Espresso Machines, and grinder advice needed

[thanks]

I wasn't going to add to Joel's thread as this is different because my budget is much tighter. As a student, I'm not looking to buy a new grinder or a machine right away, but rather save up for it and treat myself.

So, from my research, it seems to be between two machines as far as buying new. The Gaggia Baby, and of course Miss Silvia. Both pretty much need a PID from my understanding which is roughly $250 additional cost. Are there any other machines I should be considering? Any other things to know, and are the differences in price between the two justified?

As for grinders, is it pretty much down to the Rancilio Rocky? Why would anyone want a doserless model? I would like to hear about different ideas for grinders as I know this is where you shouldn't skimp, but my budget is pretty limited.

I should also say I'm not after that elusive god shot, but at the same time I don't want to be limited. I want to be using this same grinder and espresso machine until they can no longer be repaired, and hopefully by then I'll have the money to go with a really nice and expensive setup.

 

[StillShaving]

Forgive me for not answering your question, but based on your comments, perhaps you would be as happy with something like an Aeropress, Chemex, or Vietnamese drip instead of an espresso machine. When paired with fresh, good coffee beans each can make a very good cup, extra strong if that is what you like, for much less equipment cost. Leaving the espresso machine as something to experience later on, while putting your initial investment into a grinder.

I enjoy my espresso machine, it can make some of the best coffee I have ever tasted, but more often than not I find myself drinking americanos or lattes instead of straight shots. Those other methods can be just as good and simpler to make, so I find myself choosing them more often.

 

[SlowRain]

I'll second the recommendation of an AeroPress. It doesn't make espresso, but it makes very good Americano-style coffee. If I were on a budget, that's what I'd go for.

As for a grinder, how many drinks do you plan on making per day and at one time? If you'll just be doing one or two, may I suggest a Porlex hand grinder. That's what I use, and it's very, very good. There is another one made by Kyocera that uses the same burrs, but I don't recommend it (I have both, so this is based on my own personal use). The Porlex is very good at grinding for espresso and AeroPress. Or, you could go with a new or restored Zassenhaus. Give these guys a try and see what they have: http://www.orphanespresso.com/. I've bought some cleaning supplies from them before, and they have an immaculate reputation on coffee-related discussion forums.

As for alternative espresso machines, there is the Le'Lit PL041 that seems to be okay as well. I'd suggest a Gaggia Classic over a Gaggia Baby as it seems to have a better reputation. You may want to consider an entry-level La Pavoni lever machine, but they come with their own frustrations.

And, like StillShaving said, "Fresh, good coffee beans". Fresh, for espresso, means using them up around 7-14 days from the day they were roasted.

 

[GarageBoy]

Lots of coffee geeks are more than happy with their non PIDed Silvia and Gaggias. IIRC, the baby is just a Classic with more plastic
Some guys find that the doser gets in the way, others like the doser not to dose, but to dispense coffee more evenly into their PF baskets

 

[Jasonian]

Lots of coffee geeks are more than happy with their non PIDed Silvia and Gaggias. IIRC, the baby is just a Classic with more plastic
Some guys find that the doser gets in the way, others like the doser not to dose, but to dispense coffee more evenly into their PF baskets

I like my doser to help break up clumps, thus improving consistency of distribution and puck density.

 

[thanks]

Sorry gents. I've been extremely busy lately, and this is the first time I've actually had time to peruse B&B in a while.

Forgive me for not answering your question, but based on your comments, perhaps you would be as happy with something like an Aeropress, Chemex, or Vietnamese drip instead of an espresso machine...

I enjoy my espresso machine, it can make some of the best coffee I have ever tasted, but more often than not I find myself drinking americanos or lattes instead of straight shots. Those other methods can be just as good and simpler to make, so I find myself choosing them more often.

I'm not interested in an Aeropress, Chemex, or Vietnamese drip; I'm interested in espresso. I drink straight espresso, and find even what I would consider poorly pulled shots to be tolerable. I roast my own beans, so I figure I've got the most important part down. I appreciate the suggestions, and I know that one day I will get around to them in my coffee journey. For now though, manual drip and French press is my daily coffee. A double shot of fresh roasted bean once in a while is more than worth the effort for me.

I'll second the recommendation of an AeroPress. It doesn't make espresso, but it makes very good Americano-style coffee. If I were on a budget, that's what I'd go for.

As for a grinder, how many drinks do you plan on making per day and at one time? If you'll just be doing one or two, may I suggest a Porlex hand grinder. That's what I use, and it's very, very good. There is another one made by Kyocera that uses the same burrs, but I don't recommend it (I have both, so this is based on my own personal use). The Porlex is very good at grinding for espresso and AeroPress. Or, you could go with a new or restored Zassenhaus. Give these guys a try and see what they have: http://www.orphanespresso.com/. I've bought some cleaning supplies from them before, and they have an immaculate reputation on coffee-related discussion forums.

As for alternative espresso machines, there is the Le'Lit PL041 that seems to be okay as well. I'd suggest a Gaggia Classic over a Gaggia Baby as it seems to have a better reputation. You may want to consider an entry-level La Pavoni lever machine, but they come with their own frustrations.

And, like StillShaving said, "Fresh, good coffee beans". Fresh, for espresso, means using them up around 7-14 days from the day they were roasted.

I roast my own beans, and currently use a Zassenhaus grinder. Is the Zassenhaus regular box mill a good enough grinder for espresso? If so I'd be thrilled to hear that. If that were the case I could use my hand grinder exclusively for espresso and buy a Baratza for $200 and use it for everything else.

The Le'Lit looks excellent, so I'll have to do a little bit more research. I would absolutely love a lever machine as I am obsessed with challenging hobbies, but they all seem to be out of my range. If there is a place I can find a new hand-lever machine for under $600 then I'd probably lean most towards that option.

Lots of coffee geeks are more than happy with their non PIDed Silvia and Gaggias. IIRC, the baby is just a Classic with more plastic
Some guys find that the doser gets in the way, others like the doser not to dose, but to dispense coffee more evenly into their PF baskets

This is what I wanted to hear. Do you have experience with pid'd and non-pid'd models to offer up your experiences on how drastic the difference is?

I like my doser to help break up clumps, thus improving consistency of distribution and puck density.

Since I would be pulling one to two shots a day at the absolute maximum, would a doserless grinder be more up my alley? Seems that I'd be wasting a decent amount of coffee with a doser model at my low volume.

 

[SlowRain]

I roast my own beans, and currently use a Zassenhaus grinder. Is the Zassenhaus regular box mill a good enough grinder for espresso? If so I'd be thrilled to hear that. If that were the case I could use my hand grinder exclusively for espresso and buy a Baratza for $200 and use it for everything else.

Some can, some can't. If you already have one, I say give it a try and see how the shots pull and what the espresso tastes like.

 

[Jasonian]

Since I would be pulling one to two shots a day at the absolute maximum, would a doserless grinder be more up my alley? Seems that I'd be wasting a decent amount of coffee with a doser model at my low volume.

No. A diesel truck can carry more than 2 tons. Does that mean that it can't be driven to the store to pick up groceries when it's not hauling more than 2 tons?

It's just a tool. How you use that tool is what matters. Pulling the doser handle repeatedly and quickly is what breaks up the clumps. Turn the grinder on, start dosing, turn the grinder off before full, finish dosing.

Distribute, sweep, tamp. It's not a tremendous waste of coffee.

Doserless has its fans, but I have never been able to get the same quality of distribution and evenness of puck density with one. There was once this technique called the Weiss Distribution Technique which involved a yogurt cup as a funnel and a dissecting needle as an agitator. I felt that it changed the result in the cup since it encouraged the vertical separation of different particle sizes. Whether that is something to worry about is debatable.

I didn't like it because it isn't repeatable or consistent on the bar. I am better off developing techniques that ARE repeatable and consistent on the bar. Also, the time it takes is an issue as well.

Of course, for home practice, everyone has their own opinion, and its adaptation to the commercial environment is a non-issue. The issue then becomes one of the effectiveness of density distribution and particle size vertical distribution... and whether these occurrences make any significant impact on the resulting espresso.

Of course, you could just live with the clumps.

 

[GarageBoy]

I don't own a Gaggia, but I've seen this thread reposted a few times
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/worth-it-to-pid-gaggia-espresso-t2756.html

 

[Jasonian]

I don't own a Gaggia, but I've seen this thread reposted a few times
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/worth-it-to-pid-gaggia-espresso-t2756.html

I remember that thread. Boy is that thing old.

It reminds me of my thoughts on the matter years ago. The boiler is only 3.5oz. The pump forces fresh (non-heated) water into the boiler to build the pressure.

What does this mean?
It means that the temperature is dropping throughout the duration of the shot. While a PID will make the start-temp consistent from shot to shot, it will not hold the temperature for the duration of the shot.

What's the solution?
The solution is the copper pre-heating tube mentioned in the thread. Basically, a bunch of copper tube is wrapped around the boiler for the water to flow through from the tank to the boiler. The concept is that the ambient heat from the aluminum boiler will help to pre-heat the water flowing into the boiler to reduce the temperature reduction during the shot.

Does it work?
My gut says yes, but I haven't tried it myself. I had planned to, but then I just bought a HX instead.

In other words, I don't think it's worth it. When I was sporting my old Gaggia, I learned to recognize (by sight) what the water dance looked like as it correlated to results in the cup. I activated the steam switch during the shot for a heat-boost to prevent the inevitable temperature drop.

I didn't have a Scace device, so I cannot verify how well it worked. However, the PID is only going to play with the same heating elements. Basically, it will do the same thing that I did, but based on a target temperature instead of by gut feeling and experience.

Is it worth it?
That depends on the person. I never considered it to be worth it to me, personally, but there are those who would find it to be worth it. I just think people should know what the situation is before buying and installing a PID on a 3.5oz boiler.

 

[GarageBoy]

Yup and before those guys know it, they'll have $1000+ into their $400 machine.

 

[wintermute2]

Can't help you on the grinder, since I'm pathetic and use pods and preground coffee, but anything in the Gaggia line is awesome. No matter what model you purchase (except the autos), the interior workings are pretty much all the same, with commercial grade brass portafilters. And the extra beauty of them is that they use standard plumbing fittings, so you can do a lot of the repairs yourself if you need to. The only difference between models are the shell, button, etc.

 

[thanks]

It seems to me that a Gaggia Baby and a really nice grinder would do wonders for me. I'll save for the Gaggia first as I have a nice Zassenhaus, and then I'll get the grinder after.

 

[wintermute2]

It seems to me that a Gaggia Baby and a really nice grinder would do wonders for me. I'll save for the Gaggia first as I have a nice Zassenhaus, and then I'll get the grinder after.

Get yourself the Gaggia Evolution and apply the extra $200 to the grinder. Really the only difference between that and the Baby is window dressing.

 

[bones59]

I would absolutely love a lever machine as I am obsessed with challenging hobbies, but they all seem to be out of my range. If there is a place I can find a new hand-lever machine for under $600 then I'd probably lean most towards that option.

Run! This would be a challenge indeed.

 

[takeshi]

So, from my research, it seems to be between two machines as far as buying new. The Gaggia Baby, and of course Miss Silvia.

As much as I like my 8 year old Silvia I wouldn't recommend buying one today -- particularly if you have a tight budget. Lelit's PL041 seems frequently recommended for those that have used (aging) data out there for research and think that the Silvia is the way to go. I have no experience with the thing so I can't make a recommendation for or against it.

Both pretty much need a PID from my understanding which is roughly $250 additional cost.

A PID makes it easier to use but you can always temp surf. If your budget is tight you can compensate to a degree with effort on your part. If I wouldn't recommend a Silvia I definitely wouldn't recommend one with the added cost of a PID. You start to wander into HX pricing at that point.

Any other things to know, and are the differences in price between the two justified?

That's impossible to answer. Worth is always highly subjective. One person may see the added cost of the Silvia as worthwhile whereas the other doesn't.

As for grinders, is it pretty much down to the Rancilio Rocky?

The Rocky's not the most cost effective choice out there either though I don't have good alternatives to offer. You might want to also hit up Coffee Geek and Home Barista. Definitely stretch what you can for the grinder. If your counter is amenable then don't overlook used Mazzers.

Why would anyone want a doserless model?

Personal preference, again. If you're OCD about stale grounds dosers tend to be a pain to clean. I'm not and I prefer having a doser as I can do other things while the grinder is working and the doser helps to break up clumps.