Best Progression Using My Stones

[Saloogie]

Hey guys, so I have some stones and I'm wondering what is the best Progression to use. Some are really nice stones and some are cheapo box set whetstones.

The 3 smallish stones on the left are unknowns to me and I'm not sure they have any use with SR's. One however, top left is a Standard barbers shape-up stone which could be useful.

Next the bottom 3, from left to right are the cheapish box set whetstones, a lapping stone and two combo's 400/1000 and a 3000/8000. I've only used the 8000, and it seemed to work ok.

The above top 3 are a small hard Ark(white) a black surgical Ark and a Vermont Slate with a slurry stone.

My guess is going from the 8000 to the small hard Ark to the black surgical to the Vermont for the finish would be the way to go. But maybe the black Ark should be the finisher? The black Ark and Vermont feel similar. They say the Vermont is about 8-10k.

I just bought the black surgical Ark. That should be used with oil only, correct?

What progression would you use if these were yours? Thanks in advance!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

What are the brand of the synthetic combo stones?

Natural stones cannot be grit rated, when vendors do, be wary.

Bottom line is, can a natural stone improve an 8k edge? If not leave them out of your progression, they only add more variables.

A simple set of quality synthetic stones, 1.4 & 8k will simplify your learning to hone. Your X brand of 1,4, & 8k stones are exactly like everyone else’s of the same brand, grit, and will produce the exact same results, if proper technique is applied.

Your natural stones, who knows what they are made of or grit size?

Learn synthetics, once mastered add natural stones. Modern Slates are all over the map in terms of grit and grit size.

 

[Saloogie]

Thanks for the response.

The synthetic stones are Benicci. Made in China/Designed in USA, whatever that actually means! Lol

I've only used the 8k, as most of my blades have been close to shave ready, so I never went to the lower stones.Then I went onto the Vermont for a finishing. Seems to work pretty well, but like we almost all do, I'm chasing perfection.

So you think I should just try the 8k and not go any further? Should I start out lower even though the bevel is good? And forego the natural stones for now?

Lots of questions!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Take a look at an old thread of a new honer learning to hone a razor.

Google, (My Second Try at Honing).

There are good micrographs of his edges from 1,4,8 $12k. If your stones are not producing similar edges when looked at with a 60x handheld scope, you may need to upgrade your stones. Carson MicroBrite 60-100x scope $15.

Those type of Chinese stone are very soft and are very difficult for a new honer to get a quality shaving edge from them for that reason, they self-slurry like crazy.

You can buy a King 1/6 combo stone of known quality for about $25, and a good name brand 8k for about $80, capable of producing a stellar shaving edge.

If you have a shave ready razor, you can maintain it on an 8k, with paste you can bump it up to 20-30k.

 

[Saloogie]

Take a look at an old thread of a new honer learning to hone a razor.

Google, (My Second Try at Honing).

There are good micrographs of his edges from 1,4,8 $12k. If your stones are not producing similar edges when looked at with a 60x handheld scope, you may need to upgrade your stones. Carson MicroBrite 60-100x scope $15.

Those type of Chinese stone are very soft and are very difficult for a new honer to get a quality shaving edge from them for that reason, they self-slurry like crazy.

You can buy a King 1/6 combo stone of known quality for about $25, and a good name brand 8k for about $80, capable of producing a stellar shaving edge.

If you have a shave ready razor, you can maintain it on an 8k, with paste you can bump it up to 20-30k.

Yeah, I don't think my 8k is that good. Even after a good stropping, it didn't leave me with a very good shave ready edge and it didn't look great under magnification. It was pulling and dragging. I think, as you mentioned, it's a soft Chinese stone and probably ok for knives and such, but not for a SR. That's what I bought them for years ago.

So I went to the surgical Ark and wow, it left a very nice edge. It's the first time I used it. I stropped and shaved with it and it was very smooth and left me with a 2 pass BBS, no nicks. Next time out, I'll try the Vermont Stone and see how it compares.

But in time, I can see I'll need better lower K whetstones. The Ark and Vermont might be really good finishers, but I'll need something better to start out. I've heard of the King, so maybe I'll look into that and a nice 8K.

I'm going to Google that thread. Thanks!

 

[Wid]

Going from a mediocre 8k to a black ark is a bit of a jump imo. You still won’t get the best out of the ark. You need to have at least a good 8K and even better a great 12k or equivalent.

 

[Saloogie]

Going from a mediocre 8k to a black ark is a bit of a jump imo. You still won’t get the best out of the ark. You need to have at least a good 8K and even better a great 12k or equivalent.

Yeah, I'm sure you're correct.

I know you can't label a natural stone with a grit number, but Griffin says the Vermont is approximately an 8-10k. Would that be a good stone to use before the Ark or do you think a synthetic with an exact 8k grit is needed?

With what I have on hand, I'm thinking the hard ark, (6K'ish they say), then the Vermont and finish with the surgical Ark might be a good progression. My cheap whetstones are out of the picture. Just to soft I think.

 

[Wid]

That would certainly be better than the 8K. Go 8K to the slate to the Ark.

 

[Frank Shaves]

To touch up a truly shave ready edge, you can sometimes use a finisher but sometimes you will need to go back to 8k.

Get yourself a high quality 8k and keep using your Vermont slate and hard black Ark. you will need to play with the different stones to really understand their capabilities.

I would look at the Shapton RockStar 8k as well as the other offerings from Naniwa and Shapton.

 

[Christian1212]

I personally wouldn't use any of those except the larger Ark and Vermont slate. If not wanting to get a set of stones I would send my razor off to be honed and touch up on the large ark when it starts to pull. I don't have any experience with the Vermont slate so I can't say what it can and can't do. Need to make sure your ark is nice and flat though (once there it doesn't need to be maintained if just using straights on it).

Will also add in a couple other notes. The above will work but financially I think it makes since to get a set of stones to maintain your razor. I would save the time spent trying to make cheap synthetics work by trying to make extra $ if needed to get a good set of stones (I recommend rockstar 1k, 4k, 8k or 2k, 6k, 10k + atoma 600 lapping plate). Getting a usable edge can be very very easy with the right stones that are kept flat, and a razor that isn't warped like crazy.

Honing a janky razor on synthetic stones with bad grit ratings is tough for anyone. Even worse if the person doesn't know what a good edge is yet. Spend the money on a good set up and save yourself time and frustration. If you have to set a low budget try a want to buy post and look for naniwas/shaptons/ maybe a Norton if the price is really good.

 

[duke762]

In my world, everything ends up on an Ark. Bevel set and refine 1K, refine more 3k, prefinish 8k, finish Black Ark. Yeah man, that should work. Yes, a stone upgrade is in order when financially feasible. I would avoid the King hones and try to get Shapton Pro's. Buy once, cry once.

While learning to hone, simplify the progression as much as possible to cut down on variables. Synthetics are a known quantity and so are Surgical Black and Translucent Arks.....mostly. There are plenty of substandard Blacks out there, I think yours will work fine. Trans stones more or less, speak for themselves as to quality. If the Vermont slate is working well and giving a shaving edge, try the Surgical Black afterwards. Repetition, patience, and lots of practice win the day. It's a very satisfying feeling to master this and actually a forever learning journey to continue.

Unsolicited Advice About Arks - My favorite subject
All hones used on razors need to be flat! Arks work best uber flat. Use standard loose grit lapping procedures and get the final flatness and finish on 600 grit 3M wet/dry paper. Every one does it different, this is what works for me. Don't get hung up on lapping finish details yet, master everything one way and repeat.

I use WD40 with excellent results and it's the only thing I use on harder Arks. Water and soap, glycerine, frog lube are some other solutions that I have heard suggested. I would suggest choosing one and staying with it until mastery is achieved for consistency and to eliminate variables.

Arks are unforgiving. They are so hard, one mishap with the blade can ruin the edge in short order. Only go to the Ark with your best shaving 8k edges. The Ark requires your very best edge to be able to refine it more. A 6" Surgical Black may require around 200 or more perfect laps. Yes, perfect laps.

You are going to need some kind of scope or magnifier. I'm crazy about the 20x to 120x Carson on Amazon.

You can do this!

 

[Frank Shaves]

I also use oil on Arks with Norton Sharpening Stone Oil and WD-40 being my favorites - in that order.

 

[Saloogie]

I personally wouldn't use any of those except the larger Ark and Vermont slate. If not wanting to get a set of stones I would send my razor off to be honed and touch up on the large ark when it starts to pull. I don't have any experience with the Vermont slate so I can't say what it can and can't do. Need to make sure your ark is nice and flat though (once there it doesn't need to be maintained if just using straights on it).

Will also add in a couple other notes. The above will work but financially I think it makes since to get a set of stones to maintain your razor. I would save the time spent trying to make cheap synthetics work by trying to make extra $ if needed to get a good set of stones (I recommend rockstar 1k, 4k, 8k or 2k, 6k, 10k + atoma 600 lapping plate). Getting a usable edge can be very very easy with the right stones that are kept flat, and a razor that isn't warped like crazy.

Honing a janky razor on synthetic stones with bad grit ratings is tough for anyone. Even worse if the person doesn't know what a good edge is yet. Spend the money on a good set up and save yourself time and frustration. If you have to set a low budget try a want to buy post and look for naniwas/shaptons/ maybe a Norton if the price is really good.

Yes, I've already decided to get a some lower grit synthetic stones. Mine are not good enough. They seem to soft.

Until then I'm going to go with my hard Ark, Vermont and then surgical Ark. I think that's a pretty good progression and should leave me with a nice shave edge. I agree, this isn't to tough once I find the right stones and progression.

Question - is my lapping stone any good, or do you think I need an Atoma or something similar?

 

[Saloogie]

In my world, everything ends up on an Ark. Bevel set and refine 1K, refine more 3k, prefinish 8k, finish Black Ark. Yeah man, that should work. Yes, a stone upgrade is in order when financially feasible. I would avoid the King hones and try to get Shapton Pro's. Buy once, cry once.

While learning to hone, simplify the progression as much as possible to cut down on variables. Synthetics are a known quantity and so are Surgical Black and Translucent Arks.....mostly. There are plenty of substandard Blacks out there, I think yours will work fine. Trans stones more or less, speak for themselves as to quality. If the Vermont slate is working well and giving a shaving edge, try the Surgical Black afterwards. Repetition, patience, and lots of practice win the day. It's a very satisfying feeling to master this and actually a forever learning journey to continue.

Unsolicited Advice About Arks - My favorite subject
All hones used on razors need to be flat! Arks work best uber flat. Use standard loose grit lapping procedures and get the final flatness and finish on 600 grit 3M wet/dry paper. Every one does it different, this is what works for me. Don't get hung up on lapping finish details yet, master everything one way and repeat.

I use WD40 with excellent results and it's the only thing I use on harder Arks. Water and soap, glycerine, frog lube are some other solutions that I have heard suggested. I would suggest choosing one and staying with it until mastery is achieved for consistency and to eliminate variables.

Arks are unforgiving. They are so hard, one mishap with the blade can ruin the edge in short order. Only go to the Ark with your best shaving 8k edges. The Ark requires your very best edge to be able to refine it more. A 6" Surgical Black may require around 200 or more perfect laps. Yes, perfect laps.

You are going to need some kind of scope or magnifier. I'm crazy about the 20x to 120x Carson on Amazon.

You can do this!

I love your first line!

Yes, Arks seem legendary and I knew I would eventually go with them for finishing. Pretty expensive though. My Vermont has been very good as well, but most guys don't know much about them. I took a risk on that one and went with what Matt at Griffin told me about them. My surgical Ark is a Pinnacle, and in its own box. I think this is a reputable brand(?) It is straight when checking with a straight edge.

My weakness is in my lower set-up stones. As I said in a couple of my posts, I'm going to try my hard Ark, which isn't super hard, 6Kish, go to my Vermont, supposedly 8Kish, and then the surgical Ark for the finish. I do know you can't apply a grit number to a stone, but I think you can approximate with some accuracy.

I didn't realize it would take 200 laps though, but I'll go the extra mile, and be very careful, if it means getting my edge right. I do have magnifying glasses that work well for checking the edge. But I'll check out that Carson magnifier.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Question - is my lapping stone any good, or do you think I need an Atoma or something similar?

I got an Atoma 400 on Amazon for a really good price. Make sure you're getting the full plate and not just the replacement abrasive sheet.

 

[Christian1212]

What Darth Scandalous suggest is what I would get. Your lapping plate is okay for a stone doing knife work, but for razors you will need something better. The diamond plates (atoma being the most recommended) are great for water stones. For your arks I recomend sand paper on a flat surface (float glass, or some sort of marble, can search on here for other recomendations). Arks will quickly wear out a diamond plate, and normally they last a very long time when flattening just water stones.

 

[Saloogie]

What Darth Scandalous suggest is what I would get. Your lapping plate is okay for a stone doing knife work, but for razors you will need something better. The diamond plates (atoma being the most recommended) are great for water stones. For your arks I recomend sand paper on a flat surface (float glass, or some sort of marble, can search on here for other recomendations). Arks will quickly wear out a diamond plate, and normally they last a very long time when flattening just water stones.

I agree. The lapping stone came with a set I bought for knives, so it makes sense it would be suited for them. It seems a little rough for SR work and my natural stones..

I'll look a little more into sandpaper for my natural stones. Thanks!

 

[A_Shaves_91]

Lots of great thoughts and insights here in this thread. I can share what I do (as I’ve had lots of coaching from pros on here) for another opinion to reference.

I use all synthetics up my progression and then finish on my natural of choice. Synthetic progression is as follows; 1.5k Shapton Pro - only if blade is in bad shape or has a minor chip, 3k Naniwa Chosera, 5k Shapton Pro, 8k Shapton Pro, 12k Naniwa Super Stone, then finish on Dan’s surgical black Ark or coticule). For me and my blade feel preference, shaving directly off the 12k is laser sharp and just a hair on the harsh side from a comfort perspective. The surgical black Ark or coticule smooths the edge out considerably and gives the blade feel a wickedly nice added dimension of comfort. The coticule finish edge in particular for me is unreal and just melts my whiskers - zero irritation. I didn’t understand the phrase “can’t cut yourself” blade feel until coming off that coticule. Fan for life.

I can second the Atoma 400 as a solid lapper - it’s great and a workhorse no question. Sounds like you might enjoy having a solid set of synthetics - lots of good recommendations as mentioned above. I think you’d enjoy the consistency they offer with still having the option / room to experiment with your naturals over time.

The journey continues - cheers!

 

[Saloogie]

Lots of great thoughts and insights here in this thread. I can share what I do (as I’ve had lots of coaching from pros on here) for another opinion to reference.

I use all synthetics up my progression and then finish on my natural of choice. Synthetic progression is as follows; 1.5k Shapton Pro - only if blade is in bad shape or has a minor chip, 3k Naniwa Chosera, 5k Shapton Pro, 8k Shapton Pro, 12k Naniwa Super Stone, then finish on Dan’s surgical black Ark or coticule). For me and my blade feel preference, shaving directly off the 12k is laser sharp and just a hair on the harsh side from a comfort perspective. The surgical black Ark or coticule smooths the edge out considerably and gives the blade feel a wickedly nice added dimension of comfort. The coticule finish edge in particular for me is unreal and just melts my whiskers - zero irritation. I didn’t understand the phrase “can’t cut yourself” blade feel until coming off that coticule. Fan for life.

I can second the Atoma 400 as a solid lapper - it’s great and a workhorse no question. Sounds like you might enjoy having a solid set of synthetics - lots of good recommendations as mentioned above. I think you’d enjoy the consistency they offer with still having the option / room to experiment with your naturals over time.

The journey continues - cheers!

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Yeah, I do need some good synthetics. Mine arent good enough for SR's. I'm just waiting on funds to come together. I like the synthetics you chose. I think my Vermont Slate is a good finisher and I also have a Pinnacle Surgical Black, but in another thread, I'm told it's not a good surgical. Apparently it's not novacular like the older stones. I have a lot of learn about stones apparently.

 

[A_Shaves_91]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Yeah, I do need some good synthetics. Mine arent good enough for SR's. I'm just waiting on funds to come together. I like the synthetics you chose. I think my Vermont Slate is a good finisher and I also have a Pinnacle Surgical Black, but in another thread, I'm told it's not a good surgical. Apparently it's not novacular like the older stones. I have a lot of learn about stones apparently.

The learning is endless! I got some great advice here on the forum when searching for a natural finisher (as I’m sure you already know) - Dan’s Whetstone (if you’re in the market for a great Ark), is where I picked up my 6x2 black surgical. Beautiful stone and they are wonderful to work with at Dan’s.