Honing PSA

[Doc226]

I received a wedge style razor for honing, the blade looked ok and had a smallish bevel when I looked through the loupe.

I placed one layer of tape on the spine and proceeded to hone on a chosera 1K stone, after a few laps I took another look through the loupe and I saw that my scratches were at least 2-2.5mm away from the edge. I would guess the last person who tried to hone this razor either did it free hand or used at least 4-5 layers of tape.

Here is the blade in question after about 45 of honing on the 1K, changing the tape often



At this point I was still not getting a bevel and decided to calculate the bevel angle.

The spine is 6.1 to 6.3
Edge to thickest part of spine is 17.3 to 15.3

Bevel angle without tape at the thinnest spine and largest blade is 20.3
One layer 21.7

Here are some scope pics of the bevel



As you can see there is still work to be done to get a clean bevel.

I am afraid even with a clean bevel this razor will not shave well given it has a bevel angle of 21.7 in the middle and 24.6 at the toe and heel.

The PSA part of the threat is to calculate the bevel angle, DO NOT just throw on tape because you are having trouble getting a nice bevel.

 

[kcb5150]

Ugh....

 

[Jnatcat]

Hmmmm I have never looked at how to figure out bevel angles to spine so what's the formula ?

 

[eKretz]

I've got an old wedge that shaves pretty good right at 20°, never tried one closer to 25° though. Good PSA!

 

[Doc226]

I had a few guys PM me and ask for clarification

I have found out after honing many razors that adding tape to a spine is rarely the solution. I have honed an early PRC that needed two layers-they changed the thickness of the spine and now only one layer is needed. I honed a Ken Power that also needed a thicker tape.

Most if not all vintage blades DO NOT need more tape.

This razor I was honing actually needs to have the spine thinned significantly to get in the correct angle.

Right now it is too hing.

The problem is a lot of honers see that when honing a wedge they are not getting to the bevel, adding more tape increases the angle and makes it easier to get a bevel, the problem is they end up with a razor that just doesn't shave well.

It takes a lot of time to get a bevel on a wedge with no tape or one layer, there is just that more more metal to remove.

 

[Lmarkow]

View attachment 711231

 

[Doc226]

View attachment 711231

We will find out soon

 

[Slash McCoy]

I hate it when that happens. Good luck with it.

I have usually found wedges to be thin enough to tolerate a layer of tape at the finish, for a microbevel, and sometimes they are so acute that I have to use two layers. I don't think I have ever measured one that was that obtuse. Me, I don't know if I would even try it. I predict that the shave will be so so, at best, even though I know you are good at getting the best out of a blade. Please post your impressions after the obligatory shave test.

I will add this to my list of reasons why I just don't care for wedges.

 

[RaiserLiebe]

Hmmmm I have never looked at how to figure out bevel angles to spine so what's the formula ?

Here's an online calculator that gives results approx equal to OP's: http://www.calculator.net/triangle-...&vy=16.3&va=&vz=6.2&vb=&angleunits=d&x=61&y=4 I input the values for the three sidesand it gives the angles which result.
Mike
View attachment 711237

 

[SliceOfLife]

I received a wedge style razor for honing, the blade looked ok and had a smallish bevel when I looked through the loupe.

I placed one layer of tape on the spine and proceeded to hone on a chosera 1K stone, after a few laps I took another look through the loupe and I saw that my scratches were at least 2-2.5mm away from the edge. I would guess the last person who tried to hone this razor either did it free hand or used at least 4-5 layers of tape.

Here is the blade in question after about 45 of honing on the 1K, changing the tape often


I
At this point I was still not getting a bevel and decided to calculate the bevel angle.

The spine is 6.1 to 6.3
Edge to thickest part of spine is 17.3 to 15.3

Bevel angle without tape at the thinnest spine and largest blade is 20.3
One layer 21.7

Here are some scope pics of the bevel



As you can see there is still work to be done to get a clean bevel.

I am afraid even with a clean bevel this razor will not shave well given it has a bevel angle of 21.7 in the middle and 24.6 at the toe and heel.

The PSA part of the threat is to calculate the bevel angle, DO NOT just throw on tape because you are having trouble getting a nice bevel.

I post this same thread a few times a year. Noone listens. Maybe you'll convince them.

 

[kelbro]

Trig... it's not just for breakfast anymore

 

[bluesman 7]

I have honed an early PRC that needed two layers-they changed the thickness of the spine and now only one layer is needed.
.

[MENTION=44174]Doc226[/MENTION], do you recall the resulting bevel angles of these PRC razors? My taste is in the 15-16 degree range. The razor that I recently loaned to Larry is at 15.8 Deg. To me, angles approaching 20 Deg. always result in meh shaves, no matter how keen they are. YMMV

 

[Doc226]

[MENTION=44174]Doc226[/MENTION], do you recall the resulting bevel angles of these PRC razors? My taste is in the 15-16 degree range. The razor that I recently loaned to Larry is at 15.8 Deg. To me, angles approaching 20 Deg. always result in meh shaves, no matter how keen they are. YMMV

Don't recall the angle at all (doubt I even calculated it), I was informed that PRC used two layers and that's what I did.

 

[drmatt357]

I had a few guys PM me and ask for clarification

I have found out after honing many razors that adding tape to a spine is rarely the solution. I have honed an early PRC that needed two layers-they changed the thickness of the spine and now only one layer is needed. I honed a Ken Power that also needed a thicker tape.

Most if not all vintage blades DO NOT need more tape.

This razor I was honing actually needs to have the spine thinned significantly to get in the correct angle.

Right now it is too hing.

The problem is a lot of honers see that when honing a wedge they are not getting to the bevel, adding more tape increases the angle and makes it easier to get a bevel, the problem is they end up with a razor that just doesn't shave well.

It takes a lot of time to get a bevel on a wedge with no tape or one layer, there is just that more more metal to remove.

Great post Al.
I'm tired of hearing how sacred a vintage razor is and should NEVER put hone wear on it. Just keep throwing layers of tape at it.

One guy told me that his rule is 1mm wide bevel needs 1 layer of tape. 2mm wide is 2 layers and so on. I asked why and he said that all the "obvious wear" thinned out the spine so it needs tape.

I asked, why don't you just mic it?[emoji33]

 

[Steve56]

Applause gentlemen, it's so refreshing to hear what amounts to 'Don't use tape unless the bevel angle needs it.'

So let me throw another one at you @Doc226 and @drmatt357. Many times if there are chips, pits, etc on an old razor bevel, people will advise to use 1-2 layers of tape to remove the defects then pull the tape and reset the bevel, the is idea is again to reduce spinewear.

I have two problems with this idea and I believe the logic is faulty. One, if I really reduce spinewear I increase the bevel angle which I should not do without first measuring the bevel angle. Two, if I grind out the defects with tape then reset the bevel without tape, I have a feeling the spinewear is the same either way actually, because I am starting out without tape honing up on the shoulder of the bevel, and the spine has to wear to 'agree' to where the new bevel apex is. In other words, if the apex of the bevel at the end of honing is in the same place using tape or not using tape, the spine thickness should be the same?

Cheers, Steve

 

[drmatt357]

In other words, if the apex of the bevel at the end of honing is in the same place using tape or not using tape, the spine thickness should be the same?

Cheers, Steve

Wouldn't the spine be thinner if you don't use tape VS protecting it from dreaded hone wear?

IMO if you have chips or pitting on the edge and really need to remove a bit of the edge, this would be all the more reason to NOT tape the spine because it would create a much larger differential between blade width/spine thickness therefore greater negative geometry change.

Some will make a case that regular maintenance of the edge with tape on the spine so minutely affects the geometry, it doesn't matter (unless you take years of doing this into account). I just think that tape is a hassle and would rather not have one more thing to do.

Merry Christmas[emoji319]

 

[Slash McCoy]

Lots of clear thinking here!

With a very thin razor I usually try to hone up to the finish without tape, and add tape for the finish only. The resulting microbevel is durable, sharp, and easily maintained.

Edge repair in particular grinds away significant steel from the edge.if you do not prevent edge wear, you should not prevent spine wear. This from a purely practical viewpoint. I understand the desire to preserve the razor cosmetically, but this would perhaps best be accomplished by never using the razor in question at all.

 

[Steve56]

Slash,

'if you do not prevent edge wear, you should not prevent spine wear'.

I agree sir!

Cheers, Steve

 

[Luecke2326]

This was my razor, I decided to call her dead and move on. It was a great learning lesson in buying razors. Thank you Alfredo for your diligence! Best wishes to all of you awesome hone meisters who are keeping the craft alive!