I just had a shave off of 8k

[SavantStrike]

I have to say it wasn't the bloodbath or the irritation festival that I was expecting based on how desperately some people here say you need to use higher grits. I think I will go ahead and put the blade though the 12k stage now as I do believe it makes a difference in the smoothness of the shave (no competition, the 12k does give that last little bit of sharpness), but for someone who doesn't have a 12k, your legs aren't broken.

Setup was simple. I honed a blade though 1k, 4k, and 8k and gave it a bunch of hits on the pasted canvas, then went back and gave it 15 hits on chromium oxide, then went for pasted canvas followed by leather. I compared it to my current blade and both shaved well, in fact since I liked the 8k blade better (it looks cooler, and it's mildly heavier) I put the 12k blade down and used the 8k. Both blades are 5/8 1/2 hollow blades, and this is as close to apples to apples as I could have gotten. At some point I will do it one better and commit another experiment. More on that when/if it ever happens.

 

[Seraphim]

So, it actually wasn't coming straight off of the 8k, as you also hit up the CroMo, right?

 

[SavantStrike]

So, it actually wasn't coming straight off of the 8k, as you also hit up the CroMo, right?

I knew someone would call me out on that .

Yes, you're right. I went for the CroMo before the shave occurred. I wasn't claiming 12k + CroMo == 8k + CroMo, just that 12k isn't absolutely necessary. Like I said 12k added some smoothness in my mind. My post was really about how 8k + CroMo is still more than doable, thus the 12k is a luxury not a necessity. Admittedly I'm not giving it up either .

 

[mparker762]

, and double at the chrome oxide.

Neither the high grit hones nor pastes are really necessary. Back in the day lots of us shaved straight off the Norton 8k, and some senior members still do. The Norton 8k and other similar hones like the Shapton 8k will produce a really nice edge if you do your bit, and I can even remember guys shaving successfully straight off the 4k side. It's just that the higher grit hones and pastes make it so much easier that you don't really have to have much of a touch at all, so I suspect that the only guys capable of this nowadays are the ones that started back when the Norton 4k/8k hone was the standard, and coticules were exotic and ran $300+ on ebay, if you were lucky enough to win the bid.

Mind you I think this ease-of-use of the high grit hones and pastes is a tremendous feature. But it is amusing to see how far things have come.

You should give it a try straight off the 8k. Learning how to hone well enough to shave comfortably off the 8k is a really good learning experience. Not necessarily a good thing to have to master right off the bat like I did back in 2005, but definitely a useful skill to acquire once you're over that initial hump.

 

[SavantStrike]

, and double at the chrome oxide.

Neither the high grit hones nor pastes are really necessary. Back in the day lots of us shaved straight off the Norton 8k, and some senior members still do. The Norton 8k and other similar hones like the Shapton 8k will produce a really nice edge if you do your bit, and I can even remember guys shaving successfully straight off the 4k side. It's just that the higher grit hones and pastes make it so much easier that you don't really have to have much of a touch at all, so I suspect that the only guys capable of this nowadays are the ones that started back when the Norton 4k/8k hone was the standard, and coticules were exotic and ran $300+ on ebay, if you were lucky enough to win the bid.

Mind you I think this ease-of-use of the high grit hones and pastes is a tremendous feature. But it is amusing to see how far things have come.

You should give it a try straight off the 8k. Learning how to hone well enough to shave comfortably off the 8k is a really good learning experience. Not necessarily a good thing to have to master right off the bat like I did back in 2005, but definitely a useful skill to acquire once you're over that initial hump.

8k is a high grit hone? Wow I really am spoiled .

When I heard people talking about shaving off of an 8k, I thought it meant they used paste afterwards . I mean, didn't a lot of guys use a strop with paste on one side even back in the day (whenever that was, 1900, 1910, 1870)?

Here I was thinking I was roughing it by B&B standards .

Next razor I hone I'll go au naturale with the 8k. I'll wait a while for that 4k chicanery. I don't think I want to try that just yet.

 

[mparker762]

The high grit hones and pastes allow you to get the level of polish you need without having to worry too much about pressure. To shave well off an 8k hone you need a very steady hand, and I always wound up using the scales to counterbalance the weight of the blade so the razor is almost balanced on the spine and my pinky, with the edge just barely skimming the hone as I pushed it along. But it shaved quite well as I recall.

With 30k Shaptons and Nakayamas and pastes you can pretty much just shove the razor along any old way and it will get a great edge.

 

[leighton]

What mparker said. Really don't have much to add other than my concurring opinion.

Shaving off the 8k is probably the mark of someone with good technique. Not sure if it can be done without good honing technique. I've tried shaving off the 4k. It works. Not very comfortable though. Finishing stones & pastes certainly give the razor that extra smoothness and are well worth it IMHO. But 8k is all that is absolutely necessary.

 

[zippo]

If I`m honing for some one after the 8K I use a finishing hone of around 16k then 3 grades of diamond paste down to .25 micron. When I`m honing for myself I usually come straight off the 8k norton strop then shave , if the honing is done correctly the shave should be just as good.
When providing a service the only reason I go to the extra trouble is professional pride and you should strive for perfection when hard earned cash is involved,but how far do you go,? there is obviously a point reached when finer and finer grit sizes make no decernable difference,it may under a loupe or microscope ,but I thought it was all about shaving comfort ,after all
Kind regards Peter

 

[SavantStrike]

Well it sounds like I have a new goal to aim for now.

What about the pasted linen? Technically that's got super fine grit on it (white compound/chalk). Do I need to skip the linen to get an accurate result on this test?

 

[gregs656]

I shave off razors that have come off an 8kish coticule every day of the week.

No big deal from where I'm sitting, sometimes I wonder about getting a C12, but haven't clicked the button yet. One day, maybe.

No pasted strops either, just my BBW/Coti

 

[Tyrfingr]

I've been shaving right of the 8k for well over a year with no hassle what so ever. Although i have a Chinese 12k laying around that needs to be lapped, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[gugi]

i had a razor that the dmt-e was leaving really tiny scratch marks on it.
since the only thing that matters is the final edge, not how you get to it i tried it right of the dmt-e.
it shaved, not very good, but not worse than few 'shave ready' labeled razors i've bought on the forums.
but that's the only razor i ever thought worth trying at this stage. the typical steel is quite rough off that stone and since i have a lot of fine hones i find no reason to shave from norton or naniwa 8k anymore. unless it's to establish a base level for comparison of the improvement other hones would give me beyond that.
but it was quite useful when i first started learning honing.

 

[Seraphim]

From Tim Zowada's site:

The edge off of the 8000:

After 10 laps on Cromox:

You can see that the edge after the Cromo is much smoother than the edge directly off of the 8K.

The real question is: are the higher grit hones needed, if in the end you're gonna hit the Cromox anyhow?

I know that somewhere Joel said that he found that by going direct from the DMT8EE to chromox gave just about as good an edge as anything else out there (I'm paraphrasing, but I believe that was his stated conclusion)

 

[leighton]

i had a razor that the dmt-e was leaving really tiny scratch marks on it.
since the only thing that matters is the final edge, not how you get to it i tried it right of the dmt-e.
it shaved, not very good, but not worse than few 'shave ready' labeled razors i've bought on the forums.
but that's the only razor i ever thought worth trying at this stage. the typical steel is quite rough off that stone and since i have a lot of fine hones i find no reason to shave from norton or naniwa 8k anymore. unless it's to establish a base level for comparison of the improvement other hones would give me beyond that.
but it was quite useful when i first started learning honing.

I must admit that the DMT-E gives a damn good edge. One that I have been able to shave off of. Not one that I would shave off of, mind you, but passable.

I classify Crox as a finishing stone/paste right up there with the 12k or whatnot. Personally if your going to go to crox anyway, there isn't any real *need* to use the 12k. I can think of quite a few reasons to do it, but none of them are "necessary." However, all are good reasons.

 

[SavantStrike]

I must admit that the DMT-E gives a damn good edge. One that I have been able to shave off of. Not one that I would shave off of, mind you, but passable.

I classify Crox as a finishing stone/paste right up there with the 12k or whatnot. Personally if your going to go to crox anyway, there isn't any real *need* to use the 12k. I can think of quite a few reasons to do it, but none of them are "necessary." However, all are good reasons.

I just gave the previously mentioned blade some attention at 12k for hundred or so laps, and didn't bother with the crox. I had an awesome shave. I don't need any other reasons why I should use the 12k before crox.

Or maybe I'm just justifying using a finishing hone .

 

[gugi]

well, at the end is what works for you.
i'm sure that it's a combination of steel, grind, hone, skill, time...

since i got a naniwa 1000 grit some time ago I generally find that it leaves much nicer bevel than the dmt-e. But there are exceptions - the other day I was honing a razor and the naniwa 1000 was leaving microchips on the edge, and the dmt-e wasn't. i suspect that something similar can happen on much smaller scale on the high grits as well, just hard to see without really good magnification. at certain stage it becomes irrelevant since the differences in cutting hair are dominated by other factors, not the edge.

i know that i couldn't appreciate the differences between great edge and decent edge for months. so all you guys who honed my first razors - you could've been a whole lot sloppier and I'd have had the same results back then. but the differences certainly became apparent later, and I'm sure that I'll be noticing a lot more as I get more experience in future.

 

[RayG]

The real question is: are the higher grit hones needed, if in the end you're gonna hit the Cromox anyhow?

After the 8K or 12k is one thing, but I find it hard to understand spending close to $300 for a 30k shap or more than that for a Nakayama, then routinely stropping on CrO or diamond after that.

 

[RayG]

I must admit that the DMT-E gives a damn good edge. One that I have been able to shave off of. Not one that I would shave off of, mind you, but passable.

C'mon guys, what's next... shaving off a 325 lapping plate?

 

[gugi]

C'mon guys, what's next... shaving off a 325 lapping plate?

well, that would be the one after going to 600, and I forgot who said they did it once (dmt-f that is)

but we all know the ultimate goal - that garnet colored hone with the milk we've all seen on youtube

 

[mparker762]

After the 8K or 12k is one thing, but I find it hard to understand spending close to $300 for a 30k shap or more than that for a Nakayama, then routinely stropping on CrO or diamond after that.

Well, I would use one of those before going to 0.1 micron diamond, but yeah using one of these as stepping stone to crox or 0.5 micron diamond is pretty silly, since these hones are as fine or finer than those pastes. If you're gonna use a paste then you're better to jump there straight from the 8k.

Needless to say my S30 and Nakayama pretty much just sit in the closet keeping each other company.