You’ve nailed it. Ask any straight razor shaver. A sharp blade with a low shaving angle and a light touch equals a comfortable shave. There’s nothing aggressive about it. The trouble with DE is that the cap and guard limit the shaving angle. It’s impossible to get shallow enough. To get closer to an acceptable angle they make the blade thin and bend it. But it’s not a perfect solution and now you have a flimsy blade to deal with which brings its own problems. Round and round they go tweeking the blade exposure, the blade gap and the clamping. No matter what you do you will always be compromising on the shave angle and that’s the most important aspect. The manufacturers don’t talk about it because there’s not much they can do to fix it. They can only do their best to try to make shaving at the wrong angle as comfortable as possible.
The missing variable that Gillette knew, but most modern razor manufacturers are oblivious
- Thread starter esee
- Start date
I don't know all the proper technical verbiage. I cannot say whether the face-contact angle is THE 3rd most important characteristic of a razor because it would require scientific experimentation to eventually reach such a statement but I do think it is an important characteristic.
I agree with you on the fact that many razors force an angle that ends up not being optimal for a clean cut. This is why I tend to shy away from Henson and other razors that offer a "built in" angle and don't allow for the user to play with the angle themselves. It is more difficult at first but I'd rather have a razor that lets me adjust different angles by riding the cap or the bar or an in between.
You may very well be right about there being an optimal cutting angle due to physics. (Force, friction, materials science for blade). From a quick google search, it seems for a sharp blade that angle is often between 15 and 25 degrees to minimize the force needed and friction. Theoretically if such an angle exists, a manufacturer can try to design a razor that naturally suggest a face-contact angle within that range. However it seems complicated to hit the perfect angle, rather than a range.
The 2 potential problems I see with this are:
Now, if for some reason, any of the 2 points I mentioned above have any merit, then it becomes complicated to design a razor that always contacts the face at the optimal cutting angle, and it seems to me the best a manufacturer can do is try to offer a design that offers a range that includes most optimal cutting angles but does not lock you in since you (the user) will still need to adjust it to meet the complex geometry of your face. I highly suspect this has all been studied before by a lot of manufacturers and is already being implemented with varying levels of success.
I agree with you on the fact that many razors force an angle that ends up not being optimal for a clean cut. This is why I tend to shy away from Henson and other razors that offer a "built in" angle and don't allow for the user to play with the angle themselves. It is more difficult at first but I'd rather have a razor that lets me adjust different angles by riding the cap or the bar or an in between.
You may very well be right about there being an optimal cutting angle due to physics. (Force, friction, materials science for blade). From a quick google search, it seems for a sharp blade that angle is often between 15 and 25 degrees to minimize the force needed and friction. Theoretically if such an angle exists, a manufacturer can try to design a razor that naturally suggest a face-contact angle within that range. However it seems complicated to hit the perfect angle, rather than a range.
The 2 potential problems I see with this are:
- The optimal cutting angle is with regards to a flat plane, our faces, necks and jaws offer more complicated geometry and if the head geometry does not allow to adjust that contact angle, it won't be optimal in certain areas.
- Again I haven't studied the physics too closely but I wonder if that optimal cutting angle (due to force and friction) can differ for different people due to the angle their hair grows at, even looking at only "with the grain", some people's hair grows almost straight out of the skin, while for others it grows nearly parallel to the skin. Then you have hair thickness, curliness and so on which could impact the force needed and the friction experienced. This is something that would be interesting to ask someone with a better physics or mechanical engineering background like Shane at @Blackland Razors (I know he studied physics in college). I took some physics in college but it was not my major and It's far down memory lane so very blurry.
Now, if for some reason, any of the 2 points I mentioned above have any merit, then it becomes complicated to design a razor that always contacts the face at the optimal cutting angle, and it seems to me the best a manufacturer can do is try to offer a design that offers a range that includes most optimal cutting angles but does not lock you in since you (the user) will still need to adjust it to meet the complex geometry of your face. I highly suspect this has all been studied before by a lot of manufacturers and is already being implemented with varying levels of success.
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Well I own 5 Vintage Gillette’s, each is different expirence.
One day I might do test, same new Blade in each Razor. Then Shave three day with same New Blade.
To see what Vintage is best, my most like able.
The one I know will not be King of Hill is my 47 Super Speed. Reason is it is Head Heavy, IMHO if Handle was 1/2” longer it would be better to use.
IMHO
One day I might do test, same new Blade in each Razor. Then Shave three day with same New Blade.
To see what Vintage is best, my most like able.
The one I know will not be King of Hill is my 47 Super Speed. Reason is it is Head Heavy, IMHO if Handle was 1/2” longer it would be better to use.
IMHO
This is why we try to make our heads as thin as possible to give for angle flexibility. Even our Blackbird - the most "fixed" angle of our lineup - isn't very fixed at all.
There isn't one angle that works best for all circumstances and for all people. Having some flexibility gives the customer the ability to play with angle and adjust as needed. But that also gives customers the ability to screw up, get bad results, and blame the razor. Fixed angles reduce that ability and make it easier to wield well.
- Thread starter
- #25
Thank you, and you bring up another significant point, blade rigidity. I didn’t mention blade rigidity because recent razor reviews discuss blade rigidity fairly extensively. Yet a few years ago, blade rigidity may have been another under known variable that can make or break a razor.
- Thread starter
- #26
I like the nice visualization you verbalized there about different hairs growing in different directions, possibly altering the optimal cutting angle. But I still think the perfect cutting angle is where the blade bevel is as close to the skin as possible without actually cutting the skin, gliding parallel alongside the skin. When the hair grows out at an angle, one probably still wants to cut the hair parallel to the skin. There may be some more force required to cut a non-parallel hair, as one will have to cut through a wider section of the hair strand, in order to get through the hair.
If the bevel is pointed 45° down, then the point may contact the hair growing at a 45° angle when shaving with the grain parallelly. Yet even in this rare scenario, the optimal cutting angle is still off. Let’s visualize this for a second, a bevel pointing down 45°, sliding horizontally. The resistance from this shaving angle bears against the bevel’s side, potentially deforming the bevel and failing to cut the 45° parallel hair properly. With this 45° angle, any force being pushed against the skin causes the bevel to dig into the skin. When the point is parallel to the skin, a downward force doesn’t irritate the skin unless the point touches the skin and then one risks flaying their skin or scratching themselves. if one wants the exact physics for the force needed to cut the hair at different bevel angles, many calculations that take many variables into consideration would have to be performed. But since physics is so much more fun theorizing over performing exact calculations. (I loved physics but did not enjoy the calculus-based physics classes.) I would leave the calculations to a physics major.
Although there may be a theoretically optimal shave angle, and depending on the bevel edge, that optimal angle may change., your point of face counters has merit. The face angles can make getting into the optimal angle very difficult. It may be because of the lack of my shaving skills yet I find if I try to use a shallow angle shave on my chin, or on my upper lip, and some of my neck areas particularly around the Adam’s apple, I end up missing some hairs, or end up scratching myself. For the hard-to-reach crevices, I find I have two choices if I want to shave those areas properly. My first choice is to use an extremely light touch steep angle shave, or I could use a fixed angle razor that lets my lack of talent get to those tough areas with the proper angle. So yes, having a variety of angles to choose is great. My problem is when the razor blocks the shallow angle. Sadly, several razors on the market now block the shallow angle as they focus so much on blade gap and blade exposure that many times, they raised the cap in order to adjust the blade exposure. Those manufacturers appear to be oblivious to the shaving planes. On a side note, opening an adjustable razor only allows steeper angles and does not affect the shallow angles.
The booming success of Henson like razors shows how many people appreciate a comfortable shallow angle shave.
Jay21
Collecting wife bonus parts
I prefer razors that give me a range of effective angles. As I drag the razor over my face, I listen to the cutting and feel how the blade is cutting, and I adjust the angle as necessary to get those variables where I want. This allows me closeness and comfort.
Over the past 2+ years, I've learned how to speak the "Razor" language.... It took a while but these days, I try to let the razors guide me to the angle they prefer. A combination of auditory feedback and face feel will usually get me there...into the Zen Shaving Zone.... What a joy when that happens.
I credit the very fine razor designers.... past and present. I have some very nice Vintage razors from the 1930s and 40s.... and quite a few modern marvels.... I'm glad it's not necessary for me to understand the physics involved. I'm not that bright, but I sure enjoy using the fruits of their labor.
I credit the very fine razor designers.... past and present. I have some very nice Vintage razors from the 1930s and 40s.... and quite a few modern marvels.... I'm glad it's not necessary for me to understand the physics involved. I'm not that bright, but I sure enjoy using the fruits of their labor.
Wisely said, Kim
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I agree. Comfort is most important.
I've been doing it a while, too, since 2017 on this forum, and I agree with Kim.
I spent a lot of time trying to understand razor geometry, design, and engineering. I have to say I learned a lot from Grant @ShavingByTheNumbers, and many others. However, from another perspective, I learned nothing.
I have an average beard density, somewhat sensitive skin, and tough old man whiskers. I value a Damn Comfortable Shave™ above all else. I also like to get close and long lasting shaves but never chase the baby. I tend to prefer what are sometimes called mild razors which means they are smooth feeling, not prone to biting, and easy to use. For me, they must also be highly effective, and reasonably efficient.
I have some very aggressive razors, too, of course, such as the iKon Tech, etc. and can use them, but mostly prefer mild razors. I'm intrigued by the engineering, design, and performance of the Llambda Athena, and by the remarkable new Oliblade M4teorite which is smooth with all three of its baseplates (mild, medium, and aggressive), but I don't know why?
I really don't know anything.
I think I like very tightly clamped blades, a negative or small blade exposure, and not much blade reveal. I seem to get along with various gaps, but tend to prefer smallish gaps. I shave at a steep angle.
None of the shaving science stuff makes any sense to me when it comes down to the bottom line. I try not to think about it much at all. That's not me saying you should give it up, of course.
In my experience, it's not so easy to find the best razors for one's preferences and needs, but it can be done.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I began actually learning something when I learned to let the razor teach me.
It was the Schick E2 open to clean which forced me into that position. Nothing anyone told me about how to learn it worked worth a flip. I gave up and began attending to what the razor's interaction with my whiskers and skin told me. Auditory and tactile feedback.
Happy shaves,
Jim
If you want to take off the training wheels or get rid of the crutches, you should be shaving with an open blade razor.
It will also make you a better shaver no matter what razor you use.
I believe that open blade razors also provide the gentlest shave. And they are fun, too.
How many stars do you see here?
Wrong - those are actually galaxies, with on average a hundred million stars. Each. Maybe that many variables in faces, beards, experience, techniques and preferences multiplied by the galaxy of wet shavers.
But it's fun to analyze and speculate....
Wrong - those are actually galaxies, with on average a hundred million stars. Each. Maybe that many variables in faces, beards, experience, techniques and preferences multiplied by the galaxy of wet shavers.
But it's fun to analyze and speculate....- Thread starter
- #34
I actually tried listening to this advice, and it works. Feeling the razor against the face, and listening to the sounds of the whiskers being cut, helps bring the senses into the moment, inducing a Zen like state. In the in-tune shaving state, I can do steeper angle shaves on my neck and chin without irritation, yet I think the shallow angle shave has been and always will be the king of shaving.
- Thread starter
- #35
Thank you for sharing your shaving variables diagrams. I’ve seen them before through some of your other postings and they were very helpful in understanding the basic known variables of the razor.
In life, we complicate things and then think that the thing is complicating. The truth is usually simple and, most times; the answer is right in front of our eyes all along. We just can’t see the truth until we are ready to see it. When we are ready and see the truth, we realize that the truth was all around us all along.
for my simple understanding of shaving mechanics goes something like this,
1) we need a sharp blade.
2) we need a stable blade. Sadly, many razors lack this second fundamental prerequisite. When straight razors were a thing, and then when wedge blades became a thing, one did not have to worry about a flimsy blade. Later, when the thin blades came along, knowing how to make a thin blade stable became extremely important. Gillette was the first to make a thin blade and therefore they understood the blade clamping the earliest, hence some Gillette razors can still give a great shave with today’s flimsy blades, where some other vintage razors may struggle. When blades started becoming 0.1mm, or less, some great razors of the past suddenly became more aggressive and less effective.
What I’m saying is that many times, when one calls a razor aggressive, that razor doesn’t have proper blade rigidity. sometimes just using a vintage blade and that aggressive razor will tame the razor. Razors that have good rigidity with a large exposure while allowing a really shallow angle shave will usually get mixed reviews. Some say this shallow angle razor is super effective and gentle, and others will call this razor a super aggressive razor that bites.
I have no experience with the iKon Tech, but just by looking at pictures of the iKon I’m almost certain that the blade is not rigid at all. You will probably see a relatively large blade flexing if you push down on the bevel of the blade while it’s clamped in the iKon Tech. The Llambda Athena razor looks to have an extremely well clapped blade as every one of the open teeth serves as part of the blade clamping while the top holds the blade towards the edge. The Athena appears to allow shallower angle shaves while being open comb. overall the Llambda Athena looks like it might be a great razor. I have never tried adjustable razors, as adjustable razors just allow steeper angle shaves. I think a good adjustable may be one that adjusts the guard, not the cap.
- Thread starter
- #36
I hope you mean a straight razor. If one attempts to shave with a wide open flimsy blade, they are asking for trouble. I’m not saying one can’t be in tune enough with the open flimsy blade in order to get a great shave. I’m just saying if one wants an open blade, they should probably use a straight razor.
I was once having a meal with a bunch of friends while the drinks were flowing. One guy, for an unknown reason, bit his wine cup. We all looked at him in horror while he started chewing on the glass. To all our astonishment, when he opened his mouth and spat out the chewed up glass, there was not a single cut in his mouth. I have another story where a friend of mine punched through a glass. The glass shattered and his hand was unscathed. Another friend, attempting to match the first feat, punched another glass. The second glass remained intact, yet he sustained a deep hand wound. The point is, maybe some could perform amazing feats without getting hurt. Most of us will prefer to play thing safe.
I mean either a straight razor or a replaceable blade straight; the latter are my weapon of choice for most shaves. I use only the ones that take AC blades, except for one Weck. I don't advocate for replaceable blade straights that take DE blades; they are usable, but the blades don't have enough structural integrity.
@esee, you have a point with the angle. I found 20 deg to be much better in terms of smoothness and efficiency than 30 and 40 deg.
If you want to learn more, go through this thread:
www.badgerandblade.com
I think it might help you to answer your questions, or at least get a better understanding.
If you want to learn more, go through this thread:
Understanding DE safety razor parameters
Hi guys, Even though I’ve been here on the forum for a while now, this is my very first post. I’m glad to join the B&B community! I switched to wet shaving around a year ago and like many of you, got a bit geeky about it too. Over the past months I read many topics on various DE razors and got...
www.badgerandblade.com
I think it might help you to answer your questions, or at least get a better understanding.
- Thread starter
- #39
Great thread by the way@esee, you have a point with the angle. I found 20 deg to be much better in terms of smoothness and efficiency than 30 and 40 deg.
If you want to learn more, go through this thread:
Understanding DE safety razor parameters
Hi guys, Even though I’ve been here on the forum for a while now, this is my very first post. I’m glad to join the B&B community! I switched to wet shaving around a year ago and like many of you, got a bit geeky about it too. Over the past months I read many topics on various DE razors and got...
I think it might help you to answer your questions, or at least get a better understanding.
You are probably right about the optimal shaving angle being closer to 20° over 10°. I initially assumed a 10° optimal shaving plane angle because I believed that razor blades bevels are around 10°. I have taken no bevel angle measurements yet, but I plan too soon. However, other published data shows that most razor blades are have a bevel between 15° and 25°, with feather blades sharpened to between 13° and 14°. If these bevel angles are correct, then the optimal shaving angle is probably closer to 20°. This is assuming that the optimal shaving plan is at or a few degrees steeper than the bevel angle.
Your findings brought a new thought into my head. If the bevel angle can change the optimal shaving plane, then the razor’s optimal shaving plane will affect which razor blade works best with that razor.
Unfortunately, I think it will be impossible to verify it by testing. Razor blades vary in bevel angles, sharpness, dimensions, etc.
I measured thoroughly 14 different razor brands, and while the nominal width of a razor is 22.00 mm, in reality, depending on the razor, it varies from 21.90 till 22.20 mm.
And to be honest, I think the width of a razor blade has much bigger influence on shaving experience than the shaving angle, since it may change the blade exposure drastically.
