ID for possible Thuri please

[Loric]

I got offered this stone as a second chance on Ebay, and after reading that some merchants try to pass off lesser stones as Thuri's I felt it best to ask here what the experts thought. Here is the pic, let me know if you all think its legit. This one in particular was labeled as a "MST Muller Thuringian Water Hone" Thanks for your help!

 

[Joe Edson]

If it is an MST water hone it is a thuri, but it is not a vintage one. There is pretty much agreement that the new MST stones are nothing like a vintage thuri in terms of finishing.

I would pass on it if I were you.

 

[Loric]

Thanks Harvitz81. I knew something was up when this large one went for half of what a smaller vintage one went for yesterday. Then the second chance offer coming in for less than that made me cautious.

 

[danjared]

If it is an MST water hone it is a thuri, but it is not a vintage one. There is pretty much agreement that the new MST stones are nothing like a vintage thuri in terms of finishing.

I would pass on it if I were you.

No, they sold (and still have some smaller ones) actual Thuringer hones that were equal to the vintage ones. I speak from first hand experience. They just also sell German stones that aren't from Thuringia. Those are the lesser ones you hear of.

 

[life2short1971]

Judging by the color I wouldn't be so quick to pass that stone up. If its reasonable I would try it. Could you post the link please?

 

[Loric]

No, they sold (and still have some smaller ones) actual Thuringer hones that were equal to the vintage ones. I speak from first hand experience. They just also sell German stones that aren't from Thuringia. Those are the lesser ones you hear of.

Can you tell by the photo if this might be one of the good ones?

I have my heart set on a Thuri/Ecsher, but the shave geek in me is curious how the Chinese 15000 stones compare. I noticed some of them on around, but only see reviews for the 12k variant. I dont think I want one, but why not ask for educational purposes.

 

[Joe Edson]

No, they sold (and still have some smaller ones) actual Thuringer hones that were equal to the vintage ones. I speak from first hand experience. They just also sell German stones that aren't from Thuringia. Those are the lesser ones you hear of.

I stand corrected. I know SliceOfLife got a bunch in a group buy that were very good stones so I shouldn't have spoke so soon.

 

[Loric]

Judging by the color I wouldn't be so quick to pass that stone up. If its reasonable I would try it. Could you post the link please?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=260724754491&si=fJ%252FASLwzV4VixNzUdgY5Mb3r8Do%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT

The second chance offer was for $150, its plenty of money for a hone, but is still cheaper than most others I have seen.

 

[Joe Edson]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=260724754491&si=fJ%252FASLwzV4VixNzUdgY5Mb3r8Do%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT

The second chance offer was for $150, its plenty of money for a hone, but is still cheaper than most others I have seen.

That is advertising it as a new thuringian stone. My vintage thuri and escher were both pretty soft and this advertises it as a harder stone.

You can pick up 1x5" boxed celebrated water hones (vintage thuri's) pretty regularly on eBay for $60-80. I would suggest that route first if you just want to get a feel of the edge off them before selling out a tone for a large escher.

Personally, if it was me and a stone was $150. Between the one you posted and a Frankonian hone (from Olivia Seife's website), I'd go with the frankonian any day. I actually am starting to prefer mine to my escher. YMMV

 

[danjared]

I stand corrected. I know SliceOfLife got a bunch in a group buy that were very good stones so I shouldn't have spoke so soon.

I've had one from him, a couple vintage ones, and an MST one I got from Howard at The Perfect Edge (2'5"x5", IIRC). They all were very fine. Life2short1971 bought (and sold) that last one and compared it to his S.R. Droescher Thüringer.

The best way to distinguish between the new Thüringer and the other German waterstone is by the size of the cut (for one, the latter is usually much thicker) and color (the latter is usually darker).

 

[Disburden]

For what it's worth I have heard these stones aren't nearly as fine as the Old Escher stones were and leave a nice edge but lower than the Escher, probably around 12K or so. This is all here say since the stone I have is a darker one and is horrible and rough, the slurry is scratchy even.

I will also say that for 150USD you can get an oozuku Asagi from JNS that is a fine jnat that leaves the best edges I have tried yet, even compared to an Escher. Some may be willing to buy one of those instead...?

YMMV!

 

[danjared]

Wow, that's a big stone. I've never heard of Thüringer hones that were cut so large.

 

[danjared]

For what it's worth I have heard these stones aren't nearly as fine as the Old Escher stones were and leave a nice edge but lower than the Escher, probably around 12K or so. This is all here say since the stone I have is a darker one and is horrible and rough, the slurry is scratchy even.

I will also say that for 150USD you can get an oozuku Asagi from JNS that is a fine jnat that leaves the best edges I have tried yet, even compared to an Escher. Some may be willing to buy one of those instead...?

YMMV!

If yours is scratchy, it sounds like one of the MST hones that is not a Thüringer. The MST Thüringers that I've had were not at all scratchy.

 

[Disburden]

If yours is scratchy, it sounds like one of the MST hones that is not a Thüringer. The MST Thüringers that I've had were not at all scratchy.

Yes its the dark ones that are long like the longer Thuringian stones of old, it's not the one sold incorrectly as an Escher but the other that is sold as a normal Thuringian.

 

[danjared]

Yes its the dark ones that are long like the longer Thuringian stones of old, it's not the one sold incorrectly as an Escher but the other that is sold as a normal Thuringian.

So sold incorrectly as a Thüringer (which is what Timber Tools sadly does). Where did you buy it?

 

[Disburden]

It may very well have been from Timber Tools, it was over a year ago so I may be wrong.

I am not referring to this that stone when speaking about the one in the OP though, I just want to clarify. The one pictured I've heard is more around a 12k stone or a 10K stone the stone I own is probably 6K if that.

 

[Loric]

Personally, if it was me and a stone was $150. Between the one you posted and a Frankonian hone (from Olivia Seife's website), I'd go with the frankonian any day. I actually am starting to prefer mine to my escher. YMMV

What is it that you like about the Frankonian hone better than an Escher?

 

[life2short1971]

After having the same info you have I would buy a Frankonian from Olivia. John Emerson just bought one see if his came in yet.

 

[Disburden]

Thanks for the HAD guys.

 

[danjared]

I have my heart set on a Thuri/Ecsher, but the shave geek in me is curious how the Chinese 15000 stones compare. I noticed some of them on around, but only see reviews for the 12k variant. I dont think I want one, but why not ask for educational purposes.

The "12k" is just a guess that someone made. If is difficult, if not impossible, to give a grit rating for a natural stone, especially considering how difficult it is to account for things such as slurry (and different slurry concentrations) and how the stone is lapped. These are particularly important since finer natural stones are typically not as friable as synthetic stones. Actually, it's not even that easy to try to compare different lines of synthetic stones given the different ways that they are made and function. Nonetheless, there is a consensus that the Thüringers leave a finer edge than these Chinese natural hones, even if some of these Chinese naturals are function better than others. I'm not saying that should stop you from finding out yourself if you are still curious.

By the way, it appears that MST made some non-Thüringer hones that are as large as the one you have available for purchase, so I would stay away from it unless you want a non-finisher.

It may very well have been from Timber Tools, it was over a year ago so I may be wrong.

I am not referring to this that stone when speaking about the one in the OP though, I just want to clarify. The one pictured I've heard is more around a 12k stone or a 10K stone the stone I own is probably 6K if that.

This sounds like the lesser stone, then. MST calls them the "Natur-Wasserabziehstein". See http://www.mst-mueller.de/seiten/neue_produkte.htm. As for the better stones, somehow some vendors translated "Original-Thüringer Wasserabziehsteine" as "the Original Escher", which is a shameful business move but not as much as calling a stone that's not from Thüringia a Thüringer, which is a little like calling something from the US Mexican or Canadian (maybe not the best comparison, as I rather like Canada and Mexico).

Can we make this info a sticky? I feel that, every few months, someone brings this up and someone else has to clarify and correct.