great research, thanks!
Gillette Canadian Rocket TTO timeline
- Thread starter BBS-1
- Start date
I have one but no case. Picked it up at a local antique place 4 years ago.
- Thread starter
- #23
You should also be wary that it is legit without documentation when they price the sets that high.
The case might be but unless someone can show otherwise it is a mismatch. The ads show the opposite as far as razor style goes sold in this particular case. The Aristocrat Jr style razor disappears from the ads in 1950 and doesn't show up again period afterwards for Rocket adverts. Here is the underside of those blue cases.
Notice no razor made in England like the red styrene cases. This case doesn't show up far as I know until 1952. If this Rocket case was meant to house a British made razor you'd expect that printed on the case.
- Thread starter
- #24
Now that I posted this and people are pmming me and responding to the threads that is not the first instance I've seen now of that razor being in that case. I am willing to walk back that contention if someone can show proof besides I found this razor in this case so it must be correct answer. The ads show the opposite so far and the razors shown in the ads do exist.
R
romsitsa
The case only has case made in USA. So it shouldn’t contain any foreign razor, but there was no TTO production in Canada.
Adam
R
romsitsa
Sorry, but no.
What I call a gen 4 is a gen 3 in your nomenclature.
That razor, gen 4 (you call it gen 3) came in the red plastic case as did the gen 3 (you call it gen 2).
Adam
- Thread starter
- #27
- Thread starter
- #28
It says Gillette Safety razor of Canada. Case was made in the US but it is not a US Gillette case for a Super Speed set. The Super Speed style Rockets were most likely made in the US. You need to pay attention to how the razors are stamped to know if they were made for sale in the US or outside. The Rocket sets with Super Speed style razors have no made in stamps on them USA or England and also lack any patent info on the razor.
All the information says the blue cases and razors 2nd through 4th iterations for Rocket sets from 1952 - 1956 were US made but sold in Canada by Gillette of Canada.
Last edited:
I have found 2 of those and one with the Aristo Jr in BC, Canada. I have seen too many in diferent Canadian provinces too
I have found one of those razors myself. I have no clue what would be the correct case for that razor in Canada, but I have never been on a hunt for any so I can educate myself well enough.
R
romsitsa
Problem is gen 2 Aristocrat Jr.-s sold as Rockets in Canada have all of their markings, so lack of markings are not exact for ID.
As for ads, slightly off topic, there are simply no ads for gold plated gen 4 Aristocrat Jr.-s in England or anywhere else, but they exist.
Adam
R
romsitsa
And a question, does a red plastic case with razor made in the US inscription exist?
Or were US Superspeeds and British Juniors packed in the same, “razor made in England” case?
Adam
Or were US Superspeeds and British Juniors packed in the same, “razor made in England” case?
Adam
- Thread starter
- #32
I have already conceded at least in 1950 there were most likely some of those Rocket sets sold with Aristocrat Jr style razors. The ads by themselves are not definitive. The fact the cases say razor made in England and enough have shown up through the years paired that this is probably the case. What does seem to be clear here from the ads is the Aristocrat Junior style razors flat base plate or diamond (if they did wind up in a few later sets in 1950) did not make it past 1950 as being in a Rocket set which means any style of those would be a mismatch for the blue cases. You don't see a single instance of an Aristocrat Jr styled razor in a Rocket set period for every ad I've seen from 1951 through 56. Everything points to Super Speed style razors from 1950 and up for Canadian Rocket sets.
- Thread starter
- #33
If we go by sets sold in Australia for example we should be able to determine which style of Aristocrat Jr razor was sold in 1949 and 1950 also. I'll post the ads later on when I get them reformatted.
In 1949 in Australia they sold a no 22 Aristocrat set.
In 1950 it was the No 16 Aristocrat set.
What they share in common is both have the flat bottom base plate.
In 1950 they also show that the Aristocrat Jr was sold in a no 53 set.
We know they switched over to the 2nd gen Aristocrat Jr in 1949 which still had a flat base plate and new pointed end caps as per here.
The chemist and druggist [electronic resource] : UBM : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Also as an aside we know the difference between a no 51 and no 53 Aristocrat Jr set. No 51 came with a nickel plated razor and the No 53 came with a silver plated razor.
Put it all together if they didn't switch the base plates on the Aristocrats from the flat to diamond style in 1949 or 1950 they most likely didn't either with the Aristocrat Jr razors which means that the Canadian Rockets for both years would follow suite.
Readers digest version is in 1949 and 1950 Aristocrat Jr style razors were the flat base plate versions with the new pointed end caps and that is what was sold in Canadian Rocket sets either the cardboard boxes in 1949 and 1950 or red styrene case for 1950 only.
In 1949 in Australia they sold a no 22 Aristocrat set.
In 1950 it was the No 16 Aristocrat set.
What they share in common is both have the flat bottom base plate.
In 1950 they also show that the Aristocrat Jr was sold in a no 53 set.
We know they switched over to the 2nd gen Aristocrat Jr in 1949 which still had a flat base plate and new pointed end caps as per here.
The chemist and druggist [electronic resource] : UBM : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Also as an aside we know the difference between a no 51 and no 53 Aristocrat Jr set. No 51 came with a nickel plated razor and the No 53 came with a silver plated razor.
Put it all together if they didn't switch the base plates on the Aristocrats from the flat to diamond style in 1949 or 1950 they most likely didn't either with the Aristocrat Jr razors which means that the Canadian Rockets for both years would follow suite.
Readers digest version is in 1949 and 1950 Aristocrat Jr style razors were the flat base plate versions with the new pointed end caps and that is what was sold in Canadian Rocket sets either the cardboard boxes in 1949 and 1950 or red styrene case for 1950 only.
- Thread starter
- #34
- Thread starter
- #35
Few more pieces of information first here is an ad from 1952 that shows the introduction of the new Deluxe Rocket also notice it mentions a new easy opening case and the style of razor there is no way anyone is mistaking that for an Aristocrat Jr styled razor.
Ad from the Vancouver Sun Oct. 31st 1952
As far what style of Aristocrat Jr would have been sold in 49 and 50 if they sold British sets in Canada for these 2 years I would use ads from Canadian papers but they didn't far as I can find so I'll use ads from Australia since we can extrapolate what style of Aristocrat Jr razor would have been available each year by the style of Aristocrat razor.
This one is from the Age Dec. 1st 1949
This one is from the Age Dec. 5th 1950
You can see what type of Aristocrat was sold in both sets and they are the 2nd gen version with the flat base plate. So going by that it is most likely the flat base plate version of the Aristocrat Junior specifically the 2nd gen one with the flat base plate and pointed end caps is the razor that would have been sold in 1949 and 1950. As such it should be the same razor for the Rocket sets in 1949 and 1950.
Full page ads are attached but not thumbnailed if you want to see the exact paper and dates in the margins of the scans.
Ad from the Vancouver Sun Oct. 31st 1952
As far what style of Aristocrat Jr would have been sold in 49 and 50 if they sold British sets in Canada for these 2 years I would use ads from Canadian papers but they didn't far as I can find so I'll use ads from Australia since we can extrapolate what style of Aristocrat Jr razor would have been available each year by the style of Aristocrat razor.
This one is from the Age Dec. 1st 1949
This one is from the Age Dec. 5th 1950
You can see what type of Aristocrat was sold in both sets and they are the 2nd gen version with the flat base plate. So going by that it is most likely the flat base plate version of the Aristocrat Junior specifically the 2nd gen one with the flat base plate and pointed end caps is the razor that would have been sold in 1949 and 1950. As such it should be the same razor for the Rocket sets in 1949 and 1950.
Full page ads are attached but not thumbnailed if you want to see the exact paper and dates in the margins of the scans.
R
romsitsa
So you say that gen 4 Jr-s were not shipped/sold to/in Canada as there are no ads for them. Problem is these sets exist and are numerous.
Going by this reasoning half of the post war British Gillettes shouldn’t exist, for eg. there is no ad for a gen 2 no 19 or gold plated gen 3 or Anglo-american hybrid, gold plated juniors, but they pop up regularly.
Another problem is, Aristocrat Juniors were not silver plated, the ad that led to confusion only lists the razor as silver finish. Gillette didn’t use silver plating after the 30ies.
Canada simply put whatever was at hand into their cases, as they had no domestic tto production.
Adam
Going by this reasoning half of the post war British Gillettes shouldn’t exist, for eg. there is no ad for a gen 2 no 19 or gold plated gen 3 or Anglo-american hybrid, gold plated juniors, but they pop up regularly.
Another problem is, Aristocrat Juniors were not silver plated, the ad that led to confusion only lists the razor as silver finish. Gillette didn’t use silver plating after the 30ies.
Canada simply put whatever was at hand into their cases, as they had no domestic tto production.
Adam
- Thread starter
- #37
Frankly I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point and would argue that the sky is yellow when everyone else can see it is blue. More than that they didn't make them in 1949 or 1950 is point here.
The ads by themselves are not necessarily definitive you have to take into account all the surrounding information to see if it all points towards a similar to same conclusion which all this does thus far. Maybe doing analysis doesn't just include playing Devil's advocate though it is a useful approach to test the analyst and veracity of their conclusions.
There is still a lot stuff that hasn't been rediscovered yet from the ad records and elsewhere too. Did you know half as much about these razors or ads that no one who collects Gillettes or razors apparently knew existed until now when someone finally went out and did a little research on them? The information is not final and still subject to revision so go find the proof and I'll revise my conclusions.
On the 51 and 53 sets maybe he is referring to rhodium plating on those razors in the no 53 sets but it is clear by the description they are different looking some how the way they are finished.
Last edited:
R
romsitsa
It’s the same as it was with the 1940 Aristocrat. There are simply too many gen 4 Juniors in Rocket cases coming from Canada to say these didn’t existed because lack of an advertisement.
Yes, I browsed and am still browsing all available sources on Gillette models.
Adam
Yes, I browsed and am still browsing all available sources on Gillette models.
Adam
- Thread starter
- #39
I don't want to get far off topic here but this has relevance to the Canadian Rocket sets for 1949 and 1950.
First here are ads from 1949 and 1950 from British papers showing the exact same sets as sold in Australia, the No 16 and No 22. Conclusion they should be the same razors both are sets with the flat base plate Aristocrats not the diamond stamped ones. My point is here they didn't make any diamond stamped base plate razors Aristocrats or Aristocrat Jr razors in 1949 and 1950. The ones you are referring to wouldn't even exist at this point so they couldn't have been sold in these sets. It is not a case of did they sell an Aristocrat Jr styled razor in the Canadian Rocket sets but what style razor was it. We know that already that it is the gen 2 one with the flat base plate and pointed end caps. That is the style of base plate being produced on British Gillettes for these 2 years.
What you I do concede on is the Aristocrat Jr razors being silver plated the description in the ads explains the difference, the no 16 is " highly polished" and the no 22 is " heavily plated". I interpret that to be the the no 16 has a satin mirror like finish and the no 22 a flat matte like finish. Same plating different finish and that is most likely what they are referring to for the no 51 and no 53 Aristocrat Jr sets.
Here are the ads.
This one is from the Manchester Sun Dec. 4th 1949
This is from the London Guardian Nov. 27th 1950
For British sets being sold in Canada the only instances I found is for the no 66 and no 58 sets. The no 58 was sold from 53 - 55. The no 66 was 53 - 57. I don't find any earlier or later instances of British sets. The only variation is on the No 66 sets which they only offer in rhodium after 1955 prior to it is offered in gold and rhodium. That is the later style razors with the diamond base plate. Any 3rd gen Aristocrat Jr razors would have been at a minimum 1953 or later. I don't know what was sold between 1951 and 1953 so that date for the diamond stamped base plates can probably be revised downwards for British or Australian market razors. Point is they wouldn't have shown up until then in Canada and by then they were selling Deluxe Rockets with gold plated super speed style razors in the new blue style styrene cases. The ads show that razor not a British made one, the razor exists so real examples are out there, I happen to own one and they are distinct stamping wise from a Milord so there is a way to distinguish what is what when you examine each razor. When I get around to it which won't be for a while I'll post some pictures of the Milord and gold plated Super Speed razors side by side so everyone can see the difference.
Here is an ad from the Gazette Jun 10th 1954 showing those British made sets and an Aristocrat Deluxe set which clearly shows the razor style in it is a Super Speed not an Aristocrat Jr.
Full page ads as attachments.
First here are ads from 1949 and 1950 from British papers showing the exact same sets as sold in Australia, the No 16 and No 22. Conclusion they should be the same razors both are sets with the flat base plate Aristocrats not the diamond stamped ones. My point is here they didn't make any diamond stamped base plate razors Aristocrats or Aristocrat Jr razors in 1949 and 1950. The ones you are referring to wouldn't even exist at this point so they couldn't have been sold in these sets. It is not a case of did they sell an Aristocrat Jr styled razor in the Canadian Rocket sets but what style razor was it. We know that already that it is the gen 2 one with the flat base plate and pointed end caps. That is the style of base plate being produced on British Gillettes for these 2 years.
What you I do concede on is the Aristocrat Jr razors being silver plated the description in the ads explains the difference, the no 16 is " highly polished" and the no 22 is " heavily plated". I interpret that to be the the no 16 has a satin mirror like finish and the no 22 a flat matte like finish. Same plating different finish and that is most likely what they are referring to for the no 51 and no 53 Aristocrat Jr sets.
Here are the ads.
This one is from the Manchester Sun Dec. 4th 1949
This is from the London Guardian Nov. 27th 1950
For British sets being sold in Canada the only instances I found is for the no 66 and no 58 sets. The no 58 was sold from 53 - 55. The no 66 was 53 - 57. I don't find any earlier or later instances of British sets. The only variation is on the No 66 sets which they only offer in rhodium after 1955 prior to it is offered in gold and rhodium. That is the later style razors with the diamond base plate. Any 3rd gen Aristocrat Jr razors would have been at a minimum 1953 or later. I don't know what was sold between 1951 and 1953 so that date for the diamond stamped base plates can probably be revised downwards for British or Australian market razors. Point is they wouldn't have shown up until then in Canada and by then they were selling Deluxe Rockets with gold plated super speed style razors in the new blue style styrene cases. The ads show that razor not a British made one, the razor exists so real examples are out there, I happen to own one and they are distinct stamping wise from a Milord so there is a way to distinguish what is what when you examine each razor. When I get around to it which won't be for a while I'll post some pictures of the Milord and gold plated Super Speed razors side by side so everyone can see the difference.
Here is an ad from the Gazette Jun 10th 1954 showing those British made sets and an Aristocrat Deluxe set which clearly shows the razor style in it is a Super Speed not an Aristocrat Jr.
Full page ads as attachments.
Attachments
- Thread starter
- #40
Just so you know I don't mind hashing this out with you until we can find some conclusive proof for all this.
Similar threads
