I've been doing some thinking and...

[Ru4scuba?]

Some guys like rubbing green jelly on their bodies and running around in the street naked..."We're going streaking!!!"

But...as always...YMMV

 

[funkyb]

Some guys like rubbing green jelly on their bodies and running around in the street naked..."We're going streaking!!!"

But...as always...YMMV

 

[Ferengi]

I admit that I have splurged on buying shavers, not so much on blades, soaps or aftershaves, most of which I bought at the local Walgreens. And, I use the VDH kit on a daily basis nearly. That being said, I'm off to play the Grand Pianoooo!

 

[mrscottishman]

Some of what has been said, though, has not necessarily been in good fun, or at least has been written so that it reads as serious. I can see Alfredo's point on that.

I am, what is the word? Let me think, uh, slow, that is it. So if it isn't in fun I just choose not to read it that way.

I am just too dumb to take offense.

mrscottishman

 

[Alfredo Becerra]

For those wondering about the price of Proraso in an italian grocery store, it's about 1 or 2 euros per tub, sometimes 3. That's, at the most, 4.50 dollars US.

 

[Alfredo Becerra]

Alfredo, you've clearly stated a few things in your original post that I've been thinking about a bit lately myself. Thanks for saying it better than I could. As to your question

I wish I had an answer for you, because I'm tired of the hatred spewed out towards certain products. Maybe it's just cabin fever at the end of a long winter, I don't know.

OK, so I'm not alone, that's all I wanted to know.

Someone mentioned that this has something to do with resentment towards those with a 5000 budget. Well, I don't have any resentment towards the lucky guys who can spend 5k a month on shaving paraphernalia, REALLY, I don't.

I work hard for my money and, whether I have 80 dollars or 5000 to spend on shaving things I just simply don't see the value or at least a decent reason why I should pay 15 bucks on glycerin puck

If you want to spend 5k on a paper weight, good for you!

 

[BBrad]

This thread has been an interesting sociological experience. <snip>

I think that one of the great things about a wetshaving interest is that just about anyone can participate at some level. The cost barriers to entry will be lower than just about any other "manly" pursuit. <snip>

As Chickpea states, this has been an interesting thread!! It is typical of a spirited B&B exchange without insult or injury!!

I honestly think that we are a group of people with a lot of exposure and experience. I think we stand out in that category. Not long ago I would have given Williams a fair review because I had never really tried anything else. I had tried colgate that was even harder to lather IMHO and someone gave me a puck of some no name once and with Williams that was it. But that was before I joined this group and marched myself to Walmart and picked up this VDH soap just for fun. I didn't have anything invested in Williams so for me there is no turning back. Even my skin looks better and my wife doesn't dread me "shaving with that cup."

But if you like it, by all means buy it and enjoy it!

I have this belt buckle I got in 1975 someone can poke fun at and I will laugh with them or my leather jacket I went to court to keep, yep, I had to go to the judge to keep my jacket in 1992. You can poke fun of me over that and I will fake hurt and then laugh.

It is all in fun, but some people didn't get the memo,
best,
mrscottishman

Well stated, Scottie!! But, it does beg the question . . . what's this about the jacket and the judge??? (I'd love to hear the story! )

I have the opposite opinion. When I came to B&B looking for recommendations, I found that inexpensive items, found locally, such as Van Der Hagen, Real Shaving Co, and even Williams, were regarded highly by many members. These products have many positive reviews in the Reviews section, and are recommended here regularly.

There's even a whole contingent of members who like good ol' Van Der Hagen soap so much, they melt their standard VDH with a healthy dose of Old Spice, and espouse the virtues of their newly created "Van Der Spice" shaving soap...

In regard to razors, my experience is that most B&B members will recommend a $10 Gillette Tech over other expensive razors, especially for those who are starting out. That said, of course those who consider shaving a "luxury hobby" are going to invest $100's of dollars into their razor collections, but I've never seen these people talk down to others who choose simpler tools.

I also think that people have a good sense of humor about their over-spending on shaving items, and are quick to realize that what may have begun as a way to save on cartridge blades has quickly turned into an expensive hobby. Most comments that "traditional DE wetshaving is a great way to save money!" are tempered by a warning, along the lines of "IF you can control your RAD, SAD, ASAD, etc!"

Other than razors and blades, all of the shaving products I currently own have been purchased locally or are made in the USA. This includes VDH (Walmart), Real Shaving Co (Walgreens), CO Bigelow (Bath & Body Works), Organic Grooming (Whole Foods), and Hydrolast (Enchante of Austin TX). I plan on asking for some more expensive items (e.g. TOBS Avacado) for my birthday, but I don't expect to get drastically different shaves from more expensive products, rather I consider them a luxury. I'm guessing most other members feel the same way.

As I was reading through this post, I was formulating an intelligent post to add positively to the discussion. Instead, I stumbled on SpeedyB's post above . . . and couldn't say it better myself!! Well stated, Sir!!

Myself, I've noticed more "product snobbery" regarding blades than anything else. While there are many blades available via internet order, many of us stick to what is easily available locally . . . I for one don't want to chance buying a batch of 100 blades and wind up with Friday afternoon's production for the next two years (or vertical Derbys!) Very few people proudly proclaim that they use WM Personnas or Dollar General DEs . . . but I will . . .

 

[T_M]

Sir, I must say that I cannot disagree more with your post, and more importantly the entire attitude that underlies it. This idea that the value of some product or service is objective and that you can make a better determination of its selling price (re: C'mon!!! 13 bucks for a bar of soap!!!??? It is NOT that special). I hear echos of "a banker that makes $10 million a year" or "an oil company that makes $34 billion in profits" immediately followed by "no one should be allowed to make that much money. So what's really the problem then? Because, whenever someone says it's not about the money (re: I am not trying to argue against expensive products...), well, it's about the money.

Secondly, I hate to break this to you, but some stuff is demonstrably better than other stuff - sorry, that's the way it is. True, the reviews on this site are largely subjective (very few tribiologists comparing friction coefficients of Williams to Penhaligons). But you know what, several thousand people using products day in and day out will end up with a pretty repeatable metric of relative quality. Count on it - we're not that easy to fool.

Third, are Williams and VDH good enough to shave with? Yep, they are. And I've seen hundreds of posts on here saying that. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone recommend Wal Mart and a puck of VDH to a newbie who was afraid that wet shaving was an expensive endeavor.

But, are TOBS and L'Occitane and Mama Bear and Trumper better than VDH? Yes they are, and I can prove it - because in a free market, people pay more for them than they do for VDH. Case closed. If VDH were better, it would cost more. That's not snobbery, that's economics.

Is Penhaligons fifteen times better than VDH because it costs fifteen times more? Of course not, because frequently cost/performance comparisons are a curve, not a line. VDH is a fine product, but to do substantially better, you've got to spend a lot more money to do it. Look at the price of a 100mph car vs. a 200mph car - amazing isn't it? Will they both get you where you're going though? Sure. However, one of them is amazing and the other just isn't. Sorry.

And why can't I deride the cost of Gillette's latest cartridge and yet spend a lot of money on shaving creams? What does one have to do with the other? There are two completely separate value judgments going on there. Plus, you asserted that the people on here "complain" about the price of cartridges. For the most part, people here are very successfully avoiding the cost and/or mocking the cost. Ninety percent of this forum is ways to avoid using a cartridge. The remainder of folks like them and pay the price, but they don't "complain" - they have too many alternatives.

So, in closing, why are you so bent out of shape about other people's shaves and what they're spending on them? It's really none of your business how much money they want to devote to this. As someone else mentioned, your entire manifesto comes off as somewhat classist. Let go of the shave den envy and stop trying to drag others into your mediocrity - "You don't NEED to spend 50 dollars on ONE aftershave" - this whole - "if Williams is good enough for me, it's good enough for you!" attitude. Shave your own face, and stop worrying about how I'm shaving mine. I've had enough of the Democrat SUV police, the Republican bedroom police and now I've got some B&B bathroom police?

I will not have it, sir.


--------T_M

 

[Vlad]

Booyah!

 

[funkyb]

For those wondering about the price of Proraso in an italian grocery store, it's about 1 or 2 euros per tub, sometimes 3. That's, at the most, 4.50 dollars US.

I'd pay five bucks to ship almost anything from Italy to here, so sounds $10 sounds reasonable. I'd expect the price to be even lower if it was popular enough to warrant stocking in all levels of brick'n'motar in the states, but it's not, so sounds about par to me.

 

[Haber Dashing]

All I can say is wow. Talk about a melting pot. So many different ideas, and so many feelings tied up into them. Ok, so here is my two cents and they may be worth more or less to you depending on the exchange rate. It is ok to love or hate a product. Its ok to express love or hate for a product. It is not an expression of how somebody feels towards the people who use that product or don't use said product. Soaps, creams, brushes, razors, strops, everything and anything related to shaving is subject to personal preference. It is not meant to offend a member when somebody expresses that hate/love for whatever item they are rating for or against. When somebody starts a club up to pick on a product or praise it, it is done for entertainment purposes only. We have amongst us a competitive and playful spirit. Just like cars, Ford, Mopar, Chevy, Euro, Japanese, whatever, people get together, express their ideas and find things they like and don't like. I have seen a lot of ribbing when I went to automotive school between the Ford Guys and the Chevy Guys. Its clique sometimes ok, but its good natured fun. The pitfall I wouldn't want anyone to fall in here is to think that by having that fun at the expense of poking fun at a product that they are poking fun at you. Regardless of your socioeconomic standings or your budget, find what you like and truly and genuinely enjoy it. At the end of the day that is what everyone here is doing. The great lengths that the individual who wrote that review went to makes me wonder. Why the malice? Perhaps he was a member at one time, who didn't like what he heard, didn't like his own personal circumstances and had a lot going on in his life at that time. Perhaps he was banned from this forum and wanted somewhere to vent out his frustrations upon us. Maybe he ripped one of those "rich snobs" off and got banned. Really, we'll never know. But what we do know, is that there are some seriously thoughtful and generous people here who go out of there way to help people at any and every opportunity. You might be able to see that some of us are a little bit more spirited then others when it comes to their right to self expression, but their character should not be put to the fire for it. I'm sure many people can define this hobby as a [/B]great[/B] contribution to the quality of their life, and the friendships made here can probably last a lifetime. I'd prefer to take away as much good from this place as I can, instead of focusing on fixing life's little trivialities. In summary, YMMV is not something we say to blow off another person's perspective. Its the realization that there are different strokes for different folks. We are all different and have very different opinions about just about everything. But at the end of the day you dictate what's best for you. I probably should have broken this down into multiple paragraphs but I was just going with it. Sorry professors. Have fun, and enjoy.

Respectfully,
Haber Dashing

 

[DougK]

I am, what is the word? Let me think, uh, slow, that is it. So if it isn't in fun I just choose not to read it that way.

I am just too dumb to take offense.

mrscottishman

My point was just that it can be really hard to tell when someone is joking on the internet. I agree with you that one shouldn't automatically assume ill intent, but continual product-bashing gets a bit tiresome after a while, no matter the poster's intent.

 

[mirrorimij]

I really like VDH soap. I really dislike Williams.

Does that make me a snobbish cheapskate?

 

[dlseto]

I agree with lots of what you're saying. I'm a thrifty guy myself but I also like to splurge on good stuff.... whether imported or native. Heck, I shaved with laundry soap recently! lol

+1. You are a brave man.

I paid $5 for a milkshake at Haagen-Dazs many years ago. It was a high price to pay for what it was, but it was also a freakin' good milkshake.

Many members are paying a premium for an experience. Soap is soap. Toilet paper is toilet paper. If you want the scratchy toilet paper for $0.50 a roll, buy it and use it. It goes down the drain. If you want to experience the $2 roll of toilet paper, buy it and use it. It goes down the drain. I do believe that the $2 roll will be a better experience for your ***, and ultimately for yourself. Does that make me a toilet paper snob?

 

[Gruder]

Yeah, we're going to go ahead and call that the end of this thread. "End," get it?

Methinks the site would be best served if all sides of the great Williams debate turned down the rhetoric a bit, joking or not. Quite frankly, it can be pretty distracting to our newer members.