Weve had some great discussion in various threads re: finishing razors with very high grit pastes. Stuff like Ken Schwartz 0.125/0.1µ CBN & 0.050µ Mono diamond
Also the best way to finish on 0.25µ diamond & just what brand & if mono or polycrystalline sprays are the best.
Well, as always YMMV, but heres my take on it:
First off, my take on a razors edge is that it should be as sharp as possible & that it should still be smooth & not cause any irritation. (Hey dont we all )
I have typical Scandinavian skin, rather dry & sensitive that gets a nice piggy red color in the summer sun & cracked & pale as death in the winter.. Great complexion to have
The reason Im saying this is that the edges Ill talk about here really have to be skin-friendly
I surely aint no Texan that can shave with his hunting knife & some bar soap
We have also recently talked about another strongly related subject & that is the matter of a true edge on a certain grit or a polished egde.
In short it is that if you really want to establish for example a true 0.125µ edge
you must take careful steps to remove the previous scratches made from the previous grit stone/compounds.
Think of it like if you are restoring a straight with hand-sanding.
To get a true mirror finish you must remove all the scratches made with the previously used sandpaper, or these scratches will be visible, no matter how much you go at it with higher grits.
But you can immediately jump to a much bigger grit, that wont establish a true edge.
All though it can still make quite a difference on the edge.
This method is in fact used very often, mainly with chromium oxide where people often
use CrOx as a finisher after their last stone.
Say that you use CrOx after a 10K stone.
CrOx is ~0.5µ which translates to about 30K grit.
And since CrOx cuts rather slow, you certainly dont get a true 30K grit edge, what you get is a polished 10K edge. Which for most people is both a bit sharper & a bit smoother.
But you havent taken out the 10K scratches, you have as said polished them.
Do you follow?
Removing all previous scratches before heading on to the next grit sure takes some work & might be counter-intuitive to most people, because we have all heard the dreaded story about over-honing right?
Im a firm believer that such a thing as overhoning does not exist.
But lets take that discussion elsewhere, all though I feel that it is worth mentioning because it is firmly planted in many peoples minds, for some bizarre reason
Same thing with crumbling edges.
Sure I see crumbling edges all the time when I sharpen knifes made out of poor steel.
But you simply not find bad steel in any vintage of newly made razor of a more well known brand. So its a non-issue IMO.
Well then, lets make a true nano-grit edge, shall we?
My most used progression goes like this:
DMT 325(If things are bad..) Chosera 1K >Naniwa SS 2/5/8/10K or
substitute Naniwa SS 2/5/8 with BBW slurry dilution.
I make sure that I leave the 10K with a truly maxed out edge, i.e
finish with no pressure & take good care to know that I really cant take it any further.
Ive experimented with doing some 10 laps with the spine leading on the 10K
just to establish a stropping scratch pattern. I think it is beneficial, but not sure how much it matters.
Then onto the strops.
If I had access to a higher grit synth, like a 12K SS or Shapton 16/30K Id use it too before the strops. I instead substitute them with the 1µ & 0.5µ or 30K Shapton Pro slurry-pasted balsa strop I have.
First out is 1µ Hand American mono crystalline diamond on balsa.
Then its either 0.5µ Hand American mono crystalline diamond on balsa or leather (paddle/bench) or the aforementioned balsa-strop pasted with 30K Shapton 30K slurry.
At this point you should have an edge that is very, very sharp, but might cut hair a trifle grippy
I test with the tips of my armhair, but I guess the HHT would do well too.
The good thing with armhair is that I get great feedback when cutting slow from my follicles, an ever slight grippy feeling is easily felt once you are tuned in & calibrated..
So, here comes the fun part..
On to either 0.25µ mono from HA or Ken Schwartz poly 0.25µ
I used to feel that the mono was the best for razors (the poly is absolute favorite for knifes & hair shears though!) but recently I must say that the poly is closing in, less laps is needed & when if I go beyond 0.125µ CBN, the difference is pretty much lost.
Anyway, once again its balsa or paddle/bench hard leather that is the substrate of choice. No felt!
After you are done here, the edge is up one notch more.
But the grip is there & at this moment you have a super-sharp edge, that would probably be to harsh for most people.
But, we will sort that out too.
Enter CBN 0.125µ on balsa.
Here you can go nuts. As long as it is blade weight only, you can really go to town here.
Just remember to keep the pressure to blade only & do your strokes nice & easy. You will probably think that you are overdoing it or that nothing is happening.
But neither is true. Have faith.
When done, try your armhair again. There will be no pull at all.
HHT will be 5+
The shave will be exquisite.
You will experience a smoothness that is surely on par with CrOx, but its so sharp that first few shaves will be a bit scary. All the bad habits you have gotten used to during your less then nano-grit sharp shaves will not be tolerated by this blade.
But, when you get it on, the shaves will be at a new level. No joke, the difference is bigger then subtle for sure.
This is beyond BBS & its absolutely no effort att all to shave with it.
You can absolutely stop here, like I wrote, the shave is outstanding, sharper then the finest J-nat or Shapton 30K or diamond can provide & not only that but also far smoother then any of them can muster.
You will also experience a new look to your edge.
We all know the intense reflections coming of a freshly honed, shave-ready blades edge, but after the CBN, even the look is something else.
The best description Ive heard is liquid mercury Amazing to look at.
But, since there is compounds offering to take it even further, lets do it!
Ive so far tested Ken Schwartz 0.050 diamond in mono.
The 0.050µ in poly & 0.025µ in mono & poly is yet to be tested.
But once Ive tested them thoroughly, Ill report back.
Ive used the 0.050µ in several ways, all with good results.
The best way for me is to either use it on balsa & once again go nuts with the laps.
Dont worry, at this nano-level, diamond is no longer harsh. Its just a very, very smoothing
compound. What this method with use on balsa does is to make the edge a tad more sharp & even a bit more pleasant. The difference isnt as big as between the 0.25µ diamond & 0.125µ
where there is a very noticeable difference, but it sure is there.
Or you can use a smooth hanging leather strop treated with 0.050µ
If I go that route, I let the strop slack a little, like I was stropping a wedge honed with a few layers of tape. I then do 10-20 laps very lightly.
This creates the tiniest convexing & seems to crank up the sharpness even a bit more then on balsa. A scary sharp edge for sure. Such an edge leaves me BBS for 24 hours.
At these grit levels, we are probably nearing the grit-levels of the naturally occurring silicates that are found in all leather. So after 0.050µ I dont strop for the first shave & dont strop more then ~20 very light laps between shaves. I never use the linen, it's IMO too coarse at these levels.
As for using the CBN as a polisher most anything goes.
0.125µ is a very high grit number, so you wont be altering an edge in any big way, but it is a very potent cutter, so you will have a fast positive effect. Both in sharpness & smoothness / pleasant factor of the shave.
Even if it cuts very fast, it doesnt cut anywhere close to as harshly as diamond, so youll have a much bigger window of getting it right. With diamond that window is pretty small.
And you have to use substrates like hard felt, that severely impounds the diamonds cutting ability, to make it work.
But, you can without harm use diamond rather heavy, as long as you use the CBN afterwards.
It tames the edge, pretty much like CrOx does, but so much more effectively then CrOx & not only smooths, but also adds keenness.
I have over the last months tested these compounds extensively, but I have had only one really bad shave. And the things I did then arent something most people will ever try
So, they are rather easy to use for most people.
The 0.050µ is a bit to high up in grits to work as a polisher on its own.
But it really can make a difference after an edge has been polished with either 0.25µ and/or CBN 0.125µ
I think I have more to say, but Ill leave it at that for now
Anyone awake? any questions?
Also the best way to finish on 0.25µ diamond & just what brand & if mono or polycrystalline sprays are the best.
Well, as always YMMV, but heres my take on it:
First off, my take on a razors edge is that it should be as sharp as possible & that it should still be smooth & not cause any irritation. (Hey dont we all )
I have typical Scandinavian skin, rather dry & sensitive that gets a nice piggy red color in the summer sun & cracked & pale as death in the winter.. Great complexion to have
The reason Im saying this is that the edges Ill talk about here really have to be skin-friendly
I surely aint no Texan that can shave with his hunting knife & some bar soap
We have also recently talked about another strongly related subject & that is the matter of a true edge on a certain grit or a polished egde.
In short it is that if you really want to establish for example a true 0.125µ edge
you must take careful steps to remove the previous scratches made from the previous grit stone/compounds.
Think of it like if you are restoring a straight with hand-sanding.
To get a true mirror finish you must remove all the scratches made with the previously used sandpaper, or these scratches will be visible, no matter how much you go at it with higher grits.
But you can immediately jump to a much bigger grit, that wont establish a true edge.
All though it can still make quite a difference on the edge.
This method is in fact used very often, mainly with chromium oxide where people often
use CrOx as a finisher after their last stone.
Say that you use CrOx after a 10K stone.
CrOx is ~0.5µ which translates to about 30K grit.
And since CrOx cuts rather slow, you certainly dont get a true 30K grit edge, what you get is a polished 10K edge. Which for most people is both a bit sharper & a bit smoother.
But you havent taken out the 10K scratches, you have as said polished them.
Do you follow?
Removing all previous scratches before heading on to the next grit sure takes some work & might be counter-intuitive to most people, because we have all heard the dreaded story about over-honing right?
Im a firm believer that such a thing as overhoning does not exist.
But lets take that discussion elsewhere, all though I feel that it is worth mentioning because it is firmly planted in many peoples minds, for some bizarre reason
Same thing with crumbling edges.
Sure I see crumbling edges all the time when I sharpen knifes made out of poor steel.
But you simply not find bad steel in any vintage of newly made razor of a more well known brand. So its a non-issue IMO.
Well then, lets make a true nano-grit edge, shall we?
My most used progression goes like this:
DMT 325(If things are bad..) Chosera 1K >Naniwa SS 2/5/8/10K or
substitute Naniwa SS 2/5/8 with BBW slurry dilution.
I make sure that I leave the 10K with a truly maxed out edge, i.e
finish with no pressure & take good care to know that I really cant take it any further.
Ive experimented with doing some 10 laps with the spine leading on the 10K
just to establish a stropping scratch pattern. I think it is beneficial, but not sure how much it matters.
Then onto the strops.
If I had access to a higher grit synth, like a 12K SS or Shapton 16/30K Id use it too before the strops. I instead substitute them with the 1µ & 0.5µ or 30K Shapton Pro slurry-pasted balsa strop I have.
First out is 1µ Hand American mono crystalline diamond on balsa.
Then its either 0.5µ Hand American mono crystalline diamond on balsa or leather (paddle/bench) or the aforementioned balsa-strop pasted with 30K Shapton 30K slurry.
At this point you should have an edge that is very, very sharp, but might cut hair a trifle grippy
I test with the tips of my armhair, but I guess the HHT would do well too.
The good thing with armhair is that I get great feedback when cutting slow from my follicles, an ever slight grippy feeling is easily felt once you are tuned in & calibrated..
So, here comes the fun part..
On to either 0.25µ mono from HA or Ken Schwartz poly 0.25µ
I used to feel that the mono was the best for razors (the poly is absolute favorite for knifes & hair shears though!) but recently I must say that the poly is closing in, less laps is needed & when if I go beyond 0.125µ CBN, the difference is pretty much lost.
Anyway, once again its balsa or paddle/bench hard leather that is the substrate of choice. No felt!
After you are done here, the edge is up one notch more.
But the grip is there & at this moment you have a super-sharp edge, that would probably be to harsh for most people.
But, we will sort that out too.
Enter CBN 0.125µ on balsa.
Here you can go nuts. As long as it is blade weight only, you can really go to town here.
Just remember to keep the pressure to blade only & do your strokes nice & easy. You will probably think that you are overdoing it or that nothing is happening.
But neither is true. Have faith.
When done, try your armhair again. There will be no pull at all.
HHT will be 5+
The shave will be exquisite.
You will experience a smoothness that is surely on par with CrOx, but its so sharp that first few shaves will be a bit scary. All the bad habits you have gotten used to during your less then nano-grit sharp shaves will not be tolerated by this blade.
But, when you get it on, the shaves will be at a new level. No joke, the difference is bigger then subtle for sure.
This is beyond BBS & its absolutely no effort att all to shave with it.
You can absolutely stop here, like I wrote, the shave is outstanding, sharper then the finest J-nat or Shapton 30K or diamond can provide & not only that but also far smoother then any of them can muster.
You will also experience a new look to your edge.
We all know the intense reflections coming of a freshly honed, shave-ready blades edge, but after the CBN, even the look is something else.
The best description Ive heard is liquid mercury Amazing to look at.
But, since there is compounds offering to take it even further, lets do it!
Ive so far tested Ken Schwartz 0.050 diamond in mono.
The 0.050µ in poly & 0.025µ in mono & poly is yet to be tested.
But once Ive tested them thoroughly, Ill report back.
Ive used the 0.050µ in several ways, all with good results.
The best way for me is to either use it on balsa & once again go nuts with the laps.
Dont worry, at this nano-level, diamond is no longer harsh. Its just a very, very smoothing
compound. What this method with use on balsa does is to make the edge a tad more sharp & even a bit more pleasant. The difference isnt as big as between the 0.25µ diamond & 0.125µ
where there is a very noticeable difference, but it sure is there.
Or you can use a smooth hanging leather strop treated with 0.050µ
If I go that route, I let the strop slack a little, like I was stropping a wedge honed with a few layers of tape. I then do 10-20 laps very lightly.
This creates the tiniest convexing & seems to crank up the sharpness even a bit more then on balsa. A scary sharp edge for sure. Such an edge leaves me BBS for 24 hours.
At these grit levels, we are probably nearing the grit-levels of the naturally occurring silicates that are found in all leather. So after 0.050µ I dont strop for the first shave & dont strop more then ~20 very light laps between shaves. I never use the linen, it's IMO too coarse at these levels.
As for using the CBN as a polisher most anything goes.
0.125µ is a very high grit number, so you wont be altering an edge in any big way, but it is a very potent cutter, so you will have a fast positive effect. Both in sharpness & smoothness / pleasant factor of the shave.
Even if it cuts very fast, it doesnt cut anywhere close to as harshly as diamond, so youll have a much bigger window of getting it right. With diamond that window is pretty small.
And you have to use substrates like hard felt, that severely impounds the diamonds cutting ability, to make it work.
But, you can without harm use diamond rather heavy, as long as you use the CBN afterwards.
It tames the edge, pretty much like CrOx does, but so much more effectively then CrOx & not only smooths, but also adds keenness.
I have over the last months tested these compounds extensively, but I have had only one really bad shave. And the things I did then arent something most people will ever try
So, they are rather easy to use for most people.
The 0.050µ is a bit to high up in grits to work as a polisher on its own.
But it really can make a difference after an edge has been polished with either 0.25µ and/or CBN 0.125µ
I think I have more to say, but Ill leave it at that for now
Anyone awake? any questions?
