Finishing

[ScottChapin]

Where do I turn for a good stone to finish the edge once I have my bevel. I use Norton 4000/8000 now, but think I want a finer stone for polishing.

The Jnats seem to come on so many varieties that it’s difficult for me to find a vendor or to know which to get. Sharpton glass stones look good too, but I’m not sure which to get.


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[Slash McCoy]

I don't like the new Norton stones at all. 20 years or so ago they were better. YMMV.

There are plenty of Jnat experts who will chime in on this, but synthetics are simpler to learn. The Naniwa Superstones or I should say the new stones that replaced the Superstone lineup, are very consistent and easy to use. Get the thick ones for best results. The thin ones can deform slightly when they have absorbed enough water. Some users have had success with the thin ones glueing them to a metal, glass, or nonporous stone plate. I haven't noticed much problem with this, myself.

The cheap and simple way to run a synthetic progression is lapping film. Results are incredible, even on your second or third attempt. Sometimes your first, if you are good at following directions. Very easy to learn. All you need is a very flat plate that you can hold in hand, about 3"x12", your film, and something to cut a sheet into thirds longways. Wet the plate and stick the film down. The water holds it firmly onto the plate. Now you have a dead flat hone of whatever grit, and when the surface is worn to where it doesn't hone anymore, you toss that piece for a new one.

If you are happy with your Nortons and just want to add a finisher to that progression, you could go with just a 12k Naniwa, or just 1u (one micron) film. Or 1u diamond paste on lapped balsa, followed by .5u, .25u, and .1u. The three finer grades are good for following the 12k or the 1u film, too, if you go one of those routes. The .5u can give a somewhat harsh feeling edge to some users, and the .25u is even more likely to make an edge you might percieve as harsh. However, the .1u for some reason makes a pretty comfortable edge that is still blistery insanely microlaserbeam sharp. For a little lagniappe, the .1u also works beautifully for post-shave edge maintenance. 50 laps on the balsa after every shave and you should never need to re-hone that razor, ever, unless you damage it.

Lately I have taken to using 3/4" thick acrylic for my plates-- for using lapping film, as a rigid backing for balsa strops, or with sandpaper for bevel setting or edge repair. It is pretty darn flat and it won't warp in your bathroom from humidity. It won't break if you drop it. It is lighter than stone. It looks kewl. It isn't expensive. TAP Plastics is where I ordered the last batch which is due to arrive today. 1/2" works but 3/4" is easier to hold, and you don't need to have your fingertips above the surface of the plate where your razor could contact them.

The diamond on balsa must be prepared and used properly or it simply won't work as advertised. Lapping film too. All imaginable questions have been asked and answered on these two threads:
Lapping film, try it. | Badger & Blade, and
How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade.

Another option for following your 8k is a C12k, or PHIG, Chinese 12k or People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit, respectively. These used to be pretty cheap and while kinda slow, gave a pretty good finish. Unfortunately fleabay is full of patio pavers from China being billed as C12k or Cnat. YMMV. You could get a good one. I prefer the certain and consistent results from film, though sometimes I break out the Nannys if I am doing a dozen or more razors in one sitting.

 

[ScottChapin]

Thank you! The lapping paper and acrylic plates sounds intriguing, as does the 12K Naniwa. I will check them out!


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[lightfoot]

If I were finishing off a synthetic I would look at the Naniwa 10k super stone as another consideration. That stone is more highly regarded than the 12k by certain people for some reason. I’d love to have one for a direct comparison.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thank you! The lapping paper and acrylic plates sounds intriguing, as does the 12K Naniwa. I will check them out!


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Dont get lapping paper, polishing paper, polishing film, lapping polish, polishing lap, blah blah blah make sure it is LAPPING FILM, and plain back rather than sticky back, and full size sheets not little 6x6 patches or circles. Anyway read the threads. It will take a while. All is revealed therein.

 

[ScottChapin]

Dont get lapping paper, polishing paper, polishing film, lapping polish, polishing lap, blah blah blah make sure it is LAPPING FILM, and plain back rather than sticky back, and full size sheets not little 6x6 patches or circles. Anyway read the threads. It will take a while. All is revealed therein.

Got it.


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[Gamma]

Where do I turn for a good stone to finish the edge once I have my bevel. I use Norton 4000/8000 now, but think I want a finer stone for polishing.

What are you using to set your bevel with?

 

[ScottChapin]

What are you using to set your bevel with?

How did I miss this? I’m setting my bevel with a 4000 grit Norton, the 4000/8000 grit water stone


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[Slash McCoy]

There will be times when the 4k just won't do the job in a timely manner and you will want something in the 600 to 1200 grit range for bevel setting. The Chosera is highly regarded. I use sandpaper glued to polished stone or acrylic base and this works very well for someone who doesn't have to set a bevel often and would rather not drop the coin on a relatively expensive and seldom used rock. Plus you use whatever grit seems appropriate to the job, and it doesn't need lapping. I have also used the cheap diamond plates from harbor freight though they could be a little flatter. Still, they can be okay to start the process when a lot of steel must come off. There are lots of options that work better than a N4k

 

[ScottChapin]

There will be times when the 4k just won't do the job in a timely manner and you will want something in the 600 to 1200 grit range for bevel setting. The Chosera is highly regarded. I use sandpaper glued to polished stone or acrylic base and this works very well for someone who doesn't have to set a bevel often and would rather not drop the coin on a relatively expensive and seldom used rock. Plus you use whatever grit seems appropriate to the job, and it doesn't need lapping. I have also used the cheap diamond plates from harbor freight though they could be a little flatter. Still, they can be okay to start the process when a lot of steel must come off. There are lots of options that work better than a N4k

I would think so with restorations and such, like my greatgranduncle’s Boker, if I can find it. So far my three blades are relatively new and haven’t required extensive reworking. I’m looking for that ultimate edge.

I am handicapped in that I don’t know whether issues are due to the blade, or lack of skill. I’m sure it’s the later, since I have only been shaving on weekends for about three months and learning.


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[buca3152]

The most important thing here is that you can recognize a set bevel. This is crucial. I use the wet thumbnail test, others shave arm hair, others use cherry tomatoes. There are others. The whole thing is a waste until you learn that IMO. Once that is mastered most of your troubles are over.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Newbie Honing Compendium

This will set you back a bit so you can review the basics and pick up anything you have missed. If you determine that your bevel is good, and you think your Norton's are doing their job (myself, I don't hold the new Norton stones in very high regard. YMMV.) Then you might try continuing the progression with 3u and then 1u lapping fi as per the lapping film thread. Alternately you could pull the trigger on a nice new 12k Naniwa but film is easier and cheaper. When you are tree topping nicely off the 1u, film, read the balsa strop thread if you want to kick it up still another level. Back in the day, the OLD Norton 8k was considered an acceptable finisher but we have better options now, and the Norton rocks made during the last 15 years or so seem to be of much lower quality, to me.

Still, you can probably kick it up a little higher with the N8k. After lapping it well, and honing a couple of hard stainless chef knives to smooth it back out, try finishing on the Norton as usual. Then, rinse the stone thoroughly. Add ,shaving lather. Hone with a light touch and slowly slowly reduce pressure to the point where the razor is just floating over the stone in .the lather. Replenish the lather as needed. This takes a few hundred laps because the stone is barely cutting. You must hone in hand for this to work because it is almost impossible to regulate pressure so light. Done properly this makes the 8k edge approach the 12k level of sharpness. Takes some practice to get it nailed.

 

[ScottChapin]

The most important thing here is that you can recognize a set bevel. This is crucial. I use the wet thumbnail test, others shave arm hair, others use cherry tomatoes. There are others. The whole thing is a waste until you learn that IMO. Once that is mastered most of your troubles are over.

I don’t do the wet thumbnail test, but arm hairs and tomatoes do just fine. Actually I do one with the grain pass and finish with a DE, until I’m accomplished.

My straights are very comfortable, but I’m not as close as I get with a DE. So I wonder whether it’s me or the edge’s finish.


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[ScottChapin]

Newbie Honing Compendium

This will set you back a bit so you can review the basics and pick up anything you have missed. If you determine that your bevel is good, and you think your Norton's are doing their job (myself, I don't hold the new Norton stones in very high regard. YMMV.) Then you might try continuing the progression with 3u and then 1u lapping fi as per the lapping film thread. Alternately you could pull the trigger on a nice new 12k Naniwa but film is easier and cheaper. When you are tree topping nicely off the 1u, film, read the balsa strop thread if you want to kick it up still another level. Back in the day, the OLD Norton 8k was considered an acceptable finisher but we have better options now, and the Norton rocks made during the last 15 years or so seem to be of much lower quality, to me.

Still, you can probably kick it up a little higher with the N8k. After lapping it well, and honing a couple of hard stainless chef knives to smooth it back out, try finishing on the Norton as usual. Then, rinse the stone thoroughly. Add ,shaving lather. Hone with a light touch and slowly slowly reduce pressure to the point where the razor is just floating over the stone in .the lather. Replenish the lather as needed. This takes a few hundred laps because the stone is barely cutting. You must hone in hand for this to work because it is almost impossible to regulate pressure so light. Done properly this makes the 8k edge approach the 12k level of sharpness. Takes some practice to get it nailed.

I was at the Imperial Shave last week while visiting family. I picked up a Naniwa 12K and a Ralph Aust.

I was thinking of getting lapping film and using the 12K stone to support it, if the 12K doesn’t do it. I’ll probably order an acrylic block from TAP too. It’s a real rabbit hole.

 

[seattleshaver]

I don’t do the wet thumbnail test, but arm hairs and tomatoes do just fine. Actually I do one with the grain pass and finish with a DE, until I’m accomplished.

My straights are very comfortable, but I’m not as close as I get with a DE. So I wonder whether it’s me or the edge’s finish.


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Can you get as close on the cheeks with a straight as with a DE? If so and you aren't able to do the same on other parts of your face, it's technique.

 

[ScottChapin]

Can you get as close on the cheeks with a straight as with a DE? If so and you aren't able to do the same on other parts of your face, it's technique.

I do fairly well on the cheeks and neck. I’m fairly close on the submandibular triangle (for lack of a better description).

My chin is terrible, even after stretching it above and below the jaw to get a good flat run across it.

I know my technique needs a lot of work, but I want confidence that the blade isn’t partly to blame.


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[Gamma]

Everyone is different, but if I was working with a Norton combo on the front end, I'd probably be looking for a better bevel setter before I thought about a better finisher. But that's just me.

But you asked about a polisher...

I used to follow the Norton 8k with a Naniwa 8k.... it's notably finer but still not enough for me to want to shave off of it. Jumping to the 12k Naniwa from the N8k is possible, but it's not how I like to hone, I want another stone in between.
But - no matter what - if your bevel isn't on point, there is no polisher that will solve the puzzle.

 

[ScottChapin]

Everyone is different, but if I was working with a Norton combo on the front end, I'd probably be looking for a better bevel setter before I thought about a better finisher. But that's just me.

But you asked about a polisher...

I used to follow the Norton 8k with a Naniwa 8k.... it's notably finer but still not enough for me to want to shave off of it. Jumping to the 12k Naniwa from the N8k is possible, but it's not how I like to hone, I want another stone in between.
But - no matter what - if your bevel isn't on point, there is no polisher that will solve the puzzle.

Well, considering that my two Dovos and one Ralph Aust were brand new when acquired, I’m betting the bevels were properly set. Two came shave ready from a reputable source and Sfaile honed the one from the factory, so I know its bevel is set and the others should be.

I figure when it comes to perfection, I’m at the maintenance/finishing side of the curve.


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[Slash McCoy]

I was at the Imperial Shave last week while visiting family. I picked up a Naniwa 12K and a Ralph Aust.

I was thinking of getting lapping film and using the 12K stone to support it, if the 12K doesn’t do it. I’ll probably order an acrylic block from TAP too. It’s a real rabbit hole.

Most guys find the edge off the 12k Nanny to give a quite acceptable shave. I do find that 1u film edges are a bit keener and of course not dependant on a freshly lapped surface. BTW the lather trick works nicely on the Naniwa, too. The Naniwa is an easy stone to learn and it will up your game almost immediately. Keep it flat, hone in hand, and watch the pressure, and it will treat you well.

The lather trick is a big bother if you hone a lot of razors, and isn't worth the time, when you can just finish on finer media. If you just maintain a couple of razors for yourself then it is more practical.

 

[ScottChapin]

Most guys find the edge off the 12k Nanny to give a quite acceptable shave. I do find that 1u film edges are a bit keener and of course not dependant on a freshly lapped surface. BTW the lather trick works nicely on the Naniwa, too. The Naniwa is an easy stone to learn and it will up your game almost immediately. Keep it flat, hone in hand, and watch the pressure, and it will treat you well.

The lather trick is a big bother if you hone a lot of razors, and isn't worth the time, when you can just finish on finer media. If you just maintain a couple of razors for yourself then it is more practical.

Thanks. I just have 3 razors in rotation, so I’ll try the lather trick. I find it intriguing to hold the stone in hand, especially since it’s fairly thin. Maybe I should palm it?


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