Law School Advice

[Kyle Hyde]

Hey there B&Bers,

I was wondering if there were any lawyers or soon-to-be lawyers around here. I graduated from college a little more than a year ago, and as of yet have yet to find a steady job.

I had always wanted to be a lawyer, but thought it wasn't possible given my GPA (2.899). However, I took the LSATs in February and received a fairly good score (163). I might be able to raise that if I prepared again.

So, my question is whether I have a change of admission at a decent enough school given those numbers, and if anyone has advice about the application process and surviving law school. And any jobs or internships I should be seeking out until I can apply.

Just thought, I'd check here as everyone seems to be extremely helpful around these parts.

Note: I would love to work in the public defenders office after graduation, if that helps any.

 

[toucanlamp]

I gave is a shot going to law school, my GPA was 3.4, got a 159 on the LSAT and was rejected by all four places I applied to. In retrospect I'm glad I think because I know now I'm not cut out for the absolute grind that life as a lawyer is, but I was really disappointed then. It's possible if I was willing to apply everywhere and just keep on trying I'd get into a bottom of the rung law school with those stats, but I started working shortly thereafter and things went ok so I gave up on it.

It's just so competitive. 163 is a very good score, I think 90th percentile, but a 2.89 GPA is pretty low for law school. They released stats on apps and admissions at a few that I applied to on their website and nobody was admitted with a GPA under 3.25 except for a couple who scored like 168+ on their LSAT.

A buddy got in and went and he said that he's certain that for the first year at least it was like reading the equivalent of a 250 page novel every single night of the week. But he really enjoyed it later on when they got into discussions about theory and the research and writing they did. Now he works for some firm in real estate law and is making around $120k per year, but I also know that if I call his house at any daylight hour (and lots of nighttime ones too!) other than on Sunday, he's gone, he says he average 13 hours a day Monday to Friday and Saturday is usually all spent out meeting with clients for the firm.

My mom's childhood friend lives in Bermuda working for some big firm, and I bet she makes $500k per year. But she is beyond a workoholic, wakes up at like 3 am every mornin to go to the office for 4:30 and works all day long. She told me that she's probably averaged 3 hours of sleep a night over the last ten years. So it's success but I bet she doesn't live past 60.

I guess you just have to be absolutely and utterly dedicated to it. And also you have to be one of the best at it, the people who graduate at the bottom of law school classes often have a very, very tough time, because their isn't a huge market for mediocre lawyers. They end up being the prosecutor in traffic court and making $60-70k per year. If you want to be a lawyer, given how much time, effort and money it costs to get there, I think you better go all the way, and want it, get on top of the class.

So I mean 163 is quite good, but with that GPA, unless you put together some incredible personal profile of activities and such, it will probably be very tough. If you can raise your LSAT to the high 160's, you can surely get into some law school despite the grades.

Good luck though whatever you decide

 

[adp113]

I worked for the court system for 3 years. I can tell you this. Working for a private firm, you will only be concerned with billable hours and making partner. Every aspect of your life will crumble, including your health, sinking you deeper into billable hours and being a partner. If you are working for the PD's office you will get paid squat, just enough for you to pay school loans and not do much else - you will be happy if you can afford an apartment in the same neighborhood has the people you are representing. You will run into the same people over and over who always say "It wasn't me, it was some guy who looked like me". Sadly, the court system is anything but exciting. I learned this after working in it. If you don't have a job now, try to intern at a law firm as wells as the PD's office. You will get a feel for what goes on and what does not go on. I saw too many people who became lawyers for the money only to watch their wives leave and take the kids who really don't want to see them any more, fatten up under loads of stress, drink themselves to happiness with other lawyers every night, or struggle to make ends meet while working for social service agencies or PD's.

If you plan to do this to right wrongs and money is not an issue, then follow your heart. Just know that you will have to defend those who are guilty, they know it and you'll know it. Most importantly you will have to go to bed at night and either fall asleep knowing you made something better, or toss and turn knowing you made something worse.

Do the internship before law school.

One last thing. Enjoy youth. One day you will have a steady job, mortgage, family and all that other stuff that stops you from doing some the really fun things in life. Travel now, not later. Regret doing, don't regret not doing. See the world now, while you can still see it and learn it. The is always time for a career, don't let a profession or job define you. Let your experiences, knowledge, and adventures define you.

 

[MasterP]

Hey man, I was going to be a lawyer and somethings happened and now I am a doctor. But if I didn't do medicine, I would have done law for sure. While your gpa is low, apply to as many schools as you can. You probably wont get into the top schools, but I am sure you can get into atleast 1 good school. Once you get your law degree, go and work as a prosecutor or with the IRS a year or two to gain experience, then go solo. There is no rule that says all lawyers have to go work in a firm to make partner.
I was in a car accident once and had to get an attorney. He was a former prosecutor, but now specializes in only car accidents. He was solo, worked in a small office with 4 employees. But he had to be making atleast 500k plus. He drove a Mercedes S class, lived in 500k home, and worked 9-5. He didn't seem stressed at all, while I was there, he called his son to make plans to go to a baseball game. So don't let other horror stories prevent you from achieving what you want.

Also, if you can't handle the traditional "full load" there are several schools that have part time or evening classes. There are deaf people, blind people, paralyzed people that have got their law degress and passed the bar, so why can't you? It will be rough, but I think you should be able to do it.

 

[The Nid Hog]

Another possibility is to find a reputable MA program at a good school and try to rebuild your GPA. The plus side of this is that you can demonstrate that you can hit the fast pitches. The down side is that, unless you are financially independent, you're going to rack up some serious debt. Is it worth it? Tough call--you have to answer that one yourself. If you're serious about law school, directly contact the schools that you're interested in and ask what they think about what you've got and what they want. My guess is that most of them will give you a straight answer. With this economy, applications are up and they can afford to respond to your questions without sugarcoating their answers.

 

[stobes21]

I graduated from law school this past May and just sat for the bar exam. Don't get too worried about the posters above. Law is an incredibly diverse profession. Most lawyers do work fairly long hours, but many very successful ones work banker's hours. It just depends on where you work, what field of law you go into, how good you are at the various aspects of practicing law, and how you value your time at work and away from it.

Anyway, I don't really know what level of school you can get into with your GPA/LSAT combo, but I'm sure you can go somewhere. Don't get too obsessed with the rankings. Top 20 schools are great and do certainly open some doors, but most lawyers out there didn't go to a top 20 school and most didn't finish at the top of their class. A third or fourth tier school gives you the same degree as a tier 1 or 2 school. And outside of big law most employers are more interested in what you did in law school and what sort of experience you have than how some magazine ranks the school you went to.

Be warned -- with the job market what it is a lot more people are applying to law school, so the competition has increased. It might be good to work a few years and then go. That sort of experience is valued by admissions directors and by employers post-graduation, and it will give you a leg up on most the kids going straight from undergrad. And as mentioned by The Nid Hog, getting a new set of grades from a different grad program or getting another degree might be a good way to help your admissions prospects.

As for jobs/internships to look for -- I'd suggest looking in the area or areas you want to practice. Intern with the PD's office, volunteer with local legal assistance clinics, clerk at a firm, etc. See what the environment is like, whether you see yourself doing what the lawyers do, etc. But be aware that a whole lot of people go into law school expecting to do one thing and come out doing something completely different. So you're interested in the P.D.'s office now, but you might just find real estate law is what speaks to you, or you may find that you have the opportunity and desire to cash in on big law.

Above all else though ask yourself why you want to go to law school. If you truly want to be a lawyer then by all means go. But if you just aren't sure what you want to do, can't find another job, or everyone in your family is a lawyer so you figure you should be one too then stay the hell away. Law school is an incredibly expensive, difficult, and time consuming experience. Don't waste all that if you aren't sure you actually want the end degree.

 

[Kyle Hyde]

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Vvalters]

This is not precise but, if you plug in your GPA and your LSAT score into this website it will give you your probability of being accepted.

http://officialguide.lsac.org/UGPASearch/Search3.aspx?SidString=

Again, this is not an exact science. Other factors often play a role in your acceptance besides just GPA and LSAT score. But, this calculator can at least tell you how close you might be to your dream school.

Good Luck!

 

[Cuttingboard]

I suggest graduate school...I wanted to go to law school to become a sports agent/contract law and was accepted at several top 50 law schools. After I found out how many hours a day they work to move up the food chain, I decided it wasn't for me and went to graduate school instead. I work 8-5 and have a life away from work...what's life if your not enjoying it!! Lots of hungry lawyers out there if you're not in the top tier of your law school class.

 

[Brodirt]

Being a lawyer is a crappy job, but then again so are many others.

I always try to dissuade people from going to law school, but I loved it. The education that is. It is a spectacular intellectual and disciplinary challenge.

The practice of law, certainly when working for someone else, however, is a completely different story.

Too many attorneys that I deal with are sociopaths. Not the kind of person likely to be dangerous to a large segment of society, but rather, the kind of person that is so self-centered that it is beyond narcissism. The kind of person that only sees things in such a way as it relates to them. The things that these people do could fill volumes...written by Swift!

I work for myself and it is more rewarding than when I worked in firms. It is still terribly frustrating though as the pressure to succumb to the "whatever it takes" mentality is spectacular. I know I will never make riches from my practice, I am resigned to that in my mid-40s, but so far I have been able to stay one of the few honest lawyers you might find and make enough money, without working insane hours (see the exercise post for more on that!), to pay the bills and eke out an ok existence in NY.

 

[Obsessed]

The prior posts pretty much cover what I was going to say. Think long and hard about whether this is really something you want.

 

[chickpea]

Being a lawyer is a crappy job, but then again so are many others.

I always try to dissuade people from going to law school, but I loved it. The education that is. It is a spectacular intellectual and disciplinary challenge.

The practice of law, certainly when working for someone else, however, is a completely different story.

Too many attorneys that I deal with are sociopaths. Not the kind of person likely to be dangerous to a large segment of society, but rather, the kind of person that is so self-centered that it is beyond narcissism. The kind of person that only sees things in such a way as it relates to them. The things that these people do could fill volumes...written by Swift!

I work for myself and it is more rewarding than when I worked in firms. It is still terribly frustrating though as the pressure to succumb to the "whatever it takes" mentality is spectacular. I know I will never make riches from my practice, I am resigned to that in my mid-40s, but so far I have been able to stay one of the few honest lawyers you might find and make enough money, without working insane hours (see the exercise post for more on that!), to pay the bills and eke out an ok existence in NY.

I have been an attorney for only about 5 years, but that encapsulates most of what is rotten in the profession.
I work 8:30 - 6:00 (and maybe 2 weekends per year). I went to a top, top law school, graduated with a 2.8 (was on Moot Court and an Editor of a Law Journal) and could not find work at a large firm (luckily). Invariably, those of my friends who work at large firms despise their workplaces, hate their incredibly narcissistic bosses, are fat, exhausted and depressed because of the slave hours they work (8am-9:30pm is a NORMAL day for them, although they often work later), saturday is a work day. I am now a partner at an extremely small (3 attorney) boutique firm in DC, and am very happy with my practice, my income (not anything near what an associate would earn in the fifth year at a mega-firm, but I have a stable, happy marriage and my weekends off) and I work with genuinely interesting and fun people who I respect and are not twisted troglodytes.

On the LSAT, be careful, my first time taking it (without any study or preparation whatsoever) I got a 165, then I took the Kaplan, thinking my score could only go up, I got a 158.

Be careful about heeding the siren song of BigLaw salaries. They are a faustian bargain.

 

[flabajaba2213]

Don't do it!

I did my first year of law school, decided that being a lawyer wasn't for me. Now I get to work at paying back $80K in student loans.

I'd echo the suggestion that others have given and try grad school. You could even do it online or part time while working.


EDIT: Yeah, as for the big salaries, you are hearing about the kids coming out of the ivy leagues where daddy or mommy is already a partner at a firm, and the job is given to them. What you don't hear about are the regular people who make between $28k - $35k a year working for the state ADA, or at small firms.

 

[swags]

Law school is an incredibly expensive, difficult, and time consuming experience. Don't waste all that if you aren't sure you actually want the end degree.

This.

I am just about to start my second year at the University of Maryland School of Law. I worked as a software developer for five years before coming here and realized I hated that career about three years in. My hate for my old career plus the knowledge that law is the only field I had any interest in further education in is what allowed to me survive my first year. I can't speak for the second and third years yet, but the first year of law school is a demaning experience. It will drain you in every sense - physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, socially, etc. None the less, it's also a lot of fun at times.

Your LSAT score shows you are very intelligent, but your GPA may cause some admissions boards to question your work ethic. I think that will be your biggest challenge if you decide to apply without gaining some substantial additional experience first. Substantial is the key there though. In my experience other students with only one or two years helping out in a law office only benefit marginally and not in ways that impact law school performance. I'm guessing at least some admissions folks feel the same way. I may also just be a bitter jerk, so take what I say with a grain of salt. A master's degree may or may not help you out, but as far as I know master's GPAs don't matter much because a C is usually failing and As are very common.

In my opinion, if you can afford it, identify a range of schools in the region(s) you may want to practice and just apply. Obtain the best recommendations you can and make sure your personal statements, reumes, etc are well thought out, tightly written pieces. Don't make excuses, but sell yourself and your abilities that may not show up in your transcripts. Apply to as many schools as you can manage (I applied to 10 and maybe should have applied to more). Don't skimp because of application fees - they're molehills next to the mountains of cash (or promissory notes) you'll be handing over to attend. If the acceptances don't pan out well for you then you'll know that you need to improve you application image.

For what it's worth, my highest LSAT score was 163 and I was offered admission into two top 50 schools and wait listed at a few others. My undergrad GPA was higher but I also had a significantly lower first LSAT score because I was too stubborn to cancel a score when I took the LSAT just as a nasty illness was setting in. I was on the front end of the current extremely competitive admissions, though they're probably going to be even tougher now.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[chickpea]

EDIT: Yeah, as for the big salaries, you are hearing about the kids coming out of the ivy leagues where daddy or mommy is already a partner at a firm, and the job is given to them. What you don't hear about are the regular people who make between $28k - $35k a year working for the state ADA, or at small firms.

BZZZZ. Wrong answer.

The big salaries are not given to Little Jonny Named Partner. Although they have a better than 50% shot of getting in the firm.

The people who make the big salaries at the BigLaw places are (by and large, although not exclusively) the folks who literally sacrificed their health, sanity, and social skills to earn the extra 1/2 point on their exams which pushed them from a A- to an A (at a top 20 law school) and yes, less than a standard deviation will separate an A from a B, the scores are that tight. They then left school after studying 18 hour days for 3 years to a large law firm to do Massive Commercial Litigation or Massive Commercial Transactions, will get paid ~165K a year starting, will work nearly non-stop for the next 7-10 years trampling eachother in probably one of the most dysfunctional, machiavellian, and ludicrous nerd competitions ever invented. The "winner", i.e., the 1 in 10 associates (from the beginning first year associate class) that actually makes (non-equity) Partner is guaranteed to be the absolutely most vicious sociopath of the litter. The single least well-adjusted socially of all and the least connected with reality. This person will then be in charge of selecting his new underlings who he (and don't fool yourself, it is a 9.5 in 10 chance (still) that it's a he) share a natural affinity with, e.g., twitching psychopaths and people so maladroit that they make Rain Man seem extroverted by comparison.

Just an idea for you of how the system is rigged. To get those big salaries you either need to either be:
1) the winner of the nerd competition (your chances are not good no matter who you are)
2) a genuinely good attorney who creates his own practice under his own steam, with his very own clients (this is where the REAL money is),
3) a truly extraordinary attorney who is a world leader in his field, like the Steven Hawkings of law, a person who would be supremely successful no matter what he chose to do or no matter where he did it, or
4) in a different profession.

Let the above inform your cost benefit analysis of all those loans. Count on a starting salary of ~ $50K not 3X that. The VAST majority of attorneys will begin making the smaller figure.

There is an old joke that may be somewhat instructive:
In Law School:

A students become professors
B students become judges
C students become rich

Generally speaking those that "fail" at the law school game are generally too interested in the world to fall into the paper chase and invariably become excellent at what they really enjoy doing, and that my friend, is the secret to real wealth.

 

[Brodirt]

BZZZZ. Wrong answer.

The big salaries are not given to Little Jonny Named Partner. Although they have a better than 50% shot of getting in the firm.

The people who make the big salaries at the BigLaw places are (by and large, although not exclusively) the folks who literally sacrificed their health, sanity, and social skills to earn the extra 1/2 point on their exams which pushed them from a A- to an A (at a top 20 law school) and yes, less than a standard deviation will separate an A from a B, the scores are that tight. They then left school after studying 18 hour days for 3 years to a large law firm to do Massive Commercial Litigation or Massive Commercial Transactions, will get paid ~165K a year starting, will work nearly non-stop for the next 7-10 years trampling eachother in probably one of the most dysfunctional, machiavellian, and ludicrous nerd competitions ever invented. The "winner", i.e., the 1 in 10 associates (from the beginning first year associate class) that actually makes (non-equity) Partner is guaranteed to be the absolutely most vicious sociopath of the litter. The single least well-adjusted socially of all and the least connected with reality. This person will then be in charge of selecting his new underlings who he (and don't fool yourself, it is a 9.5 in 10 chance (still) that it's a he) share a natural affinity with, e.g., twitching psychopaths and people so maladroit that they make Rain Man seem extroverted by comparison.

Just an idea for you of how the system is rigged. To get those big salaries you either need to either be:
1) the winner of the nerd competition (your chances are not good no matter who you are)
2) a genuinely good attorney who creates his own practice under his own steam, with his very own clients (this is where the REAL money is),
3) a truly extraordinary attorney who is a world leader in his field, like the Steven Hawkings of law, a person who would be supremely successful no matter what he chose to do or no matter where he did it, or
4) in a different profession.

Let the above inform your cost benefit analysis of all those loans. Count on a starting salary of ~ $50K not 3X that. The VAST majority of attorneys will begin making the smaller figure.

There is an old joke that may be somewhat instructive:
In Law School:

A students become professors
B students become judges
C students become rich

Generally speaking those that "fail" at the law school game are generally too interested in the world to fall into the paper chase and invariably become excellent at what they really enjoy doing, and that my friend, is the secret to real wealth.

While I am not in complete disagreement with the above, Chickpea, I have disclosed my connection with law school and the legal practice...where did you become so jaded?

 

[Obsessed]

Before we come to blows about who gets to earn big law firm salaries and how, remeber that the OP stated he wants to work in the public defender's office.

 

[chickpea]

While I am not in complete disagreement with the above, Chickpea, I have disclosed my connection with law school and the legal practice...where did you become so jaded?

I also disclosed my affiliation with law school. I am a happily practicing attorney in DC in a boutique firm. I made that revelation in my first post in this topic. I went to a top 25 school. So, I have no "ax to grind" that isn't the result of a full and honest experience with the practice of law and the study of law. I neither regret my time in law school, nor do I look fondly back on that time either. I have a parent who is also a lawyer. So, I neither entered the profession a dew-eyed innocent, nor a malcontent.

I just feel that my estimation of what BigLaw really is, is far different than the general lay impression. I seek to correct this impression (that we are all super rich "elitists" that work in huge firms in tall buildings and have 3 hour 3 martini lunches with big wigs).

We are not all pampered dilettantes ensconced in buttery leather furniture, smoking cigars and slapping secretary's asses. In fact, quite the opposite is true, we are probably one of the few examples of the problems with the meritocracy: eventually such a system produces mutants and young attorneys are literally indentured servants to their partner masters at these big firms.

 

[chickpea]

Before we come to blows about who gets to earn big law firm salaries and how, remeber that the OP stated he wants to work in the public defender's office.

Fair enough. I am astounded anyone is willing to be a public defender anymore. I have no idea how one can afford to be after law school (the debt-foregiveness programs notwithstanding).

 

[Brodirt]

I also disclosed my affiliation with law school. I am a happily practicing attorney in DC in a boutique firm. I made that revelation in my first post in this topic. I went to a top 25 school. So, I have no "ax to grind" that isn't the result of a full and honest experience with the practice of law and the study of law. I neither regret my time in law school, nor do I look fondly back on that time either. I have a parent who is also a lawyer. So, I neither entered the profession a dew-eyed innocent, nor a malcontent.

I just feel that my estimation of what BigLaw really is, is far different than the general lay impression. I seek to correct this impression (that we are all super rich "elitists" that work in huge firms in tall buildings and have 3 hour 3 martini lunches with big wigs).

We are not all pampered dilettantes ensconced in buttery leather furniture, smoking cigars and slapping secretary's asses. In fact, quite the opposite is true, we are probably one of the few examples of the problems with the meritocracy: eventually such a system produces mutants and young attorneys are literally indentured servants to their partner masters at these big firms.

I sensed that from your post, it was too poignant to have been unearned. You know, I once had someone tell me that he thinks "you lawyers sit in your brocade leather chairs, in your mahogony panelled offices, with your $500 shoe clad feet propped up on your mahogony desk, drinking 20 year old scotch and lighting cuban cigars with $20 bills!"

Then just a few weeks ago I had a pro-se civil litigant, that I have the misfortune of having to deal with, get in my face in the hall of the Court house screaming at me that "I hate black people, that I'm a racist Jew scumbag and that I and my whole mother f'in family should all burn in hell." This was in response to a judicial conference about subject matter jurisdiction. Go figure!

My stories only get worse from there by the way.

To think...after more than 15 years I'm still doing it.

Oh, and if you want it real bad, my wife spent 10 years in one of the biggest medical malpractice defense firms in NYC. This firm is the stereotypical white shoe, old boys club that you described above...they took my 5' 105lb Jewish American princess and ground her into a bloody pulp with their sociopathic, sexist, racist mysogonism.