Hand tools to re-learning straights

[Shibsky]

Hey B&B —

I just posted a note in the newbie forum this past week re-introducing myself after a 15 year break from B&B, SRP, and my Dovo. I’m now trying to figure out how to transfer sharpening that I’ve learned for a woodshop into sharpening my straight razor.

I use 1k, 3k/8k, and 10k Ohishi waterstones on my plane irons and chisels with a bit of a light stop on the old Heirloom Strop Co. latigo (undressed) or a hit on a sharpening supplies two-sided strop with green applied. I can get a shaving sharpness on chisels I finish on my Tormek, but haven’t ever been able to get the plane irons quite there on the stone/stop progression. I suspect it’s not enough confidence stropping to the secondary 30° bevel means I’m only hitting the primary 25°.

Should I be able to get a shave-ready razor with that setup? Should I add in a glassstone or something >10k grit, or maybe a pasted strop?

And on the Dovo — should be taping the spine? Looks like Scapa tape is the recommendation? The bevel on my dovo doesn’t need a ton of work but probably just enough that I’m ok re-setting it for future maintenance.

Thanks all!

 

[rbscebu]

You will get lots of different advice here on honing a SR. By all means consider it but you need to develop a honing technique that suits you and your budget.

Basically, the skills that you have developed in woodshop sharpening will not transfer well into SR honing. SRs generally don't have primary and secondary bevels. With SRs you are dealing with a bevel angle of about 17°± (that's about 8½° each side). Shaving arm hair is nowhere near good enough for shaving facial whiskers.

It takes time, patience and practice to develop good SR honing skills. Don't be put off. It can be an enjoyable journey and very satisfying when you get to where you produce and maintain your own edge that is comfortable to shave with.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I’m now trying to figure out how to transfer sharpening that I’ve learned for a woodshop into sharpening my straight razor.”

“I use 1k, 3k/8k, and 10k Ohishi waterstones on my plane irons and chisels with a bit of a light stop on the old Heirloom Strop Co. latigo. Maybe with a few changes.”

Using the same stone face for tools, knives and razors is generally not a good idea unless you lap the stone face completely flat prior to razor use. Tools and knives tear up stone faces and will need to be refaced or use one side for tools and the other for razors, both sides will need to be lapped.

A strop used for tools and knives may have a lot of steel in it and a separate strop for razors may be needed. A razor strop is used to put a pristine finish on razor bevels and edge, is strop and technique dependent.

Yes, some tools can be the same, but the goal and technique are very different. Folks that approach razor honing like tool or knife sharpening have a difficult time with the transition.

First get some magnification, a $15 Carson Micro Brite 60-100X will show you what is going on with your razor bevel and edge. Look straight down on the edge to see what your razor needs and when the bevels are meeting fully.

Stropping on “Green” polishing compound of unknown grit will not deliver a comfortable shaving edge. You will need pure Chromium Oxide.

Getting to sharp is easy, Keen and Comfortable is another story.

Google (Second Try at honing) a step-by-step post of a new honer taking an eBay beater to super shaver, with great micrographs. Make your bevels and edges match his at each stone and you will get to a shaving edge.

 

[Shibsky]

This is all great input! Thank you.

Basically, the skills that you have developed in woodshop sharpening will not transfer well into SR honing. SRs generally don't have primary and secondary bevels. With SRs you are dealing with a bevel angle of about 17°± (that's about 8½° each side). Shaving arm hair is nowhere near good enough for shaving facial whiskers.

@rbscebu — interesting on the difference between arm hair and facial hair. Point very well taken. I’m trying to read up on the different approaches, including with the interactive guide, but still struggling a bit to know where to start in order to try learning. Do you think the setup I have now is good enough to practice?

Using the same stone face for tools, knives and razors is generally not a good idea unless you lap the stone face completely flat prior to razor use. Tools and knives tear up stone faces and will need to be refaced or use one side for tools and the other for razors, both sides will need to be lapped.

A strop used for tools and knives may have a lot of steel in it and a separate strop for razors may be needed. A razor strop is used to put a pristine finish on razor bevels and edge, is strop and technique dependent.

@H Brad Boonshaft — Ok, got it. I’ll say that I’m generally pretty diligent about keeping the stones flat with a DMT diamond lapping plate, but understood that the tolerances are different.

And RE: Chromium Oxide — is there a vendor this forum tends to like? Same question for taping the spine, too.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yes, mods frown on linking other shaving sites…

I use Kramer Pigments for natural paste, they are 100% pure, mix a small amount of powder, with a few drops of mineral oil and apply in 3-inch Xs to a strop. Once a strop is pasted, it can never be completely removed. There are other sites, if it does not say 100% Chrome Oxide, it is generally not.

For experimentation paste the inside of a cereal box cut into 12X3 inch strips.

You can certainly lap the stones flat, but I find it a hassle, I too sharpen tools, knives and hone razor, and found it much simpler to use different stones. A knife tip or tool edge can scare a stone deeply.

If you find difficulty with your razor edges, I would suspect the stone face, grit mark the stone with pencil and remove the grid several times. Slurry will wash off the grid and the stone is nowhere flat. It is flat once the grid is removed in 10 laps or less. I use a 140-diamond plate for lapping flat and a 600 for removing swarf, two very different things.

I tape with electrical tape (brand does not matter) and eBay Kapton tape over the electrical. The Kapton will last much longer, when you feel it burn through just replace the Kapton. A cheap tape dispenser will make your life so much easier, thin Kapton likes to stick to itself.

 

[Gamma]

I use 1k, 3k/8k, and 10k Ohishi waterstones

Should I be able to get a shave-ready razor with that setup?

Maybe, depends on your skills, and shaving needs. Some people want finer edges than a typical 10k finish provides. Test, see what you get. Add stones when you know what you need. What other people think you need has no bearing on your reality. A lot will depend on where your stones really stack up in the sense of grit. I didn't fine Ohishi stones to be rated equally, so like their 8k was less fine to me than a Naniwa Superstone 8k. But what matters is how your edges turn out, in your opinion. Learn first, spend later.

Should I add in a glassstone or something >10k grit, or maybe a pasted strop?

See above - a lot of people keep a pasted strop around but not everyone likes the feeling of an edge finished on paste. You have to decide for yourself, the preferences of others has no bearing on your own.

And on the Dovo — should be taping the spine? Looks like Scapa tape is the recommendation?

I use 3M 1700 Temflex, or Super 33, or Super 88. They wear well and are consistent in dimension from batch to batch. I suppose any good brand of tape that lasts and doesn't leave residue embedded in the stone is fine, but I stick with those 3 because those are the tapes I have tested endlessly.
Unless you have geometry issues, or need to protect fancy work, gold wash, etc - you won't NEED to use tape on any spine.
You may want to, for some reason, like reducing hone wear. But that wear is integral to maintaining bevel angle. If you are only going to hone it once, a layer of tape probably won't have much impact.

 

[JPO]

Compounds and abrasive sprays act differently on different substrates. I have always had the best results with a fabric or a balsa wood substrate. Leather with a little nap/texture can also work. Just experiment.
Apply the compound sparingly and use light pressure. You just need even contact.
If you don't want to get more stones, there are ways to maximise your 8-10k stone, if you finish with pastes.
The last test I did was using a 6k, metal polish on denim and cbn on balsa.
If there is any interest I could update my previous thread to include an 8k stone and crox applied on balsa.

Simplified burr-based honing on a budget.

I just wanted to share my results from today's honing experiment. I wanted to test the use of what I consider a simple setup to get a good edge on a budget. My Dovo 5/8 was given a new test edge using the following equipment; Shapton gs hr 6k. Denim hanging strop loaded with simple metal...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Tape the spine until you master honing then decide if you want to continue using tape. Many a nice razor has been trashed, by needless grinding of the spine by a new honer.

There is no downside to honing with tape.

 

[Shibsky]

This is amazing information. Thank you all!

I also chatted with the crew over at Razor Emporium and found them to be extremely helpful. They suggested chatting with Maggard Razors when I decided to take the plunge into equipping the sharpening setup.

Part of what’s interesting to me is chatting with some commercial vendors first to hear about how they hone for their clients as an overall approach so I can figure out more about a minimum viable setup… which I assume is different for most people sending razors in for a hone versus this crew. Seems like the first step is to get to a shave ready edge reliably (skill) before starting to play around with the manner in which I produce that edge (preference).

I’ll play around a bit and drop an update in once I’ve learned some.

EDIT: And just saw the edit from the mods on my link. Sorry about that, mods!

 

[rbscebu]

@Shibsky a long but very worthwhile read:

Newbie Honing Compendium

I find myself often linking just a few threads rather than give a long winded explanation that takes me 15 minutes to type on my phone. So, here are my favorite threads to suggest that newbies read if they are interested in making their razors sharp. Lapping film, try it. Setting the Bevel...

www.badgerandblade.com