Derby Extra is now thinner, but apparently sharper and smoother

[Boring Euroshaver]

This thread came to my attention, by kind indication of forum member @lancre . So i think i can contribute a possible further point.

I bought all these blades, between March and April 2017. Bluebirds, had felt sharper to me than Derbys, despite the fact that they are made in the same factory.

I think now that it is very plausible to say, that Bluebirds are also the "new" Derby.
If you look at the packagings here:
- The green 100 pack of Derbys, has the "old" tucks and has no "new" writing on the box. The 2nd, sealed tuck that i 've put on the green box, is a free tuck that came with everyone of the 3 EJ DE89 razors i bought in April 2017. So, old tuck too.
- The blue Derby 200pack, corresponds to the "new" packaging from the OP's post and has written "New blade technology" in red fonts on it.
- The Bluebird blade, has also written "New" in red fonts on it. For the record, in one of the narrow sides, the box has written "Made in Turkey" too, and on the other side, an email, with domain "awalnet.net.sa". Which should be a Saudi Arabia domain. In Amzusebat's website, the Derby brand exists, but not the Bluebird, which indicates that Bluebird is manufactured by Amzusebat on commission for the Saudi company that has the copyright for the Bluebird brand.

I took this photo side by side, with each tuck exposed, to show better the difference and compare with the OP:



As if this wasn't enough, there is further evidence that the Bluebird in the photo is also a "new" Bluebird, since i found this older photo of a Bluebird tuck and it's different:



Coincidence? I don't think so... It seems that Bluebird and Derby are the same blade, but for copyright reasons, Amzusebat only acknowledges the Derby as her own brand, while the Bluebird is made for a Saudi Arabian company for the arabian gulf market. And when Derby revised its blade and packaging, the same happened to Bluebird.

Also, given my case, beware, since old Derby blades, seem that still exist and are sold more than 1 year after the "new Derby".

For the record, although i dislike the "old Derby" (which are the first Derbys i encountered), i like the "Bluebird". Not my favourite, but i went to 5 shaves with it, without complaining. A pleasant experience. Mind you, they are not the sharpest blades still, but they are sharp enough to give a comfortable and close shave.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

@Boring Euroshaver: Thanks for your thoughts and information. It's an interesting theory that the Bluebird is the "new" Derby. Hasn't the Bluebird been discontinued? TryABlade doesn't sell the blade. I've never measured the Bluebird, and I haven't surveyed for ratings of sharpness, smoothness, etc., so I can't say whether your theory is correct or not. Maybe we'll get there someday. Derby still sells the Bluebird.

 

[malocchio]

Shave # 4 today with the Derby Premium , just as smooth and close as shave # 1, and this is with 4 different razors so far.....Best Derby I ever used, I will push it as far as I can to test it's longevity. Any measurements on this blade ?

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Shave # 4 today with the Derby Premium , just as smooth and close as shave # 1, and this is with 4 different razors so far.....Best Derby I ever used, I will push it as far as I can to test it's longevity. Any measurements on this blade ?

No measurements yet, but we'll hopefully get there someday. It will take time for guys like you to try the blade and get a feel for it, too, so it's too early to survey for ratings. The Derby Premium sounds good. Thanks for sharing.

 

[D1dad]

It's still a Derby.

Yes!!!

 

[Boring Euroshaver]

@Boring Euroshaver: Thanks for your thoughts and information. It's an interesting theory that the Bluebird is the "new" Derby. Hasn't the Bluebird been discontinued? TryABlade doesn't sell the blade. I've never measured the Bluebird, and I haven't surveyed for ratings of sharpness, smoothness, etc., so I can't say whether your theory is correct or not. Maybe we'll get there someday. Derby still sells the Bluebird.

I started wet shaving in March. So i have no idea about whether Bluebird was discontinued or not. I know that i had no trouble finding the blades (i bought 300). In the "european tryablade", they are on sale too:

https://www.razorbladesclub.com/razorblades/

That's the european equivalent of the american tryablade. At least AFAIK. It's in Sweden. But as you can see, they also show the old Bluebird tuck. If you zoom in my photo i uploaded above, the tuck of my Bluebirds, is completely different.

It would be also interesting, if one could find a photo of old Bluebird 100packs. Did they have "new" on the packaging like mine? If no, it could be another hint that the blade is "new" now.

Given the recent issue raised in the "DorcoST300" thread, i think that the only other way one can be certain about a blade, is put it under a microscope... Because at the end, Dorco ST300 and ST301 look identical to the eye. But not to the microscope.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

@Boring Euroshaver: Maybe someone here has an answer to your question about the "old" versus "new" Bluebird packaging. If the change in packaging parallels what Derby did with the Derby Extra, then the Bluebird blade would have changed from the old to the new packaging, as discussed in the OP about how the Derby Extra got thinner and apparently got sharper and smoother, too. Regarding the Dorco blades, I've only measured two Dorco ST300 blades so far with my micrometer (for thickness) and caliper (for width, length, etc.), but I have more Dorco ST300 blades to be measured in the future. I will hopefully also measure Dorco ST301 blade samples. If average measurements line up, and especially if survey results match, too, then we'd be able to say that they are the same blade or are effectively the same blade. Statistically significant differences would basically prove that the blades are different, even without microscopic analysis.

P.S. Head's up. Don't be surprised if your reply gets edited or deleted by a moderator. I've had this happen to me more than once for unintentionally violating the forum rule on links---click on "TERMS AND RULES" below---and it seems like you violated the rule with your link to a shaving site that is not a B&B vendor.

 

[shipr]

Are these the blades we're talking about? I've tried the green pack with horizontal printing and they were alright but nothing special. The green pack with vertical printing were supposed to be better, I remember some years ago they were the default recommendation for newbies.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Are these the blades we're talking about? I've tried the green pack with horizontal printing and they were alright but nothing special. The green pack with vertical printing were supposed to be better, I remember some years ago they were the default recommendation for newbies.

Pictures of the Derby Extra, both with the older green and newer green and blue packaging, are shown in the OP. The Derby Premium is pretty new. It sounds like it's a better blade. I hear what you're saying about the Derby Extra being a default recommendation for newbies. When I started about a year ago, it might have been the first blade that I tried.

 

[Boring Euroshaver]

@Boring Euroshaver: Maybe someone here has an answer to your question about the "old" versus "new" Bluebird packaging. If the change in packaging parallels what Derby did with the Derby Extra, then the Bluebird blade would have changed from the old to the new packaging, as discussed in the OP about how the Derby Extra got thinner and apparently got sharper and smoother, too. Regarding the Dorco blades, I've only measured two Dorco ST300 blades so far with my micrometer (for thickness) and caliper (for width, length, etc.), but I have more Dorco ST300 blades to be measured in the future. I will hopefully also measure Dorco ST301 blade samples. If average measurements line up, and especially if survey results match, too, then we'd be able to say that they are the same blade or are effectively the same blade. Statistically significant differences would basically prove that the blades are different, even without microscopic analysis.

P.S. Head's up. Don't be surprised if your reply gets edited or deleted by a moderator. I've had this happen to me more than once for unintentionally violating the forum rule on links---click on "TERMS AND RULES" below---and it seems like you violated the rule with your link to a shaving site that is not a B&B vendor.

I think there are 2 cases. Either Bluebird was always the same blade as Derby and as such it MUST have followed Derby's evolution OR it was always a blade with different edge. Unfortunately, i have read the most contraddicting opinions about this and haven't found someone who have done microscrope analysis. Logic says, that it is more plausible that it is the same blade. But who can be 100% certain? Example:

Bluebird Hi-Stainless-Platinum DE Blades

I have found other threads in other forums and the prevalent opinion was that they were sharper than Derbys. However, there usually was at least one wetshaver, who was saying they were the same as Derbys. So, me coming with some years of delay, how can i be sure what was the starting point...

About the Dorco... A blade can be otherwise identical, but have different edge. And to me, microscope image of the edge is definitive proof. I posted this here:
Does anyone here like Dorco ST-300

About the "terms and rules". I admit, that after having partecipated in forums with far more serious content than shaving, i skipped reading the terms of this one and after reading this i was a bit "huh?" , in the sense that it seems complicated enough to reach the limit of my english comprehension and maybe calls the need of a lawyer to dumb it down to me, but:
1) I can't edit my post anyway.
2) I don't care if i get banned. I registered here instead of a local forum, just because i can't spend time for 2 shaving forums and an english one where i can practice english is better (2 birds with 1 stone). If i get banned, i will go to a local forum. After all, it's shaving, not rocket science.
3) Under term "All Members 4", i don't think that i "made offer to buy, sell or exchange" (since i don't own that site nor am i affiliated. As a matter of fact, i haven't bought from them either). Under point 6, i "didn't direct anyone to live ebay or auction sites". Unless, it's point 6a, which is a bit cryptic to me, about what "links to sites that duplicate B&B content". If that means to other shaving forums, i have already violated that in the Dorco thread. Ok, i 've seen this before with some forums. Sorry mods! If it means that you can't link to anything related to "shaving", i am sorry to say that i do find it a bit hilarious and i can see my banning coming at full speed, because it's as if in an aviation forum, members can't link to Boeing, Lockheed Martin or Sukhoi or in a PC forum they can't link a Newegg product or to MSI, ASUS, Gigabyte or EVGA website. I 've seen a lot of strange things in a forums over the years, but if so, this one takes the cake. I guess even if i link a youtube video with a guy...shaving, this could potentially go against this term? Because it includes "podcasts and videos". I also see there is a term of "Hobbyist" (with capital H, so i assume there is also the more "commoner hobbyist" with non capital h as a term), but i don't see its definition there. That's another weird for me. Or maybe i underestimated american talent of commercializing everything... Where is this list of "BB vendors"? Are they those listed in the "vendor stores" department, below "Above the tie"? (29 vendors?) So if i link my razor to Amazon or my brush to Omega's site, i am violating the terms? And i must instead learn how to find the products i buy in Europe from the 29 american stores? What if i can find here a product that isn't sold in any of the "29 BB approved sites" (assuming i bother to learn their inventory by heart, which i clearly won't) and i want to show it to forum members? I can't???
Either like i said my reading comprehension has reached its limit, because my imagination has also reached its limit or it's simpler than it seems.

At any rate, thanks for the heads up, that's one cryptic "rules and terms". If i get banned, at least this is going to be so funny. My 1st ban ever in my long forum history will come from...a shaving forum with the weirdest terms! It's ok for me! At the end, i am neither "Hobbyist" nor "hobbyist". I just wanted to have good shaves. I have no doubt that there is also somewhere hidden another term against commenting the terms.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I think there are 2 cases. Either Bluebird was always the same blade as Derby and as such it MUST have followed Derby's evolution OR it was always a blade with different edge. Unfortunately, i have read the most contraddicting opinions about this and haven't found someone who have done microscrope analysis. Logic says, that it is more plausible that it is the same blade. But who can be 100% certain? Example:

Bluebird Hi-Stainless-Platinum DE Blades

I have found other threads in other forums and the prevalent opinion was that they were sharper than Derbys. However, there usually was at least one wetshaver, who was saying they were the same as Derbys. So, me coming with some years of delay, how can i be sure what was the starting point...

About the Dorco... A blade can be otherwise identical, but have different edge. And to me, microscope image of the edge is definitive proof. I posted this here:
Does anyone here like Dorco ST-300

About the "terms and rules". I admit, that after having partecipated in forums with far more serious content than shaving, i skipped reading the terms of this one and after reading this i was a bit "huh?" , in the sense that it seems complicated enough to reach the limit of my english comprehension and maybe calls the need of a lawyer to dumb it down to me, but:
1) I can't edit my post anyway.
2) I don't care if i get banned. I registered here instead of a local forum, just because i can't spend time for 2 shaving forums and an english one where i can practice english is better (2 birds with 1 stone). If i get banned, i will go to a local forum. After all, it's shaving, not rocket science.
3) Under term "All Members 4", i don't think that i "made offer to buy, sell or exchange" (since i don't own that site nor am i affiliated. As a matter of fact, i haven't bought from them either). Under point 6, i "didn't direct anyone to live ebay or auction sites". Unless, it's point 6a, which is a bit cryptic to me, about what "links to sites that duplicate B&B content". If that means to other shaving forums, i have already violated that in the Dorco thread. Ok, i 've seen this before with some forums. Sorry mods! If it means that you can't link to anything related to "shaving", i am sorry to say that i do find it a bit hilarious and i can see my banning coming at full speed, because it's as if in an aviation forum, members can't link to Boeing, Lockheed Martin or Sukhoi or in a PC forum they can't link a Newegg product or to MSI, ASUS, Gigabyte or EVGA website. I 've seen a lot of strange things in a forums over the years, but if so, this one takes the cake. I guess even if i link a youtube video with a guy...shaving, this could potentially go against this term? Because it includes "podcasts and videos". I also see there is a term of "Hobbyist" (with capital H, so i assume there is also the more "commoner hobbyist" with non capital h as a term), but i don't see its definition there. That's another weird for me. Or maybe i underestimated american talent of commercializing everything... Where is this list of "BB vendors"? Are they those listed in the "vendor stores" department, below "Above the tie"? (29 vendors?) So if i link my razor to Amazon or my brush to Omega's site, i am violating the terms? And i must instead learn how to find the products i buy in Europe from the 29 american stores? What if i can find here a product that isn't sold in any of the "29 BB approved sites" (assuming i bother to learn their inventory by heart, which i clearly won't) and i want to show it to forum members? I can't???
Either like i said my reading comprehension has reached its limit, because my imagination has also reached its limit or it's simpler than it seems.

At any rate, thanks for the heads up, that's one cryptic "rules and terms". If i get banned, at least this is going to be so funny. My 1st ban ever in my long forum history will come from...a shaving forum with the weirdest terms! It's ok for me! At the end, i am neither "Hobbyist" nor "hobbyist". I just wanted to have good shaves. I have no doubt that there is also somewhere hidden another term against commenting the terms.

Microscopic analysis is neat, but it's hard to do. The good thing is that blade dimensions (thickness, width, etc.) and survey results (sharpness, smoothness, etc.) cover geometric and performance issues.

I didn't mean to cause you any headaches over posting links here. I'm sensitive to the issue given my experiences here, that's all. I wouldn't stress over it. I'm glad that you didn't have a problem with your previous post, and I hope that you stick around. B&B is a great place with a great community of members.

P.S. Yes, the list of B&B vendors is under "B&B Vendor Stores" at the main forum page. I'm not sure about what's allowed for posting links to Amazon.

 

[Boring Euroshaver]

Microscopic analysis is neat, but it's hard to do. The good thing is that blade dimensions (thickness, width, etc.) and survey results (sharpness, smoothness, etc.) cover geometric and performance issues.

I didn't mean to cause you any headaches over posting links here. I'm sensitive to the issue given my experiences here, that's all. I wouldn't stress over it. I'm glad that you didn't have a problem with your previous post, and I hope that you stick around. B&B is a great place with a great community of members.

P.S. Yes, the list of B&B vendors is under "B&B Vendor Stores" at the main forum page. I'm not sure about what's allowed for posting links to Amazon.

Huh, so the limits of my imagination, were the correct interpretation after all! Well, good to know! It's a first for me...But, thanks, because i wouldn't have noticed otherwise and it's good to know that "you aren't in Kansas" anymore... Who would have thought! Since they didn't ban me, i will stick around and simply won't link anything again, because i certainly won't bother go searching for a link in those shops every time i want to show something. I am not that hardcore.

Back to the blade, certainly. If you can measure dimensions and they are different, that's good and quick. But theoretically, there can be blades with just a honing difference from the same factory. And one thing that i am sure about, is that people aren't reliable testimonies. Too many variables, even on the same individual. I 've read comments of people saying "Bluebird is Astra-sharp" and another say "it's the same old Derby". How can you compare Derby with Astra? They are not even close is sharpness...

Myself, the only thing i can 100% certainly say, is that when i first shaved with Bluebird, the edge felt "Derbyish". That's how i started digging to find what's going on. Because, most blades, feel like a metallic edge against my skin. Either purely metallic or close. Derby and Bluebird, feel like a stone-crystal or i guess ceramic-crystal feeling. It's a strange edge. It's very unique. But, while i had many problems with Derby (old version), i didn't with the Bluebird.

So, either of the 2 theories work for me. I mean, either Bluebird was initially sharper like many people said or it's the new Derby and it's sufficiently sharp to work for me. It's not sharp like Astra or Croma Diamant or probably Dorco Prime, but it's sharper than say Shark SS for me. And i can shave without problem with Shark. So i can shave with Bluebird too.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Back to the blade, certainly. If you can measure dimensions and they are different, that's good and quick. But theoretically, there can be blades with just a honing difference from the same factory. And one thing that i am sure about, is that people aren't reliable testimonies. Too many variables, even on the same individual. I 've read comments of people saying "Bluebird is Astra-sharp" and another say "it's the same old Derby". How can you compare Derby with Astra? They are not even close is sharpness...

Survey results on sharpness, smoothness, etc., vary from person to person, of course, but the more results that are gathered, the closer the sample average is to the "true" average among all users of the blade. We already have statistically confident results in the Comprehensive DE Razor Blade Data Table. If two blades have the same average dimensions and average performance ratings, then they are effectively the same blade, even if they actually have different hones. (Though, I'd suspect that the blades would have very similar cutting edges in that case.) About the same number of people would say that blade A is sharper than blade B compared to saying that blade B is sharper than blade A, but on average, blade A would seem to have the same sharpness as blade B.

 

[Boring Euroshaver]

Survey results on sharpness, smoothness, etc., vary from person to person, of course, but the more results that are gathered, the closer the sample average is to the "true" average among all users of the blade. We already have statistically confident results in the Comprehensive DE Razor Blade Data Table. If two blades have the same average dimensions and average performance ratings, then they are effectively the same blade, even if they actually have different hones. (Though, I'd suspect that the blades would have very similar cutting edges in that case.) About the same number of people would say that blade A is sharper than blade B compared to saying that blade B is sharper than blade A, but on average, blade A would seem to have the same sharpness as blade B.

I see. Interesting, i didn't know about that table. Personally i have trouble giving absolute ratings, i mostly compare blades between then and i am also not certain about whether what i define as smoothness is the same as others, since i 've googled and found that different people think of smoothness as something else. But, sharpness at least is a commonly understood property and i 'd say, that if Derby old is 4.9 and Bluebird is Derby new at 6.8, then it makes sense to have Astra at 8.1.

Good table!

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I see. Interesting, i didn't know about that table. Personally i have trouble giving absolute ratings, i mostly compare blades between then and i am also not certain about whether what i define as smoothness is the same as others, since i 've googled and found that different people think of smoothness as something else. But, sharpness at least is a commonly understood property and i 'd say, that if Derby old is 4.9 and Bluebird is Derby new at 6.8, then it makes sense to have Astra at 8.1.

Good table!

I'm glad that you like it! All terms are defined below the table in the "Table Nomenclature" section. (I should reconsider renaming that section.) For example, here is what is said about smoothness:

"Smoothness (0–10), averaged from surveyed user ratings on a scale from 0 (roughest blades) to 10 (smoothest blades). Smoothness is a measure of how well a blade provides comfortable and bloodless shaves compared to other blades. More smoothness means less irritation and redness and less nicks, weepers, and cuts."​

Definitions like this are used in the OPs of the user ratings surveys. I've done the best that I can do to ensure that those who participate are doing so with the same common understanding of sharpness and smoothness, as well as longevity and consistency. Earlier attempts in the development of the survey process to force a "comprehension statement" of sorts all failed. As you pointed out, sharpness is universally understood, but there are those that think of smoothness a little differently. The definition that I wrote seemed "normal" to me, and I haven't had any pushback on it.

I hear what you're saying about the difficulty of assigning ratings. We're not used to it. Also, we might not feel qualified to provide ratings. Only experienced users of DE blades and razors should provide ratings. (I don't count myself as one them yet.) Thankfully, there are experienced users who are giving it a shot, and it seems to be working well. We get a different list of guys rating blades each time. Some guys have rated one blade so far, while other guys have rated more than one blade. Rating blades should be easier the more that one does it.

It's cool to me that the Derby Extra and Astra SP ratings seem to fit your thinking about them and the Bluebird. Your exploration of the Derby Extra and the Bluebird reminded me of what I already see between the Astra SP and the Gillette 7 O'Clock Super Stainless. The dimensions and user ratings are similar between these blades, which are made in the same factory (PPI in Russia). It will be very interesting to see how the other PPI blades compare to these two PPI blades.

 

[Boring Euroshaver]

I'm glad that you like it! All terms are defined below the table in the "Table Nomenclature" section. (I should reconsider renaming that section.) For example, here is what is said about smoothness:

"Smoothness (0–10), averaged from surveyed user ratings on a scale from 0 (roughest blades) to 10 (smoothest blades). Smoothness is a measure of how well a blade provides comfortable and bloodless shaves compared to other blades. More smoothness means less irritation and redness and less nicks, weepers, and cuts."​

Definitions like this are used in the OPs of the user ratings surveys. I've done the best that I can do to ensure that those who participate are doing so with the same common understanding of sharpness and smoothness, as well as longevity and consistency. Earlier attempts in the development of the survey process to force a "comprehension statement" of sorts all failed. As you pointed out, sharpness is universally understood, but there are those that think of smoothness a little differently. The definition that I wrote seemed "normal" to me, and I haven't had any pushback on it.

I hear what you're saying about the difficulty of assigning ratings. We're not used to it. Also, we might not feel qualified to provide ratings. Only experienced users of DE blades and razors should provide ratings. (I don't count myself as one them yet.) Thankfully, there are experienced users who are giving it a shot, and it seems to be working well. We get a different list of guys rating blades each time. Some guys have rated one blade so far, while other guys have rated more than one blade. Rating blades should be easier the more that one does it.

It's cool to me that the Derby Extra and Astra SP ratings seem to fit your thinking about them and the Bluebird. Your exploration of the Derby Extra and the Bluebird reminded me of what I already see between the Astra SP and the Gillette 7 O'Clock Super Stainless. The dimensions and user ratings are similar between these blades, which are made in the same factory (PPI in Russia). It will be very interesting to see how the other PPI blades compare to these two PPI blades.

You are right, i saw the definitions later. I like it when people are tidy and clear and define things. My only perplexity with that definition is the "comfortable" part. For example, what if a blade can't nick me, but it's a bit tuggy, though without irritation? By "comfortable" tugginess would works against that. But nicks and irritation would work in favor of that. But tugginess, is related to cutting power and thus to sharpness. Which is why when i call a blade smooth, i intend only the part "no nicks, no irritation". Because for example, the old Derby can't nick me. I must do something really crazy with really high pressure ATG to nick me. But it has a clear tugging propensity. On the other hand, the Croma Diamant, being much sharper, if i am not careful, can nick me. But it's not tuggy. Of the 2, i much prefer the Croma. So how am i to rate the smoothness of the 2...

This is why i made my own instinctive definition when i started shaving and i included only irritation and propensity to cuts/weepers. So usually, a sharper blade is less smooth for me. But, overall, a sharper blade can be more comfortable than a duller blade. Depends. By comfortable, i mean, how much effort and attention i must pay to it. So, should i rate a blade based on "comfort" plus "nick/weeper, irritation propensity", i would be confused. On the other side, sharpness is clear and it also affects how comfortable the shave is. I have arrived to the point of googling to understand what others feel as smoothness and the results were all over the place and i understand why. I mean, it's good that you offer a definition, but i don't know if even that definition would make someone have clear idea.


Yeah, about ratings, you are right about the experienced one. I wouldn't be able to give an absolute rating. I have more of feeling of relative sharpness between blades or, i have some blades that "remind me of another". But this isn't related just to sharpness, but also how i feel the blade on my skin, how it glides etc. So it would mislead me if i had to give absolute ratings. For instance, call me crazy, but i find something familiar between Wilkinson Sword, Supermax SS and Personna Red. They are not equal in sharpness, but on my skin, the way they cut and the way they glide on my face, seem very similar to me.

The table's ratings for Derby and Astra sure look convincing to me. In the sense that the cutting power of Astra is way superior to the old Derby for me and still higher compared to Bluebird, but not so much. So i think that table is on a good path. But for differences between PPI blades, that will be sure interesting to read! Probably something like hair splitting!

Then of course, there is the part of the razor. I have 3 razor types: Weishi 9306, EJ DE89, Wilkison classic. But i mostly use the Weishi, which is very mild. This also can murk my results, because it's a razor that protects you from nicks. I also think though, that since it has little blade exposure and restricted cutting angle, that it amplifies a lot the pros and cons a blade. Which is a strange combination. For instance, when i had tried the Derby on the DE89, it was more comfortable overall. But the Weishi, seems to bring out the best and the worst of each blade.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

You are right, i saw the definitions later. I like it when people are tidy and clear and define things. My only perplexity with that definition is the "comfortable" part. For example, what if a blade can't nick me, but it's a bit tuggy, though without irritation? By "comfortable" tugginess would works against that. But nicks and irritation would work in favor of that. But tugginess, is related to cutting power and thus to sharpness. Which is why when i call a blade smooth, i intend only the part "no nicks, no irritation". Because for example, the old Derby can't nick me. I must do something really crazy with really high pressure ATG to nick me. But it has a clear tugging propensity. On the other hand, the Croma Diamant, being much sharper, if i am not careful, can nick me. But it's not tuggy. Of the 2, i much prefer the Croma. So how am i to rate the smoothness of the 2...

The broad "comfortable and bloodless" part in the definition of "smoothness" is made clear in the next sentence: "More smoothness means less irritation and redness and less nicks, weepers, and cuts." Yes, a smooth blade can be "tuggy" because it is not sharp. Tugging is covered in the definition for "sharpness": "More sharpness means (a) less drag and tugging due to easier cutting of hair, (b) closer shaves, and (c) less needed strokes and/or passes per shave." Even if someone might want to say that he finds quicker shaves with sharper blades more "comfortable", the definitions of sharpness and smoothness force the user to delineate between efficiency and closeness vs. irritation and cuts.

This is why i made my own instinctive definition when i started shaving and i included only irritation and propensity to cuts/weepers. So usually, a sharper blade is less smooth for me. But, overall, a sharper blade can be more comfortable than a duller blade. Depends. By comfortable, i mean, how much effort and attention i must pay to it. So, should i rate a blade based on "comfort" plus "nick/weeper, irritation propensity", i would be confused. On the other side, sharpness is clear and it also affects how comfortable the shave is. I have arrived to the point of googling to understand what others feel as smoothness and the results were all over the place and i understand why. I mean, it's good that you offer a definition, but i don't know if even that definition would make someone have clear idea.

Your definition seems to follow mine, which is what I consider the "normal" understanding for smoothness, even though understandings by some of smoothness interplay with sharpness. During the survey process, no one has provided feedback with concern for my definitions of sharpness and smoothness. As you were talking about, a sharper blade may or may not be a smoother blade. Overall, our user ratings show that sharper blades are generally considered smoother, too, which is contrary to what I was reading before I started DE shaving last year, but is fairly consistent with what I've personally experienced since I started DE shaving.

Yeah, about ratings, you are right about the experienced one. I wouldn't be able to give an absolute rating. I have more of feeling of relative sharpness between blades or, i have some blades that "remind me of another". But this isn't related just to sharpness, but also how i feel the blade on my skin, how it glides etc. So it would mislead me if i had to give absolute ratings.

The ratings for sharpness, smoothess, longevity, and consistency are all RELATIVE such that 0 is for "least" and 10 is for "most". Still, it can be difficult to compare blades to one another, get a feel for the limits from 0 to 10, and fairly evaluate a blade.

The table's ratings for Derby and Astra sure look convincing to me. In the sense that the cutting power of Astra is way superior to the old Derby for me and still higher compared to Bluebird, but not so much. So i think that table is on a good path. But for differences between PPI blades, that will be sure interesting to read! Probably something like hair splitting!

So far, the results between our two PPI blades are kind of "hair splitting". I think that our results for Derby and Astra are good, too, along with other blades.

Then of course, there is the part of the razor. I have 3 razor types: Weishi 9306, EJ DE89, Wilkison classic. But i mostly use the Weishi, which is very mild. This also can murk my results, because it's a razor that protects you from nicks. I also think though, that since it has little blade exposure and restricted cutting angle, that it amplifies a lot the pros and cons a blade. Which is a strange combination. For instance, when i had tried the Derby on the DE89, it was more comfortable overall. But the Weishi, seems to bring out the best and the worst of each blade.

This is exactly why we want ratings from users with experience with plenty of blades and razors, at least a few razors and many blades. I've only used three DE safety razors, one briefly and two long-term. You're right how opinions of blades can change much with the razor. It's interesting about how a razor can amplify the pros and cons of a blade. That would really help evaluating them!

 

[Boring Euroshaver]

The broad "comfortable and bloodless" part in the definition of "smoothness" is made clear in the next sentence: "More smoothness means less irritation and redness and less nicks, weepers, and cuts." Yes, a smooth blade can be "tuggy" because it is not sharp. Tugging is covered in the definition for "sharpness": "More sharpness means (a) less drag and tugging due to easier cutting of hair, (b) closer shaves, and (c) less needed strokes and/or passes per shave." Even if someone might want to say that he finds quicker shaves with sharper blades more "comfortable", the definitions of sharpness and smoothness force the user to delineate between efficiency and closeness vs. irritation and cuts.

Your definition seems to follow mine, which is what I consider the "normal" understanding for smoothness, even though understandings by some of smoothness interplay with sharpness. During the survey process, no one has provided feedback with concern for my definitions of sharpness and smoothness. As you were talking about, a sharper blade may or may not be a smoother blade. Overall, our user ratings show that sharper blades are generally considered smoother, too, which is contrary to what I was reading before I started DE shaving last year, but is fairly consistent with what I've personally experienced since I started DE shaving.

My misunderstanding then, i fully agree now that i understood better. And yes, your definition is the same thing i had thought then.

The ratings for sharpness, smoothess, longevity, and consistency are all RELATIVE such that 0 is for "least" and 10 is for "most". Still, it can be difficult to compare blades to one another, get a feel for the limits from 0 to 10, and fairly evaluate a blade.

So far, the results between our two PPI blades are kind of "hair splitting". I think that our results for Derby and Astra are good, too, along with other blades.

This is exactly why we want ratings from users with experience with plenty of blades and razors, at least a few razors and many blades. I've only used three DE safety razors, one briefly and two long-term. You're right how opinions of blades can change much with the razor. It's interesting about how a razor can amplify the pros and cons of a blade. That would really help evaluating them!

Yeah, now that i understood better how things work, i think you did a terrific job! About the sharpness, the ratings, at least of the Derby family and Astra seem very plausible to me. About the smoothness, again i would agree on the Astra, because it's very sharp, but i 've never had a weeper with it. About the Derby smoothness i wouldn't know. It was the only blade that gave me serious irritation in my early days. Nowdays, with lather improvement and preshaves and "Derby dedicated technique" (that still doesn't give BBS), i don't get any and no nicks either. But, since i jumped through hoops to arrive to this, i really don't know what i would rate it. I guess your table gives it an honest vote all considering. If i had stuck to my old ways, i would probably give it even less.

Yeah, i think your table, will probably end up the most attendible internet ranking system of blades. I have found another ranking made by another guy in a spreadsheet, but his opinion of Astra SP was quite more different than mine, so this ruined it for me.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

My misunderstanding then, i fully agree now that i understood better. And yes, your definition is the same thing i had thought then.

Cool. I thought that we were thinking alike.

Yeah, now that i understood better how things work, i think you did a terrific job! About the sharpness, the ratings, at least of the Derby family and Astra seem very plausible to me. About the smoothness, again i would agree on the Astra, because it's very sharp, but i 've never had a weeper with it. About the Derby smoothness i wouldn't know. It was the only blade that gave me serious irritation in my early days. Nowdays, with lather improvement and preshaves and "Derby dedicated technique" (that still doesn't give BBS), i don't get any and no nicks either. But, since i jumped through hoops to arrive to this, i really don't know what i would rate it. I guess your table gives it an honest vote all considering. If i had stuck to my old ways, i would probably give it even less.

Yeah, i think your table, will probably end up the most attendible internet ranking system of blades. I have found another ranking made by another guy in a spreadsheet, but his opinion of Astra SP was quite more different than mine, so this ruined it for me.

Thanks! No one's done what we're doing here, which is getting experienced ratings from many users for statistically significant results. (The statistically confident dimensions are also really good, too.) In time, the comprehensive table can become THE blade resource. Your experience with that one guy's spreadsheet shows why no one person's opinion can be considered infallible. Some guys will think one thing, and other guys can have the opposite opinion, but no matter what, we can get good overall ratings. Take our ratings table at the Astra SP's ShaveWiki page. There are 26 users in that table. You aren't the only one who thinks that the Astra SP is very smooth. There are four 10's, two 9.5's, and six 9's for smoothness, but with the lower ratings---a rating of 8 was the most common, or the "mode"---the average came out to be 8.4 for smoothness. An average smoothness in the table might not seem true for you or me, but maybe it could turn out to be true upon further experimentation of the blade and other blades with more razors. The table might inspire some blade reevaluation.

 

[con]

This thread came to my attention, by kind indication of forum member @lancre . So i think i can contribute a possible further point.

I bought all these blades, between March and April 2017. Bluebirds, had felt sharper to me than Derbys, despite the fact that they are made in the same factory.

I think now that it is very plausible to say, that Bluebirds are also the "new" Derby.
If you look at the packagings here:
- The green 100 pack of Derbys, has the "old" tucks and has no "new" writing on the box. The 2nd, sealed tuck that i 've put on the green box, is a free tuck that came with everyone of the 3 EJ DE89 razors i bought in April 2017. So, old tuck too.
- The blue Derby 200pack, corresponds to the "new" packaging from the OP's post and has written "New blade technology" in red fonts on it.
- The Bluebird blade, has also written "New" in red fonts on it. For the record, in one of the narrow sides, the box has written "Made in Turkey" too, and on the other side, an email, with domain "awalnet.net.sa". Which should be a Saudi Arabia domain. In Amzusebat's website, the Derby brand exists, but not the Bluebird, which indicates that Bluebird is manufactured by Amzusebat on commission for the Saudi company that has the copyright for the Bluebird brand.

I took this photo side by side, with each tuck exposed, to show better the difference and compare with the OP:

View attachment 797298

As if this wasn't enough, there is further evidence that the Bluebird in the photo is also a "new" Bluebird, since i found this older photo of a Bluebird tuck and it's different:

View attachment 797299

Coincidence? I don't think so... It seems that Bluebird and Derby are the same blade, but for copyright reasons, Amzusebat only acknowledges the Derby as her own brand, while the Bluebird is made for a Saudi Arabian company for the arabian gulf market. And when Derby revised its blade and packaging, the same happened to Bluebird.

Also, given my case, beware, since old Derby blades, seem that still exist and are sold more than 1 year after the "new Derby".

For the record, although i dislike the "old Derby" (which are the first Derbys i encountered), i like the "Bluebird". Not my favourite, but i went to 5 shaves with it, without complaining. A pleasant experience. Mind you, they are not the sharpest blades still, but they are sharp enough to give a comfortable and close shave.

Interesting observations. Years ago I tried the Bluebird in the original packaging...there's a post from me in Jan 2011 declaring it as mild-meh. Anyway, through a country move, life, etc. etc. I actually lost that blade stash...

Six years on, though I still favor a sharper edge - I do now appreciate that a mild blade also has it's place in the world, and in my sock draw, and occasionally in one of my razors. So long story short, I have the new type Derbys and Bluebirds in my sock draw now, and completely didn't realize that either had changed (I just thought that packaging 10 together was more efficient in many ways).

Anyway I'd been shaving all week with a Bluebird in one of my slants, and because six years ago the Bluebirds were talked about as being Derbys branded for sale in another region, I was curious to try the Derby back-to-back. Same razor, same prep, same everything....the only exogenous variable being the blade. In a blind test, I'd probably never be able to tell the difference between the two blades. I did get a little sting on the neck (which I didn't get with the Bluebirds), but I suspect that was my fault...I 'suspect'. So, without microscopically examining the edges - I'd say that these two blades (for me) are pretty much on par...though I like the Bluebird branding more

So, I think if you're lamenting the discontinuation of the Bluebird brand - then good news - just buy the 10-pack Derbys (which you'll be able to find for cheaper).

I'm not going to make any comparisons with the old Bluebirds and Derbys, because that's just too far to go back...perhaps if someone has stashes of the original runs, that comparison might be a bit of entertainment? Like I said, I wasn't actually aware of any changes - but mostly because I haven't used either of these brands in over half a decade.

But I will say, after years of walking past the Derbys (and let's be honest, a lot of us started with them) I've developed a renewed appreciation for them. I think they're a solid blade - so long as my prep is on point, and I load them into a razor that isn't too mild, then shaving with a Bluebird/Derby is a pleasure.