Hone for beginner

[richmondesi]

Sorry
I tried to find "Kosher" in dictionary but did not get a proper translation. I am not a native english speaker. I do not fully understand your comment. Can you clarify?


Thanks again

It's a Hebraic concept from the Hebrew word "Kasher" meaning proper or pure.

Bart wrote an excellent article Kosher Coticules over at Coticule.be

What's the deal on "Kosher" Coticules? Do they really perform better than the rest of them?

 

[motero57]

Thanks richmondesi. Now I got it !!
Also thanks for the link.

 

[Chimensch]

Sorry
I tried to find "Kosher" in dictionary but did not get a proper translation. I am not a native english speaker. I do not fully understand your comment. Can you clarify?


Thanks again

Kosher refers to Jewish dietary laws which also specify how animals are to be slaughtered. I believe that Kosher coticules were high-quality stones used by the Jewish butchers to sharpen their knives.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I am no expert on Kosher, but I vaguely recall that tools used in slaughter could not touch the ground either, so Kosher might also imply something as simple as not stacking the stones on the ground after they've been cut.

 

[Bart]

Coticules run in the Earth's crust as small layers of pale rock, sandwiched between massive amounts of Blue rock (BBW).
During the production process the raw slabs are painstakingly selected, cut and processed to deliver uniform and structural integral hones. But they don't all turn out completely perfect. Sometimes small cracks are present at the narrow side of the Cocitule slice. Sometimes the glue lines are uneven. Many combination stones have thin layers of blue interlocked in the yellow part. (this is actually always the case in the celebrated "La Petite Blanche" layer).

Because of this reason, Coticules that look as if the buyer might not be perfectly happy when he compares it to one that appears perfect, are offered as "standard" quality at reduced price. Or, the other "select" ones are offered at increased price, depending on how to look at it.

This has no single repercussion on the properties of the hones, as they are not selected according to abrasive properties (that might change in the future). Furthermore, it always has been my experience that Coticules all are capable of delivering smooth edges within a very close range. The differences are much smaller than those typically introduced by difference between various razors, attributed to steel composition and heat treatment.
But, as been mentioned several times already, not every Coticule demands the same approach. There are differences in honing speed when slurry is used. Slurry is needed for speed, but it never yields the sharpest possible keenness that can be reached on a Coticule. There are very significant difference in the way the slurry limits the edge. I call this effect: "slurry-dulling". The edge sharpens to a given limit for the given slurry density. At that point you can hone till you've reached the spine, never will the razor become any sharper. Slower Coticules usually display less slurry-dulling than faster ones, albeit there are exceptions. Hence there will be different amounts of keenness to make up for, during the rest of the honing procedure. But eventually all Coticules arrive (on water only) at the same point: a smooth and sufficiently keen edge.

None of these properties can be predicted by buying "select" or "standard" quality. The actual layer a stone was extracted from (they all carry names), can tell more about the properties. Some layers are very consistent for the hones they deliver. Other layers show a greater variance.

Best regards,
Bart.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Someone's going to have to go through this thread, extract all Barts posts and turn them into a coticule sticky.

 

[richmondesi]

Someone's going to have to go through this thread, extract all Barts posts and turn them into a coticule sticky.

Not necessary.. we have links to his website all over the place

 

[Proinsias]

Great thread, thank you very much to everyone who has contributed.

I've recently bought a Chinese 12k with slurry stone as it was too cheap not to buy, £12 delivered from open razor - my first razor hone. I have a shave ready straight on the way from Neil Miller, a razor currently being sharpened by Bart and another on the way from Larry in the B/S/T.

I plan on buying a coticule in the future, and I've got my eye on a few other stones.

I've got a pasted paddle strop, diamond pastes and some cro ox.

I'm thinking I'd like to avoid the pastes for a bit and concentrate on the stones.

Can I keep myself going with the Chinese 12k with a bit of slurry and 4 shave ready straights for a while?

After buying it I read Joel's post from a while back and now I'm thinking it may not have been the best choice.

 

[richmondesi]

Considering that was back in '06, I'd not hold Joel to that comment.

 

[Ru4scuba?]

Coticules run in the Earth's crust as small layers of pale rock, sandwiched between massive amounts of Blue rock (BBW).
During the production process the raw slabs are painstakingly selected, cut and processed to deliver uniform and structural integral hones. But they don't all turn out completely perfect. Sometimes small cracks are present at the narrow side of the Cocitule slice. Sometimes the glue lines are uneven. Many combination stones have thin layers of blue interlocked in the yellow part. (this is actually always the case in the celebrated "La Petite Blanche" layer).

Because of this reason, Coticules that look as if the buyer might not be perfectly happy when he compares it to one that appears perfect, are offered as "standard" quality at reduced price. Or, the other "select" ones are offered at increased price, depending on how to look at it.

This has no single repercussion on the properties of the hones, as they are not selected according to abrasive properties (that might change in the future). Furthermore, it always has been my experience that Coticules all are capable of delivering smooth edges within a very close range. The differences are much smaller than those typically introduced by difference between various razors, attributed to steel composition and heat treatment.
But, as been mentioned several times already, not every Coticule demands the same approach. There are differences in honing speed when slurry is used. Slurry is needed for speed, but it never yields the sharpest possible keenness that can be reached on a Coticule. There are very significant difference in the way the slurry limits the edge. I call this effect: "slurry-dulling". The edge sharpens to a given limit for the given slurry density. At that point you can hone till you've reached the spine, never will the razor become any sharper. Slower Coticules usually display less slurry-dulling than faster ones, albeit there are exceptions. Hence there will be different amounts of keenness to make up for, during the rest of the honing procedure. But eventually all Coticules arrive (on water only) at the same point: a smooth and sufficiently keen edge.

None of these properties can be predicted by buying "select" or "standard" quality. The actual layer a stone was extracted from (they all carry names), can tell more about the properties. Some layers are very consistent for the hones they deliver. Other layers show a greater variance.

Best regards,
Bart.

Wow...this just answered a question I had in the..."just one hone" thread. Thanks so much Sir!

 

[motero57]

I have used the Naniwa stones extensively and would also recommend you consider getting Shapton Glass stones before you get Naniwa.

Ray

It seems that they are not available in Europe

 

[motero57]

My friends,

YOU HAVE TO SEE THIS VIDEO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXkjXfuNbpg



jejeje

 

[Bart]

It seems that they are not available in Europe

http://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-stones.html

 

[motero57]

Thanks Bart. I knew this website, but those are not the Shapton Glass stones.

This is the Glass stone:
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm

motero57

 

[Bart]

I know, but they both get high praise. I have no experience with them, but allegedly the glass-base hones and the professional line perform about the same.

Here's a German seller of the Shapton glass base hones.
http://www.dick.biz/dick/product/711602/detail.jsf

 

[Chimensch]

I know, but they both get high praise. I have no experience with them, but allegedly the glass-base hones and the professional line perform about the same.

Here's a German seller of the Shapton glass base hones.
http://www.dick.biz/dick/product/711602/detail.jsf

On the subject of Dick, in their section of natural hones, they have an Awaseto Honyama Japanese natural stone that works really well as a finisher and the price is incredibly cheap, just Euro 29,50. It's also worth getting the nagura stone in the same section.

 

[hunter87597]

I need a finishing hone as well. 8k grit is not getting her done.

 

[richmondesi]

I need a finishing hone as well. 8k grit is not getting her done.

may be a bevel issue though... the best finishing hone in the world won't make up for a poorly set bevel, and an 8K should be good enough to get comfortable shaves off of if used properly. Are you sure that's the issue?

 

[redwoolf]

When using a BBW is it advised to use a BBW slurry stone, or is it advised to use a coticule slurry stone?

There are these combo slurry stones available that may fit the bill when using Bart's three stone Diamond/BBW/Coticule method.

 

[Chimensch]

When using a BBW is it advised to use a BBW slurry stone, or is it advised to use a coticule slurry stone?

There are these combo slurry stones available that may fit the bill when using Bart's three stone Diamond/BBW/Coticule method.

I happen to have a BBW slurry stone to use on the blue side of my combo hone but I don't see any reason why you couldn't create a BBW slurry with a piece of abrasive paper or a diamond hone.