I've been doing some thinking and...

[rummwa]

Like some of the others DE shaving is a hobby for me. The same argument could be had for other hobbies, fishing some people spend thousands and thousands of dollars to fish. But the end result tastes the same if I caught the fish standing on the dock. Hunting meat is meat but some spend thousand on equipment for that hobby. If I haven't tried a product I can't knock it, and I have yet to find one that I hate. Because it is a hobby with me there are allot of products I would like to try but everyone has some kind of budget and because of that there will be many shaving items I will regretfully just long for.

PINAUD!

 

[Pumpkin]

Alfredo, you DO raise some good and interesting points.

I initially made the switch to DE (all of 3 months ago so I'm not that experienced) as an alternative to over-priced cartridges that didn't give me a particularly enjoyable shave...in fact I'd never even thought of the idea that the whole "shaving experience" could BE enjoyable...apart from a once in a blue moon shave by a traditional barber!
However, since discovering B&B I've realised that there's a huge range of equipment and supplies available to try. Some are cheap, some are expensive.
Personally, I'm sticking at the budget end of the market as a result of not having vast amounts of diposable income. I've bought a few vintage razors here and on ebay, fortunately they've been (reasonably good) bargains I realise that is subjective but I haven't missed the rent or told my wife we can't go grocery shopping this month!
I've got a few soaps and a couple of creams. All are available locally (here in the UK) as "cheap" supermarket purchases. Yes, I'd like to try the 3T's but (until I win the lottery, or get a pay-rise) I'll save them for my list for Santa
I was surprised, reading the reviews here, just how highly rated some of the products I use are...especially Palmolive. Before learning as much as I have recently (and I've still got lots to learn), I didn't realise that ANYTHING that cheap could be THAT good! Now I know that it's a result of the Tallow in the formulation. I'd hesitate to call it "snobbery" but I'll admit I'd overlooked it.

Some people here (like any cross-section of society) possibly do come across as soap, brush or cream "snobs". However, I'd say that most are just passionate about their hobby!!

I've posted a pic of my "shave den", I'll admit that's an exaggeration as it's just a corner of the shower-room, but it's MY space and I like it!

 

[MoJoe]

Gents,

Before you read any further I'd like you to keep in mind that this is all harmless debate, so don't blow a gasket or get your panties in a bunch. Also, I will paste a review from another site here, as an example, and while I agree with it in general, I don't agree with ALL of it or defend that point of view 100%.

I have posted a couple of discussion threads about price/performance issues with products and I think I have been misunderstood. I am not trying to argue against expensive products, but some things I've read beyond this site have made me think about a few things.

Let's start with the fact that some people seem to think that because a product is "store bought" or available at your corner grocer then it must suck, why? I'm sure a lot of you reading this love and would defend Proraso to death, have you forgotten that a few years ago it was locally available at Target? I strongly believe that some products are over rated simply because they are fancy imports not available to the general public in your country of origin. Proraso, for instance, is a good product that SOME (NOT ALL) may consider a luxury item, at least here in the U.S. In reality, it is a classic drug store product in Italy, available at any 2 bit supermarket, just like Old Spice, Aqua Velva, Clubman, etc.

Take Tabac as another example. It is in no way bad, good stuff actually. Depending on where and when you buy it (if you live in the U.S.) you will pay anywhere between 8 to 13 dollars for one puck. Folks, it's SOAP! plain and simple. Is it slippery? yes, smells nice? yes, comes in a cool little bowl? yes.

C'mon!!! 13 bucks for a bar of soap!!!??? It is NOT that special, go to Germany and you'll realize it is just another soap for the average joe of the "store bought" variety. By the way, this goes both ways, some Europeans would pay similar prices for, say, a bottle of Aqua Velva. Would you want to pay 16 bucks for a bottle of Aqua Velva? well, if you answered "no" then think again, because that's what you are doing when you buy that bottle of Proraso. It has witch hazel you say? you can get a big bottle of witch hazel at Target for 1 dollar.

Last, but not least, I feel people here bash cheaper products for no reason because they are cheap. You know what? after experimenting and asking for advise and finally figured out how to lather up with Williams. Yeah, I know, I must be crazy, an idiot, have no sense of taste, etc etc etc... You know what? it works, and it lathers well. Is Williams the best soap? Nope! however, I don't think it deserves to have a haters club like some of you have going on simply because:
A) it doesn't work for you
B) you don't know how to use it
C) it's cheap and locally available
D) doesn't have a fancy french, italian or german name.

Some cheap products (like Williams and Van der Hagen) get glowing reviews EVERYWHERE ELSE but here. You can argue that you never know who posts those reviews, but that argument goes both ways, you don't really know who is all here.

The conclussions I draw here would be:

1.- It's SHAVING! it doesn't have to be fancy and expensive to be good and comfortable. You don't NEED to spend 50 dollars on ONE aftershave in order to fight razor burn. If you want to have a nice after shave or cologne for a special occassion that's perfectly understandable, however you don't need to smell like a businessman to go fix factory equipment.

2.- You don't need to make a public museum out of your private bathroom. You have a shave den? great, enjoy it, just don't bash a product like, say, a shaving brush with a plastic handle because the high society will think wrong of you. Some of us don't want a shave den and don't want to spend 400 bucks on an ivory handle so we can leave a good impression at the country club. Some of us have a PRIVATE bathroom and want a utilitarian brush. This is just an example though.

3.- Read the ingredient list and you'll see that your 50 dollar soap isn't much different than the 10 dollar one. (Again, I don't mean Williams here, so don't even try)

4.- Newbies, your face will most definetely NOT fall off if you use a cheaper brush, a cheaper cream/soap, or if you don't use a very specific type of razor. This is what is most confusing for newbies and you guys sometimes get so caught up in the "fancy" stuff that you are absolutely NO help. How come that when a newbie shows up here asking for a CHEAP soap to start with someone always recommends AOS, Gentleman's refinery, etc.?? Oh, and this one is my favorite: A newbie will post something like "hi guys, this will be my first wet shave and thought about getting either williams, VDH, or C. Conk, which of those 3 would you recommend?" and then more than one of you will say "Tabac" or "AOS"

5.- Canned goo does NOT suck if it works for you. Yes, I said it. Soap works great for ME and I like the experience of a traditional shave with a straight (or a DE) and a brush and soap. If those things don't work for you and a can of Edge is what works for you the best then it does not suck. The same applies to a Mach 3, Gillette 27, Schick 69, etc.

6.- Some of you are always talking about how much money you saved when you switched to a DE or a straight. Really? how about the so called AD's that you are always talking about? Are you really saving that much when buying fancy expensive cream every week?

Anyway, here's the review I mentioned earlier, this is someone reviewing VDH soap on Amazon, you can go on Amazon.com and see it for yourself if you don't believe me. Again, I don't really agree with ALL of it but it made me re-think a few things. Read on and come up with your on conclusion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Got this kit for about $8.50 at a Wal-Mart.

And, considering the price, its an awesome value.

Here's the thing about brush shaving, its really nice. It feels good on your face, it results in a nice close shave, and its honestly kinda fun to do it the old school way.

The bad part is, you go on the internet and find out that there's a super elite group of people who will tell you that THIS brand of shave soap is the best soap and you should only use THIS brand of badger brush because the other types don't compare and how you can only use THIS kind of razor because the other kinds will somehow destroy your face and make shaving the kind of unspeakable horror only sick, twisted people dare entertain their minds with.

The point I'm trying to make is this: there is actually a community of shaving snobs. People who've actually invested over a hundred dollars in particular, elite equipment to SCRAPE LITTLE HAIRS OFF THEIR CHINS!!!!

So they see this cheapo set and turn their noses up at it, because its ONLY EIGHT DOLLARS and you can BUY IT AT WAL-MART!!!



I do like wet shaving. Its a good shave. I shave with a double edge safety razor (a Merkur) and this particular kit. And it works out GREAT!!!


So here's my review:

THE BRUSH: Its a boars hair brush, and its fine. It lathers well, it works the way it should, its not rough on my face at all. Yes, it has a plastic handle. WHO CARES?!?!?!?! Its the HANDLE of a friggin BRUSH!!! Do your hands start on fire if they touch plastic? Do you get an allergic reaction if your fingertips handle a brush thats not metal or wood? If you answered "No" to both those questions, then you're fine. Complaining about the material of a shaving brush handle makes you a snob.

THE BOWL: Its a bowl. The soap sits in it, it holds steady when you lather. Its fine. You know why? Because its a FREAKIN' BOWL!!! How do you honestly complain about a bowl? It functions, it doesn't offend the eye, its fine. Don't be a snob.

THE SOAP: Honestly, I've tried so many canned shaving creams its ridiculous. I'm a man with sensitive skin and it doesn't matter how moisturizing the cream was, I still had nicks and cuts and irritated skin. So imagine my surprise to find this soap to be a key part of a very clean, enjoyable shave. I seriously get better results from this soap than I do with my gels and creams. Way to go, VDH shaving soap. Are there better shaving soaps? Probably. Do I care? No, because this one leaves my face moisturized and refreshed, costs 1.80 per bar, and I can actually get it without ordering it over the internet.



BOTTOM LINE: A great wet shave kit, especially for the price. Avoid the snobby opinions and give it an honest shot. If you're not a total tool you'll probably be surprised by how nice this kit is.

There are plenty of things in this world where the level of craftsmanship and attention to detail make a huge difference. Guitars are such a product. Automobiles are another. Shaving brushes and bowls are NOT!!!

Don't be a dumb shaving snob, just go shave your face, then start investing yourself in something thats actually important.

I have the same Walmart kit. I think you over paid by $1. I guess every man is entitled to a little luxury.

 

[petr]

Alfredo, you DO raise some good and interesting points.

Some people here (like any cross-section of society) possibly do come across as soap, brush or cream "snobs". However, I'd say that most are just passionate about their hobby!!

You are one nice person. Really, a gentleman for your tact.

I would say to this fellow ... We say those products suck because they do suck. They were designed to sell and are made cheaply.

If you insist on spending money of stuff that sucks, then go ahead.

 

[crocto]

i'm from new jersey so i contract my shaving out to a private company and then hire them full time while the project is going on so they get 2 paychecks. my shaving budget is in the red by two billion dollars.

oh wait i think i missed your point.

 

[Geordon]

When I started my DE journey, I went contemporary, but cheap. To whit, I bought basically the cheapest shaver I could find, the cheapest brush (boar), and the cheapest SS with a potentially pleasing scent (soap was free with purchase of a mug). All of these came from the same vendor, so I could shave the cost of shipping (lol) as well. I had difficulty generating the lather with the soap and brush that I had bought, and I come to find out that the soap is not generally well liked because of the lathering difficulty. So I bought a well reputed but locally available SC: Proraso/Bigelow. I didn't buy it because it was imported, I bought it because it was locally available. I still had difficulty with lather generation, but had better results. Living in N. Illinois, it's cold in the winter, so I'm saving the Bigelow cream until summer... Don't need the menthol cooling.

A couple of months pass by, and I ordered several "new and better" things: Conk bay rum, Ogalalla BR + cedar and sage stick, MWF (I'm a soap geek, and like tallow and lanolin), TOBS rose (wanted the scent and it was not a whole lot more than the Proraso), and a "better" (badger) brush. I tried the MWF with the boar, had some lather problems that I attributed to the MWF being finicky and my water being hard, but it was better than the first soap that I had. Had better luck with the boar and TOBS, and loved the scent. Then, when it came in, I tried my new badger brush on the MWF and had an amazing result. Leaps and bounds above the experience with the boar. Next shave will be with the TOBS, just to see the difference.

The point I'm trying to make here is that none of what I bought was specifically because it was imported. In fact, I would have preferred if it was all manufactured in the USA, but I like to keep my money local, if possible. But, speaking just about the badger brush that I bought, I was looking for a really high price to value ratio, and I feel that I have gotten one. Paid $60 for the brush out the door, and it performs much better than the boar that I bought (which was imported, from a big name manufacturer). I tend to not skimp on quality, because every time that I "cheap out" on something, I end up paying more in the long run, because I end up paying for the better quality item in the long run anyway. So, I just get the best that I can afford the first time.

It's funny, though. Most of my "den" is imported. Not because it's imported, but because of either the reported quality (I read the reviews a lot) or because it's a scent that specifically appeals to me, or both. I tried Williams. I didn't like what I got out of it, so I went with something of a higher-quality reputation, and liked what I got EVEN WHEN IT WAS SUB-PAR (c.f. the brush thing).

Now, that being said, I sure wish that I could find a modern/contemporary manufacturer of DE razors in the USA, so that I could throw some money their way. Since I don't know of one, I'll buy imported. Again, not because it's imported, but (in this case), because I feel that it's important to support contemporary manufacturers, so that they continue to produce what we (I) want.

Did any of that make sense, or was I just rambling?

 

[Sterling Cooper]

Some good points, but I've never felt any sense of snobbery around here. Passion about a hobby, excitement over finding a way to get better shaves at a lower cost and enthusiasm for great products, yes. Snobbery, no.

One things troubles me, and it's this quote:

If you want to have a nice after shave or cologne for a special occassion that's perfectly understandable, however you don't need to smell like a businessman to go fix factory equipment.

A little classist, don't you think? FWIW, I'm about as white collar as they come, and I've met plenty of businessmen who are slobs. Why should how a man takes care of himself and his personal grooming choices be dictated--or limited--by his occupation?

 

[Go West Young Man]

Firstly, I dispute every single point in the OP. I've yet to see anyone here disparage or insult specific products without a chorus of other people jumping in to defend it. And vice-versa, every product that is praised is also pooh-poohed by someone else. That's the whole point on this board, finding something that works for you.

However, I do agree that it's funny how badly some people sweat imported products that are everyday grocery store items over there. I'm sure someone in Europe is desperate to try VDH because they've heard so much about it and would pay $15 for a puck.

 

[Vlad]

I will say, as someone who has spent quite a bit of time on this site since joining a few months ago...the impression the original poster appears to have of this site is literally the exact opposite of the one I have been presented with. Every experience I have had has spoken to the down to earth and accepting nature of everyone here. Advice from all levels, on all things, at all expense levels.

I totally agree. Just starting, I've read tons of stuff on the site, and I didn't feel pushed towards the boutique stuff at all. VDH gets great reviews, as does Conk soap which is nearly as cheap.

As far as fawning over high-priced goods: more power to them. Most on here are outspoken of the fact that they're not saving money. They spend money buying things they enjoy, no different than anybody else. Let's not get carried away with utilitarianism.

 

[Confilo]

Firstly, I dispute every single point in the OP. I've yet to see anyone here disparage or insult specific products without a chorus of other people jumping in to defend it. And vice-versa, every product that is praised is also pooh-poohed by someone else. That's the whole point on this board, finding something that works for you.

However, I do agree that it's funny how badly some people sweat imported products that are everyday grocery store items over there. I'm sure someone in Europe is desperate to try VDH because they've heard so much about it and would pay $15 for a puck.

i agree, except for the possible exception of tallow shaving soap. Please do not insult the tallow

 

[K.T.]

I'm sure someone in Europe is desperate to try VDH because they've heard so much about it and would pay $15 for a puck.

LOL. A fellow member who I've purchased some razors from tells me he's sending a puck of Williams to a fellow in India who was really itching to try some out. Funny because Godrej is supposed to be one of the best performers dollar-for-dollar and readily available over there and Williams is such a low-brow choice here, and that the tallow in Williams is a no-no in a predominantly Hindu country.

K.T.

 

[Geordon]

LOL. A fellow member who I've purchased some razors from tells me he's sending a puck of Williams to a fellow in India who was really itching to try some out. Funny because Godrej is supposed to be one of the best performers dollar-for-dollar and readily available over there, and that the tallow in Williams is a no-no in a predominantly Hindu country.

K.T.

Ok, that is REALLY funny. I assume that the fellow in question is not a devout Hindu, yes?

 

[mrscottishman]

I was right there with you until you got to Williams!

Is it true that when they invented Williams they were really trying to make a new floor polish? An accidental invention like the cough drop machine that pushed the centers out and we got life savers?

Or Goodyear dropping sulfur on rubber and inventing vulcanization?

best,
mrscottishman

 

[The National Razor]

I'd say you're taking this all way too seriously, and then realized that all of us take things way too seriously.

So don't take all the taking things seriously seriously.

Ummmm...I think.

 

[Chickpea McGee]

This thread has been an interesting sociological experience.

I really have nothing new to add, only to re-phrase the issue and say that the OP appears to be more upset with basic human nature (which can indeed be frustrating!) than with this or any other wetshaving community.

I think that one of the great things about a wetshaving interest is that just about anyone can participate at some level. The cost barriers to entry will be lower than just about any other "manly" pursuit. With almost everyone spending some money on shaving already, wetshaving can actually save a person money. (At least that is the rationale until one realizes how enjoyable the shaving experience can be, and then it does become a hobby and all bets are off.)

There is an interesting thread on here listing the breakdown of many members' jobs/professions/career tracks. As expected for a public internet forum of over 20k members, the socio-economic breakdown is extremely diverse. If everyone spent 1% of their income each year on shaving supplies, that amount would range widely. If that 1% means $80 for one gentleman, then this board can help him maximize and reflect on his enjoyment within this budget. At the same time, if that same 1% of income means $5,000 to another, then there is obviously a wider range of options and experiences available to him, and this board remains a great forum to discuss those products. More power to both of them. I don't see any reason that someone who owns their own jet (not I!) should be expected to use Williams soap and sing its praises.

Can there be envy, frustration, or even awkwardness when someone with a $80 budget gets a recommendation for a $200 silvertip from another member? Sure, but one should either pre-define their budget (as many do) when asking for feedback, or be capable of shrugging off non-helpful responses.

 

[Alfredo Becerra]

Wwant to clearify a few things:

1.- I did not call anyone a snob.

2.- I said earlier that I did not agree with the review 100%, it just made me re-think a few things

3.- I bet that Hindu guy is going to LOOOOOOVE Williams, you know, since it's imported and "naughty" over there due to the tallow.

 

[ajkimmins]

As long as we don't take life too seriously. I mean hey we all lose that game eventually!!

 

[Pumpkin]

I'm sure someone in Europe is desperate to try VDH because they've heard so much about it and would pay $15 for a puck.

I'd be interested in trying it (and Williams) but not at $15 a puck (unless it's a REALLY big puck)!!

 

[Alfredo Becerra]

I'd be interested in trying it (and Williams) but not at $15 a puck (unless it's a REALLY big puck)!!

Well my friend, we here in the U.S.A. seem to think that it is perfectly OK to pay 15 bucks for a puck of soap.

By the way, everyone says "I agree with this, I disagree with that," etc etc etc... Everyone has addressed most points, which are subjective, but no one has addressed a very objective question I asked, so I'll ask again:

How come products like, say, Williams for example, get glowing reviews everywhere else but here????

 

[troy1979]

interesting thread, i will have to think about it...i do agree.