Even bevel obstacles and should I double tape or not?

[noahpictures]

I have a razor with a sharp heel and toe but the middle is dull. I have at least two more with only sharp heels. The razors have been lapped at least 200 to 300 times on 1200 grit without much much success. I am trying to put on an even bevel but I am unable to. Will double taping the spine help? Any other possible solutions?

EDIT: The razors don't have frowns.

Both of the razors are half hollow.

1. Ptre (white scales): Toe and heel are keen but the middle is not.
2. Juste Judicato (black scales): Only the heel is keen.

 

[smalltank]

hmm..are you SURE your razor doesnt have any sort of smile..I have a razor that does..very slight and can barely be seen..I had to change my honing for this completely compared to my other razors which are all "straight"

 

[cb91710]

Frown.

Frown will make a sharp heel and toe.
Smile is actually desirable and hones nicely with a rolling x-stroke.

But yes... check for a frown. Assuming the DMT is flat, gently lay the edge (breadknife style) on the hone, dim the lights, and shine a light against the back of the blade.
Are you seeing more light passing under the middle of the blade than the ends?

If so, the frown can perhaps be breadknifed out if it is not too bad and the bevel reset.

 

[UPD]

Most common reasons why the middle doesn't get sharp are because of a frown and using too much pressure on the hones, causing the blade to flex and thus the edge is deflected off the stones.

So, check for a frown and check your pressure. You can use a little pressure when setting the bevel, but if the blade is flexing a lot then the edge is most likely not making contact with the hones.

More tape won't correct these issues.

 

[noahpictures]

hmm..are you SURE your razor doesnt have any sort of smile..I have a razor that does..very slight and can barely be seen..I had to change my honing for this completely compared to my other razors which are all "straight"

Frown.

Frown will make a sharp heel and toe.
Smile is actually desirable and hones nicely with a rolling x-stroke.

But yes... check for a frown. Assuming the DMT is flat, gently lay the edge (breadknife style) on the hone, dim the lights, and shine a light against the back of the blade.
Are you seeing more light passing under the middle of the blade than the ends?

If so, the frown can perhaps be breadknifed out if it is not too bad and the bevel reset.

Most common reasons why the middle doesn't get sharp are because of a frown and using too much pressure on the hones, causing the blade to flex and thus the edge is deflected off the stones.

So, check for a frown and check your pressure. You can use a little pressure when setting the bevel, but if the blade is flexing a lot then the edge is most likely not making contact with the hones.

More tape won't correct these issues.

None of the razors have frowns. Maybe I am using too much pressure. When I hone I hold the razor using both hands so maybe ​I am using too much pressure.

 

[Gamma]

What does the spine wear show?
Can you post close-up pix?
Are they full hollows?
So many razors with the same issue, or nearly the same issue is interesting - have you tried using another hone to set the bevels?
What strokes are you using?

 

[LessLemming]

I too think pictures would help a lot.
Maybe your blade is warped, or poorly hollow ground.

Did you do a marker test?

 

[danjared]

What kind of stroke are you using?

You say they don't have frowns, but how did you test?

Is the wear on each side the same?

 

[rickboone1]

Sounds like your middle isn't making contact. You have the heel and toe in tact. Don't do x strokes. Just straight up and down strokes. Do about 40 per sides. Just back and forth. With a little pressure, put your finger in the middle of the blade while doing this. See if your edge doesn't start coming through on that part of the blade.

 

[danjared]

Sounds like your middle isn't making contact. You have the heel and toe in tact. Don't do x strokes. Just straight up and down strokes. Do about 40 per sides. Just back and forth. With a little pressure, put your finger in the middle of the blade while doing this. See if your edge doesn't start coming through on that part of the blade.

X-strokes would allow the middle to contact the hone, even in some cases where the middle wouldn't with a straight back and forth stroke.

 

[rickboone1]

X-strokes would allow the middle to contact the hone, even in some cases where the middle wouldn't with a straight back and forth stroke.

True, only thing I'm thinking about is if he is focusing hard on the stroke, perhaps the start and finish of it, may be putting a little more focus and pressure on the start and finish of the stroke, thus causing good contact with toe and heel. I'm trying to isolate the middle and do some hardcore honing on it and see what happens. (easier to do than put into words). I wonder, too, if there may not be a little warp to the blade.

Does one side seem more honed and a better bevel than the other?

 

[danjared]

True, only thing I'm thinking about is if he is focusing hard on the stroke, perhaps the start and finish of it, may be putting a little more focus and pressure on the start and finish of the stroke, thus causing good contact with toe and heel. I'm trying to isolate the middle and do some hardcore honing on it and see what happens. (easier to do than put into words). I wonder, too, if there may not be a little warp to the blade.

Oh, good point. I guess a straight stroke would help to rule out a warp or frown too if the razor has no smile to it. Marking the edge with a sharpie would help too with seeing where and when metal is removed.

 

[global_dev]

pics of both sides with marker test would give some more info... can you go down in grit to something coarser?

 

[noahpictures]

I uploaded some pics.

What does the spine wear show?
Can you post close-up pix?
Are they full hollows?
So many razors with the same issue, or nearly the same issue is interesting - have you tried using another hone to set the bevels?
What strokes are you using?

They are half hollow. I hone straight up and down.

I too think pictures would help a lot.
Maybe your blade is warped, or poorly hollow ground.

Did you do a marker test?

No I haven't done the marker test yet.

What kind of stroke are you using?

You say they don't have frowns, but how did you test?

Is the wear on each side the same?

I hone straight up and down. To me the hone wear looks the same on both sides (please see pics). I haven't done any testing. They don't look like they have frowns.

pics of both sides with marker test would give some more info... can you go down in grit to something coarser?

I'll be doing the marker test. I do have a DMT 600 grit.

 

[Doc226]

No frowns on the razors from the pics

Hone wear appears pretty even.

My guess is you have multiple bevels throughout the edge. Try marking the edge with a sharpie then running over a 4K or higher hone just to see where the sharpie is removed. You might need to take a loupe to see the very edge of the edge.

To answer your original question, yes taping will probably help in setting the bevel.

 

[danjared]

All those razors have a slight smile to them. A simple back and forth stroke will destroy the intentional contour of the edge. It already looks like the second one needs some work to fix this mistake. An x-stroke is necessary and most especially for these razors. A second layer of tape will not make the problem go away. Unfortunately, it looks like the middles of both edges are what have been honed the most.

As far as identifying a frown, looks can be deceiving. I recommend reading this: http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/504.html

 

[jeness]

Flat stones, marker test, medium pressure at most, X strokes, and you will be fine.

 

[smalltank]

+1 on the sharpie idea..when I got my ebay razor..I didnt know why I wasnt getting the heel sharp at all..helped alot..when you rehone with the sharpie line on the edge you will see which part of the razor makes contact and which part needs a bit of "tweaking"

 

[noahpictures]

Thanks everyone. I'll try x-strokes.

All those razors have a slight smile to them. A simple back and forth stroke will destroy the intentional contour of the edge. It already looks like the second one needs some work to fix this mistake. An x-stroke is necessary and most especially for these razors. A second layer of tape will not make the problem go away. Unfortunately, it looks like the middles of both edges are what have been honed the most.

As far as identifying a frown, looks can be deceiving. I recommend reading this: http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/504.html

Thanks for the info and link.

 

[global_dev]

i would make them rolling