First time honing with Shapton 16000 glass stone

[q345]

Hi all,
It's going to be my first attempt for honing, more precisely just advanced stropping, since I only have Shapton 16000 glass stone ( In the future I will also get Shapton Glass 4000 and 8000 to use it with 16000 for regular honing.

Couple of questions
1. Should I use distilled water to wet the stone?

And the most important one:

2. Which routine should I start with. I watched Lynn Abrams youtube clip about honing and he uses "40 circles" on each side and I think 8 straight passes on each side. Would it be a reasonable one to start with?

Thanks a lot

 

[Steve56]

1. Use filtered tap water (to remove chlorine) or bottled spring/drinking water

2. You really can’t count strokes. You have to test the edge to see if it’s finished.

 

[Tomo]

1. Use filtered tap water (to remove chlorine) or bottled spring/drinking water

2. You really can’t count strokes. You have to test the edge to see if it’s finished.

This is a new one to me. I’ve always used tap water and never considered there might be any reason not too. Our water supply is classified as soft water. Is there any issue with the low levels of chlorine found in drinking water?

I would probably advise against distilled water particularly with naturals. Distilled water can be quite corrosive. It readily dissolves all manner of minerals as it seeks to find equilibrium. Spring water of course should not have any issues.

 

[q345]

Thanks a lot for the response. One notice: I think Shelton glass hones are not natural stones. It's synthetic material bonded with a glass plate.

 

[Calou]

In my case I use the shapton glass 16K with tap water After an 8K. the flatness and surface roughness is very important with this stone because it has a real sharpening character despite its 16K which is thought to be polishing.
The pitfall is to make the edge so thin that it degrades on the stone (see Dr matt 357's video about this stone). This stone is not recommended for straight, however.
Once the flatness and surface roughness is prepared, I use it with a naniwa synthetic nagua to soften its sharpness.

With a bit of practice you can get this.

It's a stone that's not face to tame, like a wild stud

 

[JPO]

Hi all,
It's going to be my first attempt for honing, more precisely just advanced stropping, since I only have Shapton 16000 glass stone ( In the future I will also get Shapton Glass 4000 and 8000 to use it with 16000 for regular honing.

Couple of questions
1. Should I use distilled water to wet the stone?

And the most important one:

2. Which routine should I start with. I watched Lynn Abrams youtube clip about honing and he uses "40 circles" on each side and I think 8 straight passes on each side. Would it be a reasonable one to start with?

Thanks a lot

You need to find a way you can control the pressure on your bevel, there are no rules. You can use circles, x-strokes etc. I like rolling X-strokes and some circles just to mix it up.

The Shapton 16k might not be the best one stone solution, but as you said you are planning to add the 4k and the 8k later, so you need to work with what you have.

One problem with these fast cutting high grit stones is that it is difficult to know when you are done. When you pass over a certain line, your edge starts to fail. Slurry can help you, but i have not had much luck using slurry on my shapton stones.
My shapton stones seem to work best when they are freshly lapped. I try to avoid any glasing on the surface. Slurry helps to eliminate this, but can also work against you if it is not used right.

Lap counting does not help you much if you do not know how the edge is developing. This is one reason your mid range to pre finisher is so important. If you have done your work leading up to the 8k right, your 16k only needs 5-10 light laps. Doing more can set the edge back if the steel is not able to handle it.

One way you can use your 16k is to hone until you can tree top arm hair, then lightly joint the edge on the end of a soft polishing stone. Then you do 5-10 laps and the edge should be back. There is allot of trial and error needed with this method. You do not want to set the edge to far back. Your 16k is a fast stone, and should be able to get your edge back with light strokes without creating a false edge. I have the Shapton G7 0.85 micron. This approach works well with mine, but i am not sure if this have the same binder as the full sized stones.

 

[JPO]

In my case I use the shapton glass 16K with tap water After an 8K. the flatness and surface roughness is very important with this stone because it has a real sharpening character despite its 16K which is thought to be polishing.
The pitfall is to make the edge so thin that it degrades on the stone (see Dr matt 357's video about this stone). This stone is not recommended for straight, however.
Once the flatness and surface roughness is prepared, I use it with a naniwa synthetic nagua to soften its sharpness.

View attachment 1533239

With a bit of practice you can get this.
View attachment 1533240

It's a stone that's not face to tame, like a wild stud

That looks quite nice.
My higher grit shapton G7 seem to benefit from a surface that is dressed with a dressing stone or a slightly coarser glass stone. I struggled with my 0.44 micron G7, but when i rub a slightly coarser stone over it to dress the surface it seems to act a little finer.
From the photo it does seem like the slurry have created a little convexity, however it is probably not more then a leather strop will introduce within a few shaves.
Now i need to try my Shapton with some Naniwa 12k slurry

 

[lloydw]

I have one and I find my 16k slightly grittier if unsued for a while, not sure what it is, maybe moisture settling?
I thus make sure I lap it before using and I use with only water - mosty after the 8k or even 12k kuromaku. Never circles and only a handful of very light strokes

My thoughts are to just play around with it, starting with such a high stone - it might be harder to assess and isolate any technique or adjustments, but I am sure you will learn nonetheless.

enjoy your learning

 

[Calou]

That looks quite nice.
My higher grit shapton G7 seem to benefit from a surface that is dressed with a dressing stone or a slightly coarser glass stone. I struggled with my 0.44 micron G7, but when i rub a slightly coarser stone over it to dress the surface it seems to act a little finer.
From the photo it does seem like the slurry have created a little convexity, however it is probably not more then a leather strop will introduce within a few shaves.
Now i need to try my Shapton with some Naniwa 12k slurry

Yes, limiting sharpening with slurry is the idea. But it's fine tuning, feather weight, slurry consistency. Another way is to finish after 16k using a strop with Ox Cr3 as described on scienceofsharp blog. these two ways are fun but it's not plug and play like with other systems to finish a straight.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Lots of drama with these stones. But they are in a class of high grit aggressive finish stones like the SG20 and Shapton 30k. They are finisher that can over deliver, if too many laps are used on a flat bevel.

But it is not a big issue. As said just joint the edge, lightly drag the edge on a corner of the stone to cut off the flashing, (micro burr) and bring back to meeting with fewer light laps.

So, if refreshing an edge, I would first joint the edge, strop on linen to remove any flashing. Then do X laps to get them to meeting, look straight down on the edge with magnification. If you see any reflections, those are chips or bevels not meeting. Once meeting fully, do 10 more laps. Re-Joint the edge, strop on linen (10 laps) and bring them back to meeting 5-10 laps.

Shapton 16 and Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN is a nice edge.

The 16 is an aggressive stone. On the SG20 I do 3-5 finish laps. I use the Shapton16 to finish most planes and chisels with a 3-5 lap micro bevel.

I have hard aquifer water, but I hone with bottled water, I have a bride that notoriously drinks half a bottle of water and leaves the rest in the car, so I have an endless supply.

 

[Gamma]

No, you don't need distilled water.

What was the blade honed on before?
If it was done on a Jnat by someone with good skills then the 16k Glass Stone won't bring that edge up to par.
Typically - if you are only doing 'touchups' - you'd want the stone that the blade was finished on. Or close.

For the 16k Glass - the stone needs to be very flat, check with a known straightedge on 8 axes.
Keep your lap count to a minimum - start with 5 passes. You'll need a light touch, very light.

If your edge was 'just' falling off, 5 passes should do it. If you think it needs more passes, ask yourself why you think that. Don't assume. Then maybe give it another 2-5 passes.

My normal finishing process, when this stone is involved, has me on the 16k for 5-15 passes. Normally about 10 or so. I don't really count but the time on the stone is uber-minimal. Zero swarf on the stone is a must, if there are dark trails then I need to go back a step or two.
If I needed more passes, then I didn't do the previous work correctly.

It's not that the stone was 'not recommended' for razor honing. It's just that Shapton never called this stone out for razors. Which is an entirely different thing

Shapton's information is all over the place and often contradictory. It's possible, maybe probable, that they didn't think you shouldn't 'need' 16k for a razor. The finest Glass Stone (originally) on the 'razor list' was the 10k Glass. But all of this was without explanation. Now I think the finest grits in their GS 7 series stones are on the 'razor list' - but they're the same as the 16k & 30k Glass. So, well.... go figure.

But they did recommend the 16k GS for Kanna blades, for making ultra precise transparent wood shavings that have thicknesses measured in a few microns. If you see those blades in action, you know how smooth they have to be. For sure, the 16k is usable for razors, but it's fussy and people tend to mis-use it and then blame the stone. I've owned one a long time, honed on it a lot, it's not my fave stone, it's sorta pesty in a way. But, it works fine when it isn't forced into being what it is not.

Personally, in a general sense, I think the 10k Glass followed by the 30k for a few passes is a better way to go.
But, back to square one - how was the blade honed in the first place? The 16k Glass is not a Swiss Army Knife type of stone. If you are expecting the edge off that stone to be the best thing since sliced bread, it probably won't measure up.

 

[q345]

No, you don't need distilled water.

What was the blade honed on before?
If it was done on a Jnat by someone with good skills then the 16k Glass Stone won't bring that edge up to par.
Typically - if you are only doing 'touchups' - you'd want the stone that the blade was finished on. Or close.

For the 16k Glass - the stone needs to be very flat, check with a known straightedge on 8 axes.
Keep your lap count to a minimum - start with 5 passes. You'll need a light touch, very light.

If your edge was 'just' falling off, 5 passes should do it. If you think it needs more passes, ask yourself why you think that. Don't assume. Then maybe give it another 2-5 passes.

My normal finishing process, when this stone is involved, has me on the 16k for 5-15 passes. Normally about 10 or so. I don't really count but the time on the stone is uber-minimal. Zero swarf on the stone is a must, if there are dark trails then I need to go back a step or two.
If I needed more passes, then I didn't do the previous work correctly.

It's not that the stone was 'not recommended' for razor honing. It's just that Shapton never called this stone out for razors. Which is an entirely different thing

Shapton's information is all over the place and often contradictory. It's possible, maybe probable, that they didn't think you shouldn't 'need' 16k for a razor. The finest Glass Stone (originally) on the 'razor list' was the 10k Glass. But all of this was without explanation. Now I think the finest grits in their GS 7 series stones are on the 'razor list' - but they're the same as the 16k & 30k Glass. So, well.... go figure.

But they did recommend the 16k GS for Kanna blades, for making ultra precise transparent wood shavings that have thicknesses measured in a few microns. If you see those blades in action, you know how smooth they have to be. For sure, the 16k is usable for razors, but it's fussy and people tend to mis-use it and then blame the stone. I've owned one a long time, honed on it a lot, it's not my fave stone, it's sorta pesty in a way. But, it works fine when it isn't forced into being what it is not.

Personally, in a general sense, I think the 10k Glass followed by the 30k for a few passes is a better way to go.
But, back to square one - how was the blade honed in the first place? The 16k Glass is not a Swiss Army Knife type of stone. If you are expecting the edge off that stone to be the best thing since sliced bread, it probably won't measure up.

Thanks so much for your very detailed answer. The blade honed before by a professional and he used 4000/8000/16000 Shapton glass stones ( he also mentioned that he uses for 30000 Shapton for just a couple of passes to finish) , so I got 16000 just to start with, to 'fix' blade each couple of weeks or so. I never honed my razor before so I am starting with the minimum. I also understand that Shapton stones don't require to be soaked, just to put some water from a spray bottle. No slurry either, as far as I understand. Regarding the flatness, I just bot the stone and it arrived sealed, in original package, so I assume it's flat. But I will check with straighthedge, found a few on Amazon so I will order one. I realize I also need a lapping stone in the future.

 

[q345]

In my case I use the shapton glass 16K with tap water After an 8K. the flatness and surface roughness is very important with this stone because it has a real sharpening character despite its 16K which is thought to be polishing.
The pitfall is to make the edge so thin that it degrades on the stone (see Dr matt 357's video about this stone). This stone is not recommended for straight, however.
Once the flatness and surface roughness is prepared, I use it with a naniwa synthetic nagua to soften its sharpness.

View attachment 1533239

With a bit of practice you can get this.
View attachment 1533240

It's a stone that's not face to tame, like a wild stud

Thanks so much for the info. May I ask if you used USB microscope for the shot and if Yes, which brand/model. I have an old cheap one, but It's nowhere close to generate the shot of quality you published. Which magnification is it?

 

[JPO]

Thanks so much for your very detailed answer. The blade honed before by a professional and he used 4000/8000/16000 Shapton glass stones ( he also mentioned that he uses for 30000 Shapton for just a couple of passes to finish) , so I got 16000 just to start with, to 'fix' blade each couple of weeks or so. I never honed my razor before so I am starting with the minimum. I also understand that Shapton stones don't require to be soaked, just to put some water from a spray bottle. No slurry either, as far as I understand. Regarding the flatness, I just bot the stone and it arrived sealed, in original package, so I assume it's flat. But I will check with straighthedge, found a few on Amazon so I will order one. I realize I also need a lapping stone in the future.

When the stones are new they have a thin top layer that needs to be removed. They come relatively flat, but a short lapping is required for these two reasons.

 

[rbscebu]

.... Regarding the flatness, I just bot the stone and it arrived sealed, in original package, so I assume it's flat. But I will check with straighthedge, found a few on Amazon so I will order one. I realize I also need a lapping stone in the future.

Your first mistake in honing. Never assume. A straightedge is generally not straight enough to check for flatness. Best you use pencil to crosshatch the whetstone's surface and then give it a few laps on W&D on a flat granite tile to confirm the flatness (or lack thereof).

As @JPO says above, your new whetstone will need some lapping anyway. Use 400 or 600 grit W&D wet.

 

[Calou]

Thanks so much for the info. May I ask if you used USB microscope for the shot and if Yes, which brand/model. I have an old cheap one, but It's nowhere close to generate the shot of quality you published. Which magnification is it?

Same microscope as Dr matt 357 YT video.
Brand: dinolite
Model: AM4515T8
magnification: 700 to 900

 

[Pack line]

Your first mistake in honing. Never assume. A straightedge is generally not straight enough to check for flatness. Best you use pencil to crosshatch the whetstone's surface and then give it a few laps on W&D on a flat granite tile to confirm the flatness (or lack thereof).

As @JPO says above, your new whetstone will need some lapping anyway. Use 400 or 600 grit W&D wet.

Might be prudent to define straight edge. I am fairly certain that @Gamma is referring to an actual machinists straight edge not a metal ruler. Two very different tools even tho the name commonly used for both.
And since i have lapped granite tiles with the Whitworth 3 plate method before, i can tell you they are not as flat as people think. Most likely flat enough for lapping stones, but from a precision flatness point of view, not flat at all.
Hence the reason for a quality straight edge. A known good reference surface so you are not assuming anything is flat, you know it is.

 

[RayClem]

Trhe Shapton Glass 16K has a somewhat checkered reputation for honing razors. You might want to review this video by DrMatt357. The SG16K is prone to chipping the edge of some razors.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Interesting video. Matt’s method of testing a stone is a good one and easy to do. You can polish off all the 8k stria from a bevel in about 50-100 laps on a .50 um CBN strop.

Then lay your test stone stria over a stria free, mirrored bevel.

Yes, the 12k Naniwia Super Stone is the Honda Accord of finishing stones, they just work. For me the problem with them is the swarf build up, if you do not remove the black swarf from the Super Stone, it will chip an edge. If you use a 12k Super Stone, make sure to lap the stone clean before you do your finishing laps.

The 8k Snow White, (about the same money) will do everything a 12k will do, without the swarf.

The 16k is aggressive, all Shapton’s are aggressive. I agree with Matt, doing more than 10 laps will cause chipping. But the edge can easily be jointed and re set in less than 10 laps.

As said the 16k does need to be well lapped, if they sit for a while, they develop a skin that makes them not want to cut well, not to mention airborne dust. I had a problem with my 16k until I lapped it with a 140 grit plate and smoothed with a 600.

You can also get some interesting results with Jnat nagura on a 16k. For me the 16k is a great tool stone.

 

[Frank Shaves]

2. Which routine should I start with. I watched Lynn Abrams youtube clip about honing and he uses "40 circles" on each side and I think 8 straight passes on each side. Would it be a reasonable one to start with?

Like others have said, you need to figure out what works for you. I would experiment with circles and x-strokes. I would also recommend you get a couple of beater razors on eBay or Gold Dollar razors to experiment with.

For a good explanation of the different strokes, see The various strokes used for razor sharpening - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone - http://coticule.be/strokes.html.