does lapping film work good?

[GC77]

I have never used films. I own synthetic Japanese stones up to a SG 20K, a La Veinette coticule and most recently a JNAT and set of nagura. I have great mentors teaching me to hone (Nelson and Buca) and know what their edges feel like when shaving. I am very happy with my year long journey. These stones and learning to use them is a satisfying zen-like exercise.

On to the relevant part of my post. I recently purchased a beautiful old Wade and Butcher FBU over an inch in width and in very good condition. I snatched it the moment it hit the bay at about 11 PM and at a BIN price that was a fraction of what I anticipated. I wanted it to look exactly as it did the day it left the factory with all the original parts intact so I sent it to a well known restoration expert. It blew my mind just how perfect it came back to me. I was expecting to have to hone it up but it showed up with a very sharp edge that was hht-4-5 from heel to toe. It shaved like a dream and continues to do so. Curious about what stones a craftsman with such talent would use I asked expecting to hear esher or JNAT (It didn't feel like a coticule edge). I was pretty surprised to hear that my beautiful old FBU was honed on lapping film after DMT bevel setting.

I will continue my journey with the stones I own but I do have a new respect for film. I do happen to enjoy my SG 20 edges when I take care to keep them very sharp but not "overdone" so my skin is clearly not averse to synthetic edges.

 

[buca3152]

While I have never used lapping paper, I am pretty sure it works as I have used some edges from others who hone with it. The real question is "Will lapping paper work for YOU?" I wish I had the answer to that question for all the various stuff I have purchased over time. For a small investment, you should get the answer fairly easily.

The $64k question! And for me it is No! But thats me. I think I tried every combination under the sun with film.

 

[Seraphim]

I have never used films. I own synthetic Japanese stones up to a SG 20K, a La Veinette coticule and most recently a JNAT and set of nagura. I have great mentors teaching me to hone (Nelson and Buca) and know what their edges feel like when shaving. I am very happy with my year long journey. These stones and learning to use them is a satisfying zen-like exercise.

On to the relevant part of my post. I recently purchased a beautiful old Wade and Butcher FBU over an inch in width and in very good condition. I snatched it the moment it hit the bay at about 11 PM and at a BIN price that was a fraction of what I anticipated. I wanted it to look exactly as it did the day it left the factory with all the original parts intact so I sent it to a well known restoration expert. It blew my mind just how perfect it came back to me. I was expecting to have to hone it up but I got a very sharp edge that was hht-4-5 from heel to toe. It shaved like a dream and continues to do so. Curious about what stones a craftsman with such talent would use I asked expecting to hear esher or JNAT (It didn't feel like a coticule edge). I was pretty surprised to hear that my beautiful ofl FBU was honed on lapping film after DMT bevel setting.

I will continue my journey with the stones I own but I do have a new respect for film. I do happen to enjoy my SG 20 edges when I take care to keep them very sharp but not "overdone" so my skin is clearly not averse to synthetic edges.

Nice plot twist!

 

[Doc226]

Nice plot twist!

Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day

 

[El-Carpaso]

Well, I still need experience with the actual shaving to know differences. I currently have the blade finished with the 10k super stone and it's hht-3/4ish. But I still feel I need to muscle through some areas (chin is the worst) so more sharpness is needed (maybe?)

I'll get to try the films after christmas so I'll post how it goes then

 

[Chaloney]

So when I started straight shaving and following b&b a year and a half ago, there was some pretty spirited debate/discussion ongoing about film vs naturals. Over time subjects changed and various other topics have come and gone. It seems that we have come full circle and we are back to film vs. Nat's again. Does that mean all the honing topics have been covered? What am I supposed to do to pass the time between shaves now?

 

[bluesman 7]

Well, I still need experience with the actual shaving to know differences. I currently have the blade finished with the 10k super stone and it's hht-3/4ish. But I still feel I need to muscle through some areas (chin is the worst) so more sharpness is needed (maybe?)

All 10k SS edges are not equal. The same goes for film or any other medium. My most recent film edges were the best film edges I've ever produced. Experience counts.

 

[BDF]

I do not think the film vs. natural stones discussion ever actually stopped- it just sort of comes and goes as an active subject.

Bored with that debate? Go to the shaving soap section and ask what the best, and I mean the VERY BEST shaving soap is. You should probably use your follow- up question to ask what kind / brand / size of brush works best with the VERY BEST soap.... once that question is answered.

Brian

So when I started straight shaving and following b&b a year and a half ago, there was some pretty spirited debate/discussion ongoing about film vs naturals. Over time subjects changed and various other topics have come and gone. It seems that we have come full circle and we are back to film vs. Nat's again. Does that mean all the honing topics have been covered? What am I supposed to do to pass the time between shaves now?

 

[BDF]

Yeah, another funny thing about lapping film; because it is 'easy to use', it seems that a lot of people expect you can just leave a razor in the same room with a sheet of lapping film overnight and it just.... works. Honing a razor to a good or better shaving edge is no small or non- skilled task IMO. The most frustrating part of the learning curve, at least for me, was the inconsistency in the results; sometimes I would get a fantastic edge with little effort or time. The next razor just would not hone to a good edge, and the third razor would not hone so that it would cut hair. And I had absolutely no idea why that was or what I was doing differently or incorrectly. It takes quite a bit of finesse to put an edge on a piece of steel that is only a few millionths of an inch thick and not full of voids and jagged spots. But at the same time, we are all trying to hone in a few minutes rather than three days :-( It took me a long time to learn how to put an edge on a razor consistently and efficiently, assuming that I am actually doing that even now.

Brian

All 10k SS edges are not equal. The same goes for film or any other medium. My most recent film edges were the best film edges I've ever produced. Experience counts.

 

[Seraphim]

I Colonial is the very best soap.


So..that's done with.

 

[Chaloney]

I do not think the film vs. natural stones discussion ever actually stopped- it just sort of comes and goes as an active subject.

Bored with that debate? Go to the shaving soap section and ask what the best, and I mean the VERY BEST shaving soap is. You should probably use your follow- up question to ask what kind / brand / size of brush works best with the VERY BEST soap.... once that question is answered.

Brian

Oh GOD no. Those soap people take things way to seriously! (And everyone knows it's XX-CENSORED-XX anyway...)

 

[kcb5150]

Everyone has different skin and hair as well as different preferences for edge characteristics. I'd say for some ppl, film is probably the greatest thing ever, but for others, a really benign coticule edge is probably the best way to go.. Or if they have sensitive skin but want a touch more go a coti edge pushed on a trans ark or a cf... I will say that unless I could afford an elaborate shapton progression as those absolutely refuse to clog/load in any serious way, film would look very attractive to me if I wanted synth edges.The loading is what really annoys me with most man made hones.

 

[BDF]

OFFTOPIC: you may well be right- it bumped Tabac out of first place for me and I went through a lot of soaps before that happened. The main competition to I Coloniali for me is Speick and La Toja, both in stick form. And La Toja, to me at least, is like catnip- I almost cannot walk by the stuff without giving it a sniff; I think I even rotate my head a little like a cat does with catnip....

Brian

I Colonial is the very best soap.


So..that's done with.

 

[kcb5150]

I need to try some new soaps. I am over Cella.

 

[BDF]

Sure, I would agree with that. But how about instead of using misleading and positive words to describe those more benign (great choice with that word IMO by the way) finishes as "smooth" and the sharper, keener finishes of synthetics as "harsh", how about we use the words 'sharper' and 'less sharp'?

So to put it into context, it might go like this: film edges and pasted balsa edges are probably the absolute sharpest edges that can be put on a razor by an individual without specialized equipment. If that is too sharp for a particular person, he or she can take it down a notch or three by using a natural stone that will yield a less- sharp razor.

Very similar to DE blades: I find Feathers to be the sharpest blade I have ever tried, with Gillette 7 O'Clock yellow and green types a fairly close second. All the rest I have tried are less sharp to varying degrees, with some lacking enough keenness that they are basically ready to be thrown away after opening the package they come in. But I would never refer to those blades lacking sharpness as 'smoother', just as I would not refer to a Feather edge as 'harsh'.

Brian

Everyone has different skin and hair as well as different preferences for edge characteristics. I'd say for some ppl, film is probably the greatest thing ever, but for others, a really benign coticule edge is probably the best way to go.. Or if they have sensitive skin but want a touch more go a coti edge pushed on a trans ark or a cf... I will say that unless I could afford an elaborate shapton progression as those absolutely refuse to clog/load in any serious way, film would look very attractive to me if I wanted synth edges.The loading is what really annoys me with most man made hones.

 

[kcb5150]

I really don't think the smoothness is all to do with sharpness, but the characteristics of how any given medium cuts. Coti edges really do seem benign. Usually inadequate sharpness equals nicks and burn worse across the board with any skill level than a maxed out edge could in the hands of any given person, but a lot of coti edges are pretty hard to do damage with, yet they can get you bbs without much trouble. As far as naturals go, I find they have very favorable characteristics, but they are all different and that is a pain in the ***. WYSIWYG with synths if you stick to one system and that is a virtue for sure. I find everyone makes good points on the natural vs synth debate but there are so many gray areas and variables it will never be settled.

 

[BDF]

Given the way a slurry appears to work (like millions of tiny pebbles that are rolling under and scoring the edge being 'rolled' over them) and the SEM images we have seen of those edges, it seems that any edge made from any stone using a slurry has a bit of what I would call 'edge peening' going on and that directly affects sharpness. In fact, it is the opposite of sharpness and serves to generally 'beat up' the final edge. That, coupled with a very slight rounding or radiusing of the bevel seems to combine to give a natural edge its characteristics. At least as far as I have been able to ascertain given the limited information out there.

Generally speaking, synthetics used without a slurry will not do either of those two things; the bevel faces are merely abraded away leaving a generally sharp 'V' shape and sometimes, unfortunately, a foil edge which is never desireable as far as I can imagine. I believe that is what the paper under the film does- it gives what would normally be a two very flat planes forming the 'V' a bit of a bevel which greatly reduces the chances of a foil edge, and provides a sharper included angle on the razor not unlike the way a natural slurry leaves behind.

The really amusing part to me is that generally, natural stones and slurries leave a rougher finish that a strop tends to smooth out and make more keen. I believe the identical strop tends to radius the edge of the very sharp 'V' left by non- slurry based synthetics and so accomplishes almost the very same thing from opposite directions.

Certainly all of this is supposition though and really no one can qualify or quantify words such as 'smoothness' or 'harshness' as it applies to a shaving edge. As you say, far too many variables and a lot of the finer points are not well understood IMO (that is NOT to say there is any magic in any method, just saying that some of the intricacies of, say, slurry breaking down are not well defined if at all defined).

But generally, I agree with Alfredo (Doc226): try several different finishes from different honers and then try to move in the direction of the one(s) you like best.

My point earlier was, and still is, that lapping film is not an inferior method to hone a razor used for shaving in my opinion or experience. I do not think of lapping film as a 'starting point' until one chooses to use a 'better' method because I do not believe other methods are superior or better, just different.

Brian

I really don't think the smoothness is all to do with sharpness, but the characteristics of how any given medium cuts. Coti edges really do seem benign. Usually inadequate sharpness equals nicks and burn worse across the board with any skill level than a maxed out edge could in the hands of any given person, but a lot of coti edges are pretty hard to do damage with, yet they can get you bbs without much trouble. As far as naturals go, I find they have very favorable characteristics, but they are all different and that is a pain in the ***. WYSIWYG with synths if you stick to one system and that is a virtue for sure. I find everyone makes good points on the natural vs synth debate but there are so many gray areas and variables it will never be settled.

 

[kcb5150]

I always finish my coti edges under a tap. I also tend to buy cotis almost as hard as arks, so that is another thing. I don't think it is inferior as a medium at all, just a different way to get there.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I like to point out that the second half of this "blind test" was never carried out. You know, where Doc226 supplied film edges and Seraphim supplied JNat edges.

That would establish which was simpler or less technique-specific; and would offer little towards determining which surface produced a better edge provided the user was familiar with it. I doubt many people would say that a Jnat is as easy to purchase or use as film; but it was stated that the idea that Jnat's offered superior results was conjured purely as an explanation of cost, and didn't reflect reality, when the only attempt at testing that does seem to indicate that it is in fact based on real differences between the resulting edges.

I don't put much stock in the test, I do put stock in the opinions and results of dozens of honers with years of experience.The majority of shavers I know who finish on synths do so because they aren't inclined to try or learn a natural system. They're content with their synthetic finishes. I haven't met many who've tried several natural finishes and chose their synthetic finishes over them. Taking the test as an example, how many film honers have tried one of doc's edges and decided that their synthetic edges actually shaved them better? Seraphim? I'm guessing that's it. And that's a very biased test in the synths favor, because I doubt anyone would argue that we aren't overwhelmingly inclined to prefer our own edges to others, except in cases where the others is plainly superior.

Overwhelmingly the majority of shavers I know who finish on naturals HAVE used synthetics extensively, and simply prefer their chosen finishers. Arguing that people's preference for naturals is based on anything other than an advantage that natural finishers actually have seems like quite a stretch to me. It would be like saying that people only like chocolate because of Hershey's ads, chocolate is actually extremely disgusting.

 

[SliceOfLife]

But I would never refer to those blades lacking sharpness as 'smoother', just as I would not refer to a Feather edge as 'harsh'.

Brian

Lots of people like to think that "harsh" edges come from an edge being too sharp. From what I've seen it actually comes from edges lacking in certain area's of sharpness (and maintaining cutting ability by overcompensating in other area's)... Basically it's an unbalanced edge. You could polish a 50* grind angle to 0.001 microns, it's still gonna be dull compared to your typical razor edge. Likewise you could take a 5* edge to 1k grit and even if it could hold up, it wouldn't be a great shave. Those are just two very rough explanations of edge sharpness taken into account. The topography of the bevel leading up to the edge has many characteristics that impact how a razor cuts, and edges that are "harsh" are so because some element of geometry or topography is inferior to how it would be on a smooth shaving edge. It's not sharper. It's just duller in a way that is not apparent macroscopically.

This is why increasing grit to infinity does not necessarily and infinitely improve the edge. Even ignoring the limits of the material you're sharpening; there are changes in the edge that we are in control of which are not directly or solely related to particle size. It's simply that we often don't understand these well enough that we ever focus on them, and when we do, it's usually considered just an assumed element of experience or common sense. Take for instance how we generally hone or at least finish edge leading on hard abrasive surfaces; we may not know specifically how or why this has proven the best way to do things, but we don't need to because we just do it. The are certainly other elements to honing which do not naturally turn out in our favor without our having to consider or learn them; these are often going to be the unexplained differences between why one finish is "smoother" or sharper than another when we can't explain it directly under the simplistic understanding most of us have of the mechanics of a cutting edge (angle and refinement).