"Good" Williams - Sodium Tallowate first?

[Topgumby]

I know Williams has undergone many changes since 1840, and besides the basic mug soap, there have been luxury and menthol variations, as well as sticks, powders and creams.

Of the more recent vintage Williams pucks, is the listing of Sodium Tallowate first mark it as "old formula" Williams in your book?

I have several older pucks that start the ingredients list that way, and they certainly seem to lather easier than the current Potassium Stearate first pucks.

 

[Omnichron]

I tried a laundry soap called Zote a few days ago. The first ingredient listed was sodium tallowate with 66% fatty acid content, made some very rich lather. any thoughts?

 

[mmack66]

I tried a laundry soap called Zote a few days ago. The first ingredient listed was sodium tallowate with 66% fatty acid content, made some very rich lather. any thoughts?

Did it get your clothes clean?

 

[Sue]

Sodium tallowate is tallow (beef fat) that is now soap after saponification with lye. Sodium tallowate is the INCI name (international nomenclature).

Two forms of lye may be used to make soap. NOH for hard bars or KOH for soft soap. Sometimes a mixture of both NOH and KOH.
Sue

 

[Topgumby]

Thanks, Sue.

The soap in question used to have an ingredients list like so:

Sodium tallowate
Potassium Stearate
Sodium Cocoate
Water
Glycerin
Tetrasodium Etidronate
Pentasodium Pentatate
Fragrance
Titanium Dioxide

Then, it got reformulated (I think) and now it's

Potassium Stearate
Sodium tallowate
Sodium Cocoate
Water
Glycerin
Fragrance
Sodium Chloride
Titanium Dioxide
Stearic acid
Pentasodium Pentetate
Tetrasodium Etidronate
May also contain Sodium Palm Kernalelate

I think I have all the sodiumates in the right order, spelled right...

Anyhow, the first list of ingredients is a fairly easy to lather product. The second set of ingredients seems to give a lot of folks fits.

Is there an obvious reason for this? Could the change in ingredients be merely a change in packaging laws? Williams trivialists want to know!

 

[Omnichron]

Zote soap ingredients:


Sodium Tallowate
Sodium Cocoate
Fragance
Optical Brightener
Dye

 

[Omnichron]

Did it get your clothes clean?

terry towels are sparkling white.. no kidding!

 

[TheBigL]

I tried a laundry soap called Zote a few days ago. The first ingredient listed was sodium tallowate with 66% fatty acid content, made some very rich lather. any thoughts?

How was the shave? I bet your face was glowing with the Optical Brightener.

I've seen it and considered buying it but I wasn't really sure how to use it.

 

[ctakim]

Sodium tallowate is tallow (beef fat) that is now soap after saponification with lye. Sodium tallowate is the INCI name (international nomenclature).

Two forms of lye may be used to make soap. NOH for hard bars or KOH for soft soap. Sometimes a mixture of both NOH and KOH.
Sue

Minor correction, NaOH, i.e., sodium hydroxide.

 

[Sue]

Minor correction, NaOH, i.e., sodium hydroxide.

Picky, picky, picky . I stand corrected.
Sue

 

[Sue]

Zote soap ingredients:


Sodium Tallowate
Sodium Cocoate
Fragance
Optical Brightener
Dye

The INCI names are not on the label. Tallowate and cocoate is saponified tallow and coconut. An optical brightener is frequently titanium dioxide and dye usually is noted also by INCI such as Violet 2, or Green 5 etc. Companies with the big bux behind them can be exempted from this if they can prove damage to their "proprietary" ingredients.
Sue

 

[Sue]

Thanks, Sue.

The soap in question used to have an ingredients list like so:

Sodium tallowate
Potassium Stearate
Sodium Cocoate
Water
Glycerin
Tetrasodium Etidronate
Pentasodium Pentatate
Fragrance
Titanium Dioxide

Then, it got reformulated (I think) and now it's

Potassium Stearate
Sodium tallowate
Sodium Cocoate
Water
Glycerin
Fragrance
Sodium Chloride
Titanium Dioxide
Stearic acid
Pentasodium Pentetate
Tetrasodium Etidronate
May also contain Sodium Palm Kernalelate

I think I have all the sodiumates in the right order, spelled right...

Anyhow, the first list of ingredients is a fairly easy to lather product. The second set of ingredients seems to give a lot of folks fits.

Is there an obvious reason for this? Could the change in ingredients be merely a change in packaging laws? Williams trivialists want to know!

The amount of tallow is now second in order of predominance of ingredients.
Stearic acid has been added also.

That's how ingredients are listed, order of predominance. As far as as true recipe, it is not.

Think making a chocolate cake. The ratio of flour to bakers chocolate will be higher. But two chocolate cakes may taste very different depending on how much chocolate has been added.... but the amount of flour will always be more than the chocolate if you were to list the cake ingredients in order of predominance.

The same holds true in making a soap. If I send you the ingredients for my most superb chocolate cake as: flour, eggs, butter, dark cocoa, vanilla and Red 1, how much of each ingredient would you use.

I hope this makes sense?
Sue

 

[ctakim]

Picky, picky, picky . I stand corrected.
Sue

Sorry! I was a chemistry major in college!!

 

[ctakim]

Parenthetically, I have an old vintage puck of Williams that I got in a lot buy of razors and stuff off the Bay and I was amazed at how well it lathered compared to the modern Williams I tried from the local drug store. There is a difference in the tallow version IMHO.

 

[Sue]

Sorry! I was a chemistry major in college!!

Yeah, excuses, excuses LOL, what is this thing called "college"?
Sue

 

[Topgumby]

Parenthetically, I have an old vintage puck of Williams that I got in a lot buy of razors and stuff off the Bay and I was amazed at how well it lathered compared to the modern Williams I tried from the local drug store. There is a difference in the tallow version IMHO.

The old stuff, apparently can be subdivided further. There's "new old stuff" that has the second ingredient list, and there is an older formulation that was used up to the early 70's or late 60's, I think.

In addition, the "luxury" soap was also different, perhaps in formulation and scent. It may have retained the rose scent of very early Williams.

What I know about the stuff I've mostly learned from BobK1 and Clubman Rob. Seems a shame that there is no consolidated, detailed information on something so closely linked to American Wet Shaving.

 

[Topgumby]

To further confuse matters, there are two UPC codes in play.

322170230330 is the Tallow first stuff
011509230331 is the Potassium Stearate first stuff.

 

[Greybeard]

To further confuse matters, there are two UPC codes in play.

322170230330 is the Tallow first stuff
011509230331 is the Potassium Stearate first stuff.

Both UPCs are registered to Combe, who took over manufacturing Williams in 2002. Is it possible that Williams was reformulated by Combe and tallow was the first ingredient as recently as 2002 ?



- Peter

 

[Omnichron]

The INCI names are not on the label. Tallowate and cocoate is saponified tallow and coconut. An optical brightener is frequently titanium dioxide and dye usually is noted also by INCI such as Violet 2, or Green 5 etc. Companies with the big bux behind them can be exempted from this if they can prove damage to their "proprietary" ingredients.
Sue

ah... interesting info. I shall not try Zote again.

 

[Topgumby]

Both UPCs are registered to Combe, who took over manufacturing Williams in 2002. Is it possible that Williams was reformulated by Combe and tallow was the first ingredient as recently as 2002 ?



- Peter

I'd sure like to know what the timeline is!