Dissapearing lather with 2-band badger brushes and tallow-based soaps...

[Coffee Addict]

Hi, gents,

So, I've waited about a year before posting this because I've been experimenting with my newer brushes.
I was a shavemac D01 user for about 9 years until it started shedding like crazy, sent an email to Bernd, agreed to send him the brush and all of a sudden he got lost, never answered any of my emails, nothing, even though I got the notification from Fedex DE that the item was successfully delivered. I insisted, but never got even the slightest sign of an answer. I don't know why most people say they have good customer service but this was my experience. I didn't want to escalate I pretended it didn't happen.

Since then, I moved to artisan-made brush handles and I'd buy badger knots directly from Chinese manufacturers like Boti and Oumo.
All of the knots I've got from them are great, the finest, best badger and great Silvertip too. They perform well with any soap or cream I've tried like Proraso, MWF, Barrister and Mann, Phoenix Artisan, Palmolive shaving cream, Lodrino, Tabac, Noble Otter, Wholly Kaw, you name it.

Very easy to lather, they're very soft silvertip brushes (the finest not that much but they lather great too) no matter if they're small or giant I've got these brushes from 20 to 30 mm knots. No matter what size I use or what soap or cream I use, the silvertip (being Chinese, or European like Rooney, or my lost Shavemac) and the finest do very well lathering anything too.

The water in my area is not soft, but it's not hard either never had a problem with that. BUT, here comes my problem...

I've got two 2-band badger brushes and had another one which I couldn't but give away to a friend.
- Boti Captain Ffinest 2-band in 26 mm
- Oumo Manchuria Finest 2-band in 28 mm
- Oumo LotusTip Manchuria in 24 mm (this is the one I gave away)

I've used this brushes with many vegan base soaps and creams, with VERY little loading time they make a ton of lather. If I load more, they lather great too but I need too much more water. Even my big Manchuria with 28 mm doesn't need too much loading time with PAA or other non-tallow products, etc. The same for the Boti Captain Finest 2-band...

THEN, if I try to lather any tallow-based soap or cream like Barrister, or Wholly Kaw, no matter if I load for 30 seconds or a minute, I can't get a decent lather UNLESS I load for at least two or three minutes. If I load less, the build-up only dissapears on my face or in the bowl...

With a 3-band silvertip, or best badger, I can load PAA for about 5 seconds (yes, only 5 seconds) and get a ton of lather. For the case of a tallow-based, 10 seconds is enough for a ton of lather.

I don't know if there's something wrong in the combination of 2-bands + tallow products or what. But if I load the same amount of time I load a vegan soap with a 2-band badger brush, or any soap or cream no matter tallow or vegan but with a 3-band badger, then I can't get a good lather very quickly.

Here's what I looks like I want to make this easier to understand (I'm more of a soap user):

3-Band badger + vegan soaps + 5-10 seconds loading time = tons of lather (for at least three passes)
3-Band badger + tallow soaps + 5-10 seconds loading time = tons of lather (at least three passses too)
3-Band badger + vegan or tallow soaps + 1 minute loading time = lather is too thick and I need to use TOO MUCH water. I've found I don't need too much loading time with a 3-band silvertip unless it's a 5 or 6 passes shave which I don't really need to do.

2-band badger + vegan-based soap + 5-10 seconds loading time = tons of lather (yes, enough for at least three passses too)

2-band badger + tallow soap + 5-10 seconds loading time = small build-up dissapears in seconds
2-band badger + tallow soap + 1 minute loading time = lather appears (either face or bowl)... then dissapears...
2-band badger + tallow soap + 2 minutes loading time = decent lather, but not really consistent, more like of a thin lather
2-band badger + tallow soap + 3 minutes loading time = Finally, same result as with 3-band badger brushes TONS OF LATHER for three passes...

I used my Casio G-Shock's timer to measure this. Also, I always soak my brushes in a mug with warm water while I shower. That makes a soaking time of about 5 minutes.

For the case of 2-band, I even tried not soaking the brush while I shower only 15-20 second under running water but same poor performance with tallow-based products.

So, do you have any idea why my 2-bands require SUCH A LONG loading time to get a good lather in comparison with any other badger brush?
Does tallow hate the 2-band badgers? Anyone else experimented this too?

Sorry if reading this was tiring for you.
I'd really like to get some feedback.

Thanks for your time,
Yours,
Coffee Addict

 

[APBinNCA]

Sorry to be so blunt, I did read your whole post, but try a brush cleaner and then see if you still have the same trouble. I have and it solved the problem.

 

[Coffee Addict]

Sorry to be so blunt, I did read your whole post, but try a brush cleaner and then see if you still have the same trouble. I have and it solved the problem.

What brush cleaner did you use?

Many thanks!

 

[Hu3ir0 Hu3Hu3]

Have you tried washing with dish soap?

 

[APBinNCA]

What brush cleaner did you use?

Many thanks!

I use the set from Ethos, but many report that the Zingari Man one works well.

Restore Brush Care Set

Set includes Restore Clarifying Brush Cleaner and Odor Eliminator and Restore Brush Conditioning Treatment, two full-sized 4 oz / 120 ml bottles.

ethosgroomingessentials.com

 

[PLANofMAN]

I'm confused. What exactly was supposed to happen once you sent the brush to Shavemac? Did you pay for a replacement knot? Without more context, I assume he looked at it, decided it wasn't a manufacturing defect and threw it in the trash.

If the same thing happened to me, I'd buy a new Shavemac D01 two-band knot and replace it. There really isn't anything else out there that is the same as the D01 hair.

 

[Capt. Pat]

You might try cleaning your brushes. The phenomenon described is unlike anything I've ever experienced with my badger brushes, though I don't have any Chinese knots in my inventory, so that's a point of difference. My Chubby 2 conceals a lot of soap it gives it up readily and it doesn't matter if it has tallow.

I've had good service from Shavemac and Bernd over the years.

 

[spacemonkey42]

Perhaps you might want to try measuring by weight to see how much soap you load in each case. Disappearing lather is almost always too little soap. If you weighed how much each brush loaded, you could see if some took more time to pick up soap. Then you could also see how it worked on your face once you had used the same amount of product (even if different load times). Just an experiment to consider. Good luck!

 

[azwetshaver]

Why does your 2 band brush require a longer load time?......

Several factors affect load time. Knot type, size, density, all affect load time. Is your 2 band the same knot size? The same density? Knots that are larger and more dense, require more soap..

A cheaper alternative to artisan brush cleaners is vinegar and water. Fill your sink about half way and add a cup of vinegar. Place your brushes in the sink and soak for 20 minutes. Then one by one "hand lather" each brush in the vinegar/water mix. Once all brushes have been worked, drain the mix. Rinse each brush under warm running water. This will clean brushes and remove all residual soap.

 

[Coffee Addict]

Have you tried washing with dish soap?

Not yet. Does it work?

 

[Coffee Addict]

I use the set from Ethos, but many report that the Zingari Man one works well.

Restore Brush Care Set

Set includes Restore Clarifying Brush Cleaner and Odor Eliminator and Restore Brush Conditioning Treatment, two full-sized 4 oz / 120 ml bottles.

ethosgroomingessentials.com

Thanks a lot! I might try it.

 

[Coffee Addict]

I'm confused. What exactly was supposed to happen once you sent the brush to Shavemac? Did you pay for a replacement knot? Without more context, I assume he looked at it, decided it wasn't a manufacturing defect and threw it in the trash.

If the same thing happened to me, I'd buy a new Shavemac D01 two-band knot and replace it. There really isn't anything else out there that is the same as the D01 hair.

We agreed, via email, that he would replace the knot. That brush was maybe 8 or 9 years old and shedding. He told me he would replace the knot for about 80 euro. I told him my paypal account for charge but told me to wait until he had finished repairing the brush. A few days later I sent him the brush and told him that I sent the brush to his address following his advice for customs clearance (indicate a price under 20 dollars or something like that). He told me that he had lost control of my order because he has been in poor health recently but that he would notify me when the brush arrived. Never answered me again.

 

[Coffee Addict]

Perhaps you might want to try measuring by weight to see how much soap you load in each case. Disappearing lather is almost always too little soap. If you weighed how much each brush loaded, you could see if some took more time to pick up soap. Then you could also see how it worked on your face once you had used the same amount of product (even if different load times). Just an experiment to consider. Good luck!

Thank you! I might experiment a little bit more then.

 

[Coffee Addict]

Why does your 2 band brush require a longer load time?......

Several factors affect load time. Knot type, size, density, all affect load time. Is your 2 band the same knot size? The same density? Knots that are larger and more dense, require more soap..

A cheaper alternative to artisan brush cleaners is vinegar and water. Fill your sink about half way and add a cup of vinegar. Place your brushes in the sink and soak for 20 minutes. Then one by one "hand lather" each brush in the vinegar/water mix. Once all brushes have been worked, drain the mix. Rinse each brush under warm running water. This will clean brushes and remove all residual soap.

Loading time with my 20 mm 3-band silvertip is 5 seconds and I get tons of lather. Loading time with my 30mm 3-band silvertip is 10 seconds and tons of lather. My 2-bands are smaller than 30 mm. One is 26 mm and the other one 28 mm. But I was thinking that the tips of the 2-bands might be too soft to pick up soap quickly... maybe?

 

[PLANofMAN]

Why does your 2 band brush require a longer load time?......

Several factors affect load time. Knot type, size, density, all affect load time. Is your 2 band the same knot size? The same density? Knots that are larger and more dense, require more soap..

A cheaper alternative to artisan brush cleaners is vinegar and water. Fill your sink about half way and add a cup of vinegar. Place your brushes in the sink and soak for 20 minutes. Then one by one "hand lather" each brush in the vinegar/water mix. Once all brushes have been worked, drain the mix. Rinse each brush under warm running water. This will clean brushes and remove all residual soap.

What on earth is "artisan brush cleaners?" There's professional cosmetic brush cleaning products, which work pretty decently on shave brushes, but aren't any super magical combination of ingredients. Most tend to be heavy on the sodium laurel sulfate and other detergents/surfactants. Borax and water work pretty good too, but there are concerns that the borax strips out too many natural oils. I would be concerned that vinegar would have a similar effect.

A 50/50 mix of olive oil and dawn dish soap is what I have usually seen recommended over the years to clean and rejuvenate brushes without harming the hair or bristles.

 

[musicman1951]

So strange. I have an SOC 2 band and it loads better than most brushes. I'm betting on the cleaning helping, but even at that a 3 minute load is crazy.

 

[Rudy Vey]

This all makes no sense to me, sorry. If three band loads fine, a two-band should do the same, with the same effort. I see you are in Mexico, I have been many times to Mexico (prolly 40+) and in many different cities (not the vacation areas), and in all these places the water was crap. Water I have experienced is extremely hard, and/or highly alkaline. Some hotels provide a better quality water at the sink, so you can use it for teeth brushing/ washing your face and maybe even drink - often a label is applied to the mirror informing one about this.
However, if water is an issue, it would affect both a two or a three band brush. I would recommend to use for some tests distilled water and see if this gives you the same results.
In all the years I have used brushes with cream and soaps, I never have done a special cleaning of my brush. Even before we had a softener. After use, I rinse my brush out well under running water, making sure it runs into the knot from the top while I "milk" the knot, i.e. squeezing. Afterwards, a good shake to get most the water out, and done.

EDIT: have you tried a cream?? Does it behave the same with either type of badger?? I always use cream when traveling, easier to use just get a snurdle out of the tube into the brush.

 

[Coffee Addict]

This all makes no sense to me, sorry. If three band loads fine, a two-band should do the same, with the same effort. I see you are in Mexico, I have been many times to Mexico (prolly 40+) and in many different cities (not the vacation areas), and in all these places the water was crap. Water I have experienced is extremely hard, and/or highly alkaline. Some hotels provide a better quality water at the sink, so you can use it for teeth brushing/ washing your face and maybe even drink - often a label is applied to the mirror informing one about this.
However, if water is an issue, it would affect both a two or a three band brush. I would recommend to use for some tests distilled water and see if this gives you the same results.
In all the years I have used brushes with cream and soaps, I never have done a special cleaning of my brush. Even before we had a softener. After use, I rinse my brush out well under running water, making sure it runs into the knot from the top while I "milk" the knot, i.e. squeezing. Afterwards, a good shake to get most the water out, and done.

EDIT: have you tried a cream?? Does it behave the same with either type of badger?? I always use cream when traveling, easier to use just get a snurdle out of the tube into the brush.

I'm in La Paz. A really hard water would be Tijuana-Ensenada area. Compared to that La Paz's water (2.5-hours driving time from Cabo) is very soft. In Ensenada or Tijuana I wasn't able to even wash my head comfortably because shampoo won't lather and brushing my teeth was a pain too. I've been there many times once I stayed at a friend's house while I was still a student and another was I was even younger my cousin's uncle's house both TERRIBLE water it even tastes pretty much like water from the sea.

I lived in several places here in my country including the capital too. Never had problems lathering but I'm not taking Ensenada and Tijuana into consideration here they're completely different water-supplied.

With Proraso cream or Palmolive, for example, I can get good lather with any 3 or 2-bands no problems.
I don't know if they're tallow-based or not the Palmolive I got a sample from a Barber and Proraso AFAIK it's not tallow-based.

The only problem I'm having is the combination tallow-based product with 2-band brushes.

All other combinations, no problems so far.

I always treat my brush pretty much like you do after use but I also dry it a little bit further with a soft towel. I rub the tips softly with a dry towel, no push.

I think I will use some distilled water to do a test or maybe bottled water.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

 

[Captainjonny]

I too can attest to the Ethos brush cleaning system. After using it, my brush performance (with older badger brushes) was improved. I have no idea why, but it does work. In the future I will try both the vinegar method and the dish soap/olive oil method, since both sound interesting. Thanks to everyone for the tips.