First honing questions

[rhgg2]

So, I just honed up a vintage razor, my first ever full honing. By the looks of it, it had never been honed before. Here it is after cleaning, before honing:

Look ma, no bevel!

So, I set a bevel on a Shapton 1k GS and took it through 3k, 10k GS and 0.85u G7. It passed all the tests I tried and shaved, not fantastically but pretty good for a first try, except for the fact I didn't hone right to the end of the toe which, I now discover, I use quite a lot.

The thing is that the bevel is super narrow. On the show side it's thin and relatively consistent:

but on the plain side there are points near the centre where there is basically no bevel at all, just the edge:

These bits seem to shave fine, but it seems a bit odd. Is this somehow bad? Should I try to correct it in some way? More pressure in bevel setting? Just grind away for longer on the 1k til the bevels get bigger?

I think possibly there is a bit of a warp (banana shape). On the show side it doesn't sit flat on the stone and I need a slight rolling X stroke to hit the whole bevel. The plain side looks like it sits flat. So maybe the plain side is concave where the bevel is really thin. I could try honing that part on the corner of the stone. However I feel like the spine wear pattern is not consistent with this interpretation.

To be clear, the bevel is set all the way down even in the bit with the ultra thin bevel, and it shaves pretty okay. It just looks weird to me.

Any thoughts?

 

[Rick1500]

Until more experienced ppl respond, I'll say you may need to get a permanent marker and highlight the bevel on both sides then do a couple of light passes on the 1k to see how the blade is laying on the stone.
Of course this will make you start over again but with my limited experience I'm not certain you achieved a proper set bevel.
I'm sure I'm about to learn some more as ppl come in.

 

[rhgg2]

I think in this case by definition I can hit all the bevel you see here because there was no bevel before, it was basically a vintage butter knife.

My other thought is that logically a razor on its initial honing would have really thin bevels until you have honed away enough metal to get into the curvature of the grind a bit.

 

[Rick1500]

I'd be interested to know what the bevel angle is at this time.
As far as thin bevels go I'm not sure. My rigarazor has a very small bevel and my vintage razors vary.
Most that I check are around 16°, I'd have to check the rigarazor to remember that one.

I use the burr method to set my bevels (it's just the easiest and most consistent way for me) and I can't recall getting a good bevel on any that have been similar to your pics.

I look forward to hearing other's thoughts on your post.
Since you're enjoying the shave it seems like you'd be deciding on how it looks. Any more of a bevel and the spline will start showing more wear.

 

[*stefan*]

My guess is it has a banana shape lengthwise.
It is easy to hone a frown then take away too much in the middle area on one side but you seem to have avoided that.

Where you have the narrow bevel is probably (in this case) when the razor curve shape is up away from the hone.
And in some areas the bevel is rather wide, probably because of some pressure during the bevel set.

The toe and heel area took most of the load and the blade deflected a bit making the middle possible to just reach the hone.
The easiest way to deal would be to use a narrow hone on this side but it would need narrow hones through all progression I guess.

Is it possible when you used higher and lower pressure that you didn't manage to hit this area with a narrow bevel and it got less sharp( in this case)?

 

[Wid]

Be mindful of the stabilizer. Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like you are very close to honing on the stabilizer. Some razors have wonky bevels, they are ground uneven. I personally don't worry about it.

For now leave it alone if it's shaving good. Being a new honer it would be wise to tape the spine to keep the wear down.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

These bits seem to shave fine, but it seems a bit odd. Is this somehow bad?

No, it just means the blade has a little bit of a warp which is pretty common. You can also see that the width of the wear on the spine varies quite a bit, suggests the same thing. More pressure will cause more problems, grinding away excessively to even it out won't make it shave better. As long as you're hitting the whole edge you're golden. A carefully executed rolling X stroke will accomplish this, although it's not quite as straightforward as honing an unwarped blade with a consistent smile. A narrower hone makes it easier too.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The heel needs correction, (Red Arrow current heel corner) to move the heel corner away from the stabilizer. It is an easy fix, 5 minutes on a diamond plate. (Move corner to Blue Arrow, away from Stabilizer)

You are honing on the stabilizer, (Note wear marks on the stabilizer corner Green Arrow) that will lift the heel half of the razor off the stone preventing full contact. Most folks use more pressure trying to force the heel onto the stone and it causes wonky uneven bevels and excessive spine wear.

The razor does appear to have a bit of a frown near the heel and a sharp, pointed heel. If you do not correct the heel both will get worse, a sharp heel will eventually turn into a hook that can cut you.

The razor also likely has some warp, not uncommon most razors have some, yours is very slight and will hone easily with a rolling X stroke. One side is convex, show side. The other is concave, back side. Roll down on the concave side, drop the heel off the stone and up on the convex side lift the heel slightly. The amount of lift and or drop is a millimeter or so.

To hone the toe, you will need to lift the heel slightly on both sides, the heel is fully honed with a heel leading stroke.

Mark the bevel with Sharpie and that will tell you how much to lift or drop.

While it is not a super collectable, there is no need to needlessly trash the razor. Tape the spine while learning to hone, many a nice razor has been abused by new honers using low grit stones with too much pressure for way too many laps. Once you have mastered honing, then decide if you want to continue to hone on tape.

0000 steel wool and any good metal polish will remove rust spots on the blade. You want to remove all active rust so you do not contaminate your strop.

Here is a post on how to correct a heel. (HEEL CORRECTION – REPROFILING Made easy.)

 

[rhgg2]

Thanks, all. I ground the heel back a bit and reset the bevel from the toe to the heel.

The spine wear you see happened very quickly at the start of honing, and the bevel set super quick as well. I did stay on the 1k for a while due to some chips in the edge near the toe that took a while to hone past. The spine wear didn't seem to change much at all over this time, so I figure my pressure must have ended up okay.

The part where the bevel is thinnest on the plain side which everyone agrees is probably concave I didn't have any luck hitting more fully with a downward rolling stroke. But just a plain X stroke hits it as is, and a normal rolling stroke does the other side nicely. So I figure I can be happy with that.

Started the 3k but have more work to do making sure I got all the striations out and got the toe and heel fully. It will be a few days before I have a chance to finish it. Seems promising though!

 

[rhgg2]

So, I have another question.

Given a smiling edge (as mine is at toe, and at the new heel curve I ground), I think it is true that the bevel angle in the smiling part must be more obtuse. What is certainly true is the smiling part of the bevel does not reflect light in the same plane; one must tilt slightly.

I presume the ideal situation is that, as one tilts, the part of the bevel which is illuminated changes smoothly. When I observe my bevel, there is more of a step change. I presume this indicates that my roll is not very smooth, ie I am not smoothly lowering the raised toe at the start of the stroke or raising the heel at the end. Does this matter very much? I mean I suppose everything matters at some level but is this worth expending effort in addressing?

 

[JPO]

So, I have another question.

Given a smiling edge (as mine is at toe, and at the new heel curve I ground), I think it is true that the bevel angle in the smiling part must be more obtuse. What is certainly true is the smiling part of the bevel does not reflect light in the same plane; one must tilt slightly.

I presume the ideal situation is that, as one tilts, the part of the bevel which is illuminated changes smoothly. When I observe my bevel, there is more of a step change. I presume this indicates that my roll is not very smooth, ie I am not smoothly lowering the raised toe at the start of the stroke or raising the heel at the end. Does this matter very much? I mean I suppose everything matters at some level but is this worth expending effort in addressing?

It really does not take much to blend the transition at the toe. If you do this with the stone in hand, it is probably easier in my opinion. I have never been that good at bench honing, so i hone every razor in hand. That is just a personal preference.
To me it seems like the razor is gradually being honed from a smiling profile to a straight edge. If this continues a frawn might start to develop.
If you concentrate on the heel and toe, the middle part will usually not be a problem. If you go up and down the stone flat the middle will get more ware.
The water should run like up like a ripple over, and along the bevel as you shift the pressure and torque, starting from the heel to the toe.
You can also use short strokes and hone the blade in section, ending with some blending rolling x-strokes.

I prefer to shape the bevel to avoid having difficult areas at e.g. the toe. That means that the toe is not the issue. More material needs to removed before the tow, to create a smoother transition. Sometimes this is not practical if the tow is too worn though.

 

[rhgg2]

Thanks! It seems like there are really two kinds of rolling X strokes. One there is actual active lift at the extremes. The other is just in your mind imagining the pressure and torque moving and it magically happening. I am trying to do the latter as a matter of course and the former where the profile warrants it. Now I have determined that continued strokes on the 1k are not causing noticeable further spine wear I am being more fussy about moving on. I will run a bunch of blending strokes to smooth the bevel angle transition.

Famous last words, but the bevel being set part seems less mysterious than I expected. From visual inspection, thumbnail test and thumbpad test it seems pretty clear when it is and isn't. I think this is probably a great starter razor I found, enough challenge to keep me learning but fairly compliant and not so out of whack as to be a total nightmare.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“When I observe my bevel, there is more of a step change. I presume this indicates that my roll is not very smooth, ie I am not smoothly lowering the raised toe at the start of the stroke or raising the heel at the end. Does this matter very much? I mean I suppose everything matters at some level but is this worth expending effort in addressing?”

Yup, it matters. I shave daily with the whole edge, heel, and toe, so the entire edge needs to be honed fully.

The edge is not really a smiling edge, a smiling razor has a much more pronounced curved edge. This is a rounded toe razor. While the honing technique is similar to honing a smiling razor it is not the same.

To hone a rounded toe ink the whole bevel, Ink on the bevel will show you where you are making contact and you can adjust your stroke and lift of the heel, by how the ink is removed.

Start with the razor flat on the 1k hone then about a ¼ of the stroke begin lifting the heel slowly and evenly while doing an X stroke from corner to opposing corner, actually more of a reversed J. At the end of the stroke look at the toe and see where ink is removed.

Re-ink the bevel and adjust your stroke until you are removing ink about a quarter of the toe radius, note how much you need to lift the heel. Keep honing the toe until you have ground a bevel even with the bevel of middle of the razor and that the bevels are meeting fully on the toe, (no shiny reflection when looking straight down on the edge). Hone about a third of the radius of the toe.

The trick is to evenly and smoothly raise the heel during the stroke, so that you end at the same height with each stroke. Once you have cut an even bevel continue honing with lighter pressure to refine the stria pattern.

To hone the heel, start with a heel forward stroke at about a 45 degree, do a full straight stroke and bring the toe around so you end with the edge perpendicular to the edge of the stone, that will hone the heel radius.

I cut the bevels in 3 parts, first hone the middle, then the heel and lastly the toe. It should not take many laps to hone the heel and toe, perhaps 5-15 strokes each.

Once you have nice bevels on the heel and toe, blend the 3 bevels with strokes starting heel leading, swing the toe around to hone the middle and swing the toe with the toe around further, lifting the heel to the required amount so the whole edge is honed in a single stroke, from heel to toe. This will blend the 3 facets into a single even edge. It should not take many laps to blend the whole edge, go slowly and smoothly.

Once you have an even 1k bevel hone the middle with the stones in the progression until you remove the 1k stria, then hone the heel and the toe separately and end blending the three facets again at each stone in progression.

It sounds more complicated than it is, when blending you do not want to use a lot of pressure, the points in need of blending are small and thin.

Ink is cheap and easy to apply, I like using colored ink, red or blue, it is much easier to see even without magnification, black can look like a shadow.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“ It seems like there are really two kinds of rolling X strokes. One there is actual active lift at the extremes. The other is just in your mind imagining the pressure and torque moving and it magically happening.”

Yes, the “Roll” on a smiling edge is more of a pressure shift, on some razors all you need do, is think about it and your hands do the rest.

I visualize a marble on the belly of the blade, and I try to roll the marble evenly from heel to toe as the razor progresses up or down the stone.

Honing heels and toes are a bit different as the curve you are honing is more of a radius, so you need to lift more.

I mostly use straight strokes to hone, the AX Method. You can fully set most bevels in a set or two.

It is good practice to always finish with X strokes to avoid honing a frown. When honing heels and toes try not to use too much pressure as the amount of steel in contact is very small, you can remove steel quickly.

Again, ink on the bevels will help you see where steel is coming off.

 

[rhgg2]

Super useful and clarifying information @H Brad Boonshaft. I had a go at being sure I had all of the heel and toe done and blending the result with the result of the bevel. The blending is pretty easy and quick! Got it looking nice and even on the 1k and have repeated all the steps on the 3k. I caved and got the 6k HR stone so tomorrow will flatten that and move on to the next step.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Here is an excellent video of Charlie Lewis, Lewis Razor honing one of his smiling edges. Lewis razors have a pronounced smiling edge, much more than most razors. But note how little the heel comes off the stone to hone the toe, about 2mm.

Also note the smoothness of the stroke and evenness of the lift. As I said it is not that difficult, it is more technique.

(Honing A Smiling Straight Razor Blade)

 

[Mr Bedlington]

Looking at the bevels, I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that your razor has a warped spine. Concaved on the side with barely any bevel and convexed on the side with a bevel.

 

[JPO]

All new German razors I have honed have this typical shape to some degree. I don’t own a single razor that I can mindlessly go flat up and down the hone with.
I know I can flatten the spine and match the edge. However, there is no need to do that.
The easiest fix is to use a rolling stroke and hone to a sublte smile. You don't even need to lift either the toe or the heal. All you need is some biased torque.
There is no such thing as a perfectly straight bevel.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I mean, you could I suppose grind a scientific straight edge into a knife? But yeah practically... you can get by without realizing you're doing it if your razor is especially close to perfectly straight... but there's always SOME amount of following the razors curve involved... even if it's so subtle you don't notice it... and in many cases it's so extreme that guys would switch to the side or even the corner of their stones to make it easier to do (part of the reason some guys prefer 1", 1.5" or 2" wide razor hones over 3" ones... and honestly probably part of the reason some guys like convex hones these days).

 

[JPO]

honestly probably part of the reason some guys like convex hones these days).

I like to use convex stones sometimes. Geometry issues is not on the list of why i use them. However, all the bevel work and early midrange work is done on flat stones.