would be my only indifference sir. This was your quoted comment:

Finally, if that training officer did not configure those +4s back to std and have him qualify with those mags, he did that officer a grave disservice because it is only a matter of time before the poop the bed again.

This above quote of yours, came from your post, that began first, with a story and complete list, of all your training and the many notches in your own personal belt of your experiences. Of which sir, I thoroughly enjoyed and have no doubts about. I have read plenty of your posts to know, that you seem well versed, knowledgeable and experienced in the things of firearms and shooting.

Of which sir, I also respect.

However, my OP, was simply only mentioning the 3 different malfunctions that happened on our range with the Sig P320's and the Glock 22 with the magazine extensions. Creating a thread and a subject matter, one must expect response from the other knowledgeable shooters and gun enthusiasts in here; and I do sir. Most other responses one can expect, can and will be positive and negative. That's ok too.

But one doesn't expect, especially in a Gentleman's forum as this. And from professional and experienced members such as yourself sir, taking my OP, and attempting to create a negative false narrative, just as the bolded portions of your above "response" or as you say "comments" that you "stand by."

This isn't the first time you and I have had indifference on one of my posts sir. But my question to you sir is; why do you and I, never have any kind of negative indifference, when it is you initiating the subject matter? Why is that negative indifference, only when you engage me or mine?

I have pretty thick skin sir and don't take things personally for the most part, but you creating a false narrative out of thin air, by even suggesting, what our department instructors did or didn't do with that officer, without your experience of how it runs or works just doesn't seem fair to me. Especially from a federal prosecutor, regardless of how much shooting experience you have.

your vast experience in shooting or firearms training sir, does not give you the right, to create a negative narrative from my OP, and then attempt to criticize anyone from my department other than or short of, the officer in question who brought the extensions in the first place.

Maybe you should have just asked me the question; "did those instructors, make him correct the issue? My answer, would have probably been the same as earlier, "I don't know, it wasn't any of my business and I didn't stick around." However, I have full trust in the professionalism of the range instructors in my department, regardless of whether I stuck around and found out what happened.

For you to attempt in projecting a negative narrative, that they would endanger themselves, others or the public we serve, just from me posting the fact that an officer brought extensions to the range that didn't work, Seems either unprofessional to me from someone here who also serves the public and from someone here who I respect much of what they post when it comes to shooting and firearms.

This isn't the first time sir, so it makes me wonder or think, you are looking to be critical or create negativity when it comes to me? I certainly hope i'm wrong sir?

I will go a step farther, if you are going to carry after mkt +4 mag extensions on a duty gun, you had better be 100% certain that they work. As they malfuntioned so spectacularly such that he was DQ'ed, I will make an educated guess that the officer in question failed to properly vet his life saving equipment before that session at the range.

Now you see, we both agree on this. and if you would have just simply read my earlier posts, instead of creating negative false narratives in an attempt to criticize our range instructors, you would have seen I had already posted this exact fact sir.

Let me ask you a question-

See, now this is a positive thing, Yes, ask me a question. Then, you can criticize "my answer" instead of creating a false narrative and criticizing people or a department that you know absolutely nothing about.

Does this make you feel better? cuz it sure does me.

Now to "politely" answer this question of yours as "a gentleman."

If you had your choice -do you want this officer to back you up on officer down/shots fired call with that gun using the extended mags in question or two std capacity OEM ones?

Two standard capacity OEM ones. did I say anything that would have you assume different?

 

[Shaving like a boss]

Ha! and then I pulled out the Beatles White Album... /sigh

I have that album as well, 2 white vinyl albums in a solid white sleeve. Now I feel old as well.

 

[dojpros]

1. Nothing personal was directed to you or yours or implied to you or yours.

2. As I qual monthly with a 1100 person agency and quarterly with multiple federal agency I have some insight into:

how a law enforcement qual goes... how LE standard operating procedures work and it's dynamics within LE culture when it comes to how LE instructors, rangemasters, range officers train, work, operate, rules, ethics and general, professional courtesy, when it comes to teaching, training, instructing and or treating veteran officers when either a rules violation happens and the procedures that follow, to even attempt to know first, if a rule or procedure has even been violated in the first place.

IIRC we had a go round re the Serpa v ALS. (perhaps that was someone else) I doubt we changed each other's minds. I would note more agencies have continued to ban their use. I am unaware of any agencies banning the ALS.

3. I can tell you that based on my training and experience, particularly with my local client agency (which has a full time training staff and armorer), if somebody showed up with +4 extensions that malfunctioned so poorly that the shooter was dq'ed and had to get a reshoot with loaned OEM mags and the SGT in charge of the range found out that that officer went back on the street with those extensions, there would be professional consequences for those who ran that range. Perhaps your shop is different.

4. We are both Gentlemen. Gentlemen can disagree. Expressing a contrary opinion to you when I clearly framed my comments as my opinion, based on my training/experience creates no false narrative. 9 of the greatest legal minds in the USA disagree 5-4 all the time.

5. Bottom line, we agree those extensions suck. Even if aftermarket extensions are an acceptable custom/practice/policy at your agency, those particular ones suck. We agree that one should not be betting their life on those extensions. By "extension" (pardon the pun) we agree that we do not want to bet our lives on those extensions if said user was our back up on a hot call. At my home LEO range which has an open qual every fri, ammo provided, serving 1100+ officers, there is NFW he leaves the range with those mags on his duty belt if they had pooped the bed like they did. Range/Training Officer (who undoubtedly has more than 3 yrs on) tells 3 yr officer to get mags squared away with OEM, if there is any pushback, Rangemaster/SGT tells 3 yr officer to ges his mags swapped/put back to OEM status. Period. End of Subject. Full Stop. Woe to the 3 yr officer who does not comply.

My opinions/critique does not mean I think you are a bad person, the officer in question is a bad person, the TO/RO/RM are bad people. Nothing personal at all.

Us going back and forth on this issue is a lot like Biben v Trump- supporters of each are exceedingly unlikely to change their position at this point.

I too have a thick skin. If I post something that you disagree with, you do you. I assure you that I will be just fine.

Be safe, warm and well. Be especially safe these next few weeks.

 

[OkieStubble]

1. Nothing personal was directed to you or yours or implied to you or yours.

Then why post this David? Why even try to respond to something, I Didn't say, with this? Why make up something from thin air, and attempt to interject it into a conversation?

Finally, if that training officer did not configure those +4s back to std and have him qualify with those mags, he did that officer a grave disservice because it is only a matter of time before the poop the bed again.

There wasn't anything in my OP that would have made you think, the range officers didn't or wouldn't handle this officer as satisfactorily, as a well trained civilian federal prosecutor thinks they should have? Quite the pedestal you are attempting to build yourself at my expense, no?

As far as the rest of your response sir, I have no problems with you. Even when we disagree.

But I would like to suggest sir, if your number one point up above is truthful, DO NOT create false negative narratives with my posts and then attempt to be critical or judgemental about "what you created" and not actually what was said in my post, understood?

Because that is exactly what happened sir. If you can comply with that as a gentleman, then all is well and we can carry on.

Thank you in advance, for your professional consideration in this matter.

 

[martym]

Two different views but pretty much coming to the same end point.
I have worked at a small department and for a federal agency.
From my point of view from having been a primary firearms instructor and firearms instructor for many years and from being an officer for more than 33 years and a supervisor for many years I see things a bit differently.
I look at policy. Is what was being used prohibited? Hmmm!!
If not then I cannot ban that officer from using that equipment.
I can bring it to his/her attention and also inform upper management but I do not have the authority to ban said equipment.
As an officer qualifying what was said away from me is none of my business.
The officer using equipment that doesn’t work is. Peer pressure works wonders for patrol officers. And it won’t be long before all the guys he works with on the street explain things to him in a very gentle patrol officer sort of way. It works wonders. And that’s all I gotta say about that.
And as was said, LEO’s and other 1st responders stay safe out there. We are all we have. Be a roll by. Be back up. Just be there.
God Speed
marty

 

[OkieStubble]

Two different views but pretty much coming to the same end point.
I have worked at a small department and for a federal agency.
From my point of view from having been a primary firearms instructor and firearms instructor for many years and from being an officer for more than 33 years and a supervisor for many years I see things a bit differently.
I look at policy. Is what was being used prohibited? Hmmm!!
If not then I cannot ban that officer from using that equipment.
I can bring it to his/her attention and also inform upper management but I do not have the authority to ban said equipment.
As an officer qualifying what was said away from me is none of my business.
The officer using equipment that doesn’t work is. Peer pressure works wonders for patrol officers. And it won’t be long before all the guys he works with on the street explain things to him in a very gentle patrol officer sort of way. It works wonders. And that’s all I gotta say about that.
And as was said, LEO’s and other 1st responders stay safe out there. We are all we have. Be a roll by. Be back up. Just be there.
God Speed
marty

Thanks Marty. From the little bit I could glean from his posts, where most of it, is him listing all the notches in his belt and how much he thinks of himself. He is saying, HE THINKS, the range officers, should have made him, strip the extensions off of his magazines and HE THINKS then shoot the course again with his own magazines. Why? Because it's what HE THINKS.

But maybe, what HE doesn't realize is, it wasn't a training day. It was an assigned re-qualification day with veteran officers with many more waiting in line to get on the line for their next up in qualifying. It isn't the job or responsibility for those range officers to strip him down in front of a hundred other officers. It's their job to get us qualified for the year, that's it.

There are 17,985 police departments in the U.S. Of which, @dojpros doesn't belong too. How they go thru their steps from A.B.C. or 1. 2. 3. isn't and doesn't have to be the same or match anyone else's SOP's or @dojpros self reflection of his own greatness or experiences with his personal training. That's just a fact.

What needs to be realized here is, he and I are not having a disagreement about something. He made up and created a false negative narrative and then attempted to criticize people in my department on the notion of "IF" it's something they did. That is absolutely wrong for him to attempt that and unprofessional of him, considering his position, if he wants to keep defending it.

If he is who he says he is, then he perfectly understands this. We don't have to do every single thing exactly the way HE THINKS we should. And that is what he is projecting here.

The intention for my thread wasn't meant for him to make stuff up and then use it to make the men in my department look less professional then what? Himself?

 

[xiletero]

I was at the LE Range yesterday getting my yearly qualifications out of the way. While there, I found something interesting to note. I had a 12:30 range time, along with 19 other officers. Of the 20 officers on the line qualifying, only two of the officers had Sig Sauer P320X service pistols. Both officers, had a couple of failure to feed malfunctions while on the line.

Of the 18 officers on the line using Glocks, mostly G22's except for my G23, 1 officer had constant malfunctions with failure to feed and eject. This officer had Taran Tactical base plate extensions on all 3 of his magazines. He held up the line so much constantly clearing his malfunctions, the range instructor DQ'd him and he had to run the course again after we finished.

However, he ran the next course of fire, with a few of the OEM G22 magazine's a couple of the other officers loaned him and he ran the course free & clear with no problems.

Very interesting, 2/2 320's had failures. Were those 40sw or 9mm?
Pardon my ignorance, for these qualifications do you use new branded ammo?
Thanks again for the interesting post.

 

[OkieStubble]

Very interesting, 2/2 320's had failures. Were those 40sw or 9mm?
Pardon my ignorance, for these qualifications do you use new branded ammo?
Thanks again for the interesting post.

They were both 9mm. They both were P320X's to be exact. what's even more peculiar, is they both only had it happen once and they both, were at the 25 yd barricade when they both happened. I actually just purchased my own Sig P320X Full a few months back. I just have been waiting for ammo sales to come back, before I take it for it's first spin.

Patrol officers use the duty ammo they have carried for the entire year to qualify with. Then they are issued fresh duty ammo.