Convex club.

[Somerled]

Hahaha now that is funny Brexit dont even go there, I live in the UK and our government cannot sort themselves out as it would hurt there pockets. They dont give 2 hoots for us we voted leave 3 years ago and they are still bickering, so it shows the rest of the world what a joke government we have.

Spoiler

They couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery

Right back on subject but fair play to Jarrod, I can see me getting one to try it. I just wanted to know before I spent hard earned money if it was not going to work, as living in the UK shipping and import tax is going to hurt big time...

Ian, I'm from the UK too and didn't want to import one of Jarrods stones and line our inept governments pockets with import charges and VAT.
But, reading this and other post's, I too was itching to try one out.

So, having an Ark sitting around that I bought a while back from Executive Shaving I decided to try and convex it myself.
As, has been already said, Ark's are incredibly hard and dense stones to work with, it took a lot of effort (and sandpaper) to do. I'm not sure I would ever do another, but it can be done.

It seems to have worked as far as I can tell, I just prefer to hone with my coticules.
But now I have an 8x3x1 hard black Ark, flat on one side and convex on the other, that I can use if I ever get bored with coticules.

 

[Steve56]

A friend sent me a post and noted that I had been mentioned on un-social media, which I don’t do, but that’s another story. @Gamma was also mentioned (You’re a bad man too Keith, lol)

There was a thread on another forum about these convex stones, which has since been pulled so it doesn’t exist anymore. I did the calculation of just how much a 0.5mm wide bevel was convexed. At Jarrod’s specification it was about the depth of a 5k grit scratch. so the middle of the bevel was 1/5000 inch lower assuming that you did perfectly straight strokes. I just don’t believe that makes a difference.

Does a domed hone change the honing characteristics? Sure, it certainly means that at any given point there’s a smaller contact patch with a flat, straight bevel, and by inference it can hone into an overground blade far more easily which is why, I believe, many modern manufacturers embrace it. It cuts the reject rate. A domed hone, by virtue of the small contact patch, is functionally a narrow hone, you don’t need an 8x3 domed hone for frowns and overgrinds, just use the side of your Chosera or the corner of any hone.

You can make your own domed hone easily, just lap it with loose SiC. Iwasaki mentions it in his book chapter for barbers that the hone will be domed using loose grit to lap, and you can confirm this by first lapping with loose SiC then looking at the wear pattern from an Atoma plate, the Atoma will be wearing the center first. Using figure 8s and random strokes, the hone will be domed in 2 dimensions which is a difference. I actually prefer a flat hone, but if a domed hone floats your boat, go for it, it doesn’t make (IMO) any real difference in the final edge.

 

[Ice-Man]

Ian, I'm from the UK too and didn't want to import one of Jarrods stones and line our inept governments pockets with import charges and VAT.
But, reading this and other post's, I too was itching to try one out.

So, having an Ark sitting around that I bought a while back from Executive Shaving I decided to try and convex it myself.
As, has been already said, Ark's are incredibly hard and dense stones to work with, it took a lot of effort (and sandpaper) to do. I'm not sure I would ever do another, but it can be done.

It seems to have worked as far as I can tell, I just prefer to hone with my coticules.
But now I have an 8x3x1 hard black Ark, flat on one side and convex on the other, that I can use if I ever get bored with coticules.

Doug Now that's an idea I never gave it a thought this one I wont be looking forward to doing, but it will give me something to do as yourself shipping and Tax is a killer. plus Royal mail charging me 8 quid just to handle the cash its a big big rip off so yes I will go with that option

Thank you Doug for that advice...... I might be when I finish it lol

 

[Steve56]

Purchased a combination convex black/soft Ark stone from SS in late August. Used the black arkansas on a few straights to touch up the blades, no issues, pleased with the black. Friday was going to set a bevel on the soft side (first time side used) and noticed a crack when applied water and ballistol mix.

It runs across the whole way through and on both edges. Was only visible to me when wet, fingernail scrape gives a faint bump.

Emailed the vendor he says "only affects my stones pride"?

Not sure I want to set a bevel on a stone with a crack, seeking advise from knowledgeable forum members.

Thank you.

You can manage cracks if you want to. I have jnats with cracks that I’d never, ever, sell because of the quality of the stone. The problem with most cracks is that the edges/corners can shed particles which can dangerous to a razor’s edge but maybe don’t make much difference to most knife edges. After I lap them, I dress the cracks with a fibergalss brush to remove any unstable material. Rinse well, raise a slurry to further condition and fill the crack, and you’re good to go until the next lapping.

i’m not so sure that I’d want to incur that burden on a currently stocked stone that can be replaced if I’m paying full price. If that’s true you might as well settle for a cracked Naniwa or Shapton at full price.

 

[kohalajohn]

I just finished changing over a jnat edge to a convex ark edge. Very interesting results.

The jnat edge was on a new Wacker, shown below. A very good razor.

I had the seller send it directly to doc226 for honing on a jnat. This was my first jnat edge and I wanted to see what a good jnat edge felt like. The edge was crisp, lively and very noisy. It gave a good shave, and it was interesting how it felt different from my ark or balsa edges. I quite liked it.

And now, I have been trying out my first jnat. And using this Wacker. Tomo at first, then raising slurry with an atoma 1200.

The atoma 1200 raised a lot of slurry. I used light pressure, then slowly added water, and finally finished with pure water.

It shaved ok but was not very sharp. Did three passes and didn't really get a close shave out of it. I think I actually took this blade backwards, with my efforts. Don't know how or why.

It may be due to my lack of skill on jnats. In fact that's likely exactly what it was.

So I decided to take this blade to my convex black ark. Diluted ballistol, normal laps, going slow with x strokes, about fifty laps.

And now it's sharp. Three passes and a very smooth and very close shave.

So there ya go. Make of that what you want.

 

[Basil]

That’s a beautiful razor!

Ive actually stopped using my convex ark. The edge was sharp from it but found it to be a little harsh. Been using just my jnat now and have been loving the results, sharp and smooth for me.
That being said the ark is still a great stone, just not exactly what I like at the moment.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I just finished changing over a jnat edge to a convex ark edge...Make of that what you want.

Interesting post.

In my collection there are four Japanese razors with jnat + diamond + CBN edges. I like them just fine but perhaps not as well and certainly not better than my best DCA edges. Somewhere down the road I'll probably want to rehone these edges which makes your post more interesting to me and helpful.

You mention how many laps you did on the convex ark. Did you use both sides of the DCA? About how many of the soft side and how many on the hard side?

Considering the great results you got you did very few laps. Great job of it.

Today I worked on one of my other (not mentioned above) Japanese razors. I did hundreds of laps probably split about equally between the two sides of the DCA. My results were not all that great, but I wasn't starting with a particularly good edge.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Well, Jim, I think the reason I got such a good result so quickly was that I was starting with a good razor that was already in good shape.

I just did fifty laps, and only on the hard black side. I went slowly, with a fingertip from my off hand on the spine, for control, and to ensure the whole edge gets attention. My fingertip slides down the spine as I go, as I try to match the pressure to where it should be in contact with the stone at that point.

A cba always works for me. I don't have to figure out how thick to make the slurry etc. But I am going to try that jnat again. I'm curious.

But it may be that a jnat is not supposed to create extremely sharp. From what I read, it's more about comfort.

I like sharp though. Now that I am using tools like the cba and the diamond balsa, I like it sharp and I am no longer using my nani12 or my coti at all.

Jim, you mentioned using jnat plus diamond plus cbn edges. Does that mean you use the jnat for medium work and then you finish on pasted balsa?

If I was buying a razor that needed a full set of honing, I think I'd first check for real damage with the loup, and if needed, fix the damage with an atoma 400. If no damage, I'd just set the bevel on an atoma 1200, then go to soft ark and then black ark and likely stop there. If I wanted more sharp I'd move on with diamond balsa.

 

[kohalajohn]

maybe a jnat followed by a cba is a good pairing.

unlike a soft ark, you can raise a ton of thick slurry on a jnat and do some aggressive cutting. And over several minutes the slurry becomes less aggressive and advances your razor to the point where it's time for the slow black ark to finish.

what I liked about using the atoma 1200 to raise the slurry is that it also keeps the stone lapped flat.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Well, Jim, I think the reason I got such a good result so quickly was that I was starting with a good razor that was already in good shape.

I just did fifty laps, and only on the hard black side. I went slowly, with a fingertip from my off hand on the spine, for control, and to ensure the whole edge gets attention. My fingertip slides down the spine as I go, as I try to match the pressure to where it should be in contact with the stone at that point.

A cba always works for me. I don't have to figure out how thick to make the slurry etc. But I am going to try that jnat again. I'm curious.

But it may be that a jnat is not supposed to create extremely sharp. From what I read, it's more about comfort.

I like sharp though. Now that I am using tools like the cba and the diamond balsa, I like it sharp and I am no longer using my nani12 or my coti at all.

Jim, you mentioned using jnat plus diamond plus cbn edges. Does that mean you use the jnat for medium work and then you finish on pasted balsa?

If I was buying a razor that needed a full set of honing, I think I'd first check for real damage with the loup, and if needed, fix the damage with an atoma 400. If no damage, I'd just set the bevel on an atoma 1200, then go to soft ark and then black ark and likely stop there. If I wanted more sharp I'd move on with diamond balsa.

Pardon me for not being more clear.

The four Japanese razors in my collection which were honed on jnats + diamond + cbn were not honed by me. I bought them from a vendor who'd honed them (and did a good job of it).

I've used no other edge that I know to have been a jnat edge.

Although I was very pleased with my few coti edges they were not as sharp as any of my better Ark edges (flat Arks or convex Arks). I think the Zulu Grey edge or two I did compared pretty well with the Ark edges, but that's really going by memory more than it should be.

I've used pasted strops to increase sharpness and had it work well sometimes. I've not used the pastes since I started with the DCA, not that I'm ruling out the possibility.

Yes, I agree that the bevel is everything. I could take the Tanifuji to the USB microscope and check the edge. Might be a very good idea.

In addition to the four Japanese razors honed on jnats by that one vendor I have three other Japanese blades all of which I've honed on the DCA. Although I liked the results initially I've found them less sharp and less satisfying than some of my better efforts on the DCA.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Ah. I understand. Thanks.

I think I recall you posting about the jnat plus plus razor. It was very impressive, yes?

But I wonder if the mid range stones really matter. My thought is that the edge is just the last thing you used on it. Does the edge "remember" its previous succession of stones? Maybe it does.

I do have a question for you. What do you think is a good mid range stone before going on to a convex black ark? Can you jump straight from 5k or is it wiser to be higher up the chain before finishing on our beloved arks?

And regarding pictures, today I found way in the back of my humidor, one last remaining Hoyo de Monterrey Churchill. Rather a celebrated cigar. I was sure I had run out.

I have some things to celebrate, so I'm going to enjoy it tonight, along with a nice Islay. I sliced the end off, using that razor that I was talking about. I suspect the cigar deserved some special treatment.

Have a great evening. I believe I will.

John

 

[M14Shooter]

I like to use a J-Nat to basically finish the edge .Than I use my Translucent Arkie with about 100 Laps to tweek the edge a little to make it a hair keener and smoother.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Congratulations on the fine cigar and on whatever you were celebrating, John.

I think I recall you posting about the jnat plus plus razor. It was very impressive, yes?

But I wonder if the mid range stones really matter. My thought is that the edge is just the last thing you used on it. Does the edge "remember" its previous succession of stones? Maybe it does.

I do have a question for you. What do you think is a good mid range stone before going on to a convex black ark? Can you jump straight from 5k or is it wiser to be higher up the chain before finishing on our beloved arks?

Yes, the vendor's jnat ++ edges are very impressive, but, and this is worth celebrating, they're certainly not better than my best DCA edges (which are not finished on anything beyond the Ark).

Not that I'm achieving that sort of edge consistently, but having a few is a big deal. The ERN, Wade, and Wide Torrey don't feel harsh or anything of that sort. Even though they are easy to shave with, and feel very smooth and easy, they also shave me very completely and efficiently oftentimes delivering almost a one pass shave.

There are plenty of back and forth conversations about whether an edge remembers the mid range stone's work. I really don't know but I'd guess the edge might retain some qualities of that sort but not most.

I've read you can jump from the bevel setting stone to the finishing stone it just takes a lot more time (well, a lot more time maybe) on the finishing stone. Is that true if the finishing stone is a surgical Ark? I suspect it is, but who would want to "polish" forever when there are shortcuts?

Can you jump from a Chosera 1K or a SS 3K to the DCA? Definitely. I've done it. It's worked fine. Was it the best way? I have no idea.

Can you set the bevel (on a chipped razor with a terrible edge) on a 320 Shapton and then jump to a Chosera 1K and then to a Washita and then to the DCA? Yes, I've done that too.

I've also used just the Washita and then the soft side of the DCA and then the hard side.

I've used only the Chosera 1K and then the Zulu Grey for that matter and gotten great results.

What is a mid range stone when you consider finishing on the hard side of the DCA? Is the soft side of the DCA mid range? Jarrod uses the term bevel setter in describing it, as in this description of a DCA taken just now from his website, "One side is the soft Arkansas stone, an ideal bevel setting tool."

Exactly what he means by that I don't know. I doubt he sees it as a rehab stone but it's possible. Yesterday I pushed the soft side in a successful attempt to even out a couple of what looked to be dents in the edge (looking with a 10K or 20K loupe). When I say pushed I mean I was using a good bit of pressure and using back and forth laps (edge leading & edge following) on one side and then the other. I did 20-30-40-50-40-30-20-10 (times two because I did both sides, all with "half laps") and then a bunch of regular alternating strokes (one direction, edge first) going from one side of the edge to the other. All on the soft side.

It certainly worked going by what I could see with the loupe. The shave, not quite so much, but, again, the shave was certainly not bad.

I think Jarrod means the DCA is actually a one stone (one glued together combination stone) solution. I think I tend to agree with him but I'm not sure other stones don't have their place just in case you have them.

It's a very interesting question. I have a thimble half full of expertise and only half baked answers, but those are my observations and thoughts so far.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Namkcakram]

IME some stones allow you to still feel the stone prior, and a finishing ark is one of those stones. But once a razor moves from stones to a loaded strop I think you’ve made a jump in grit and moved away from stones to an elastic deforming surface, and the result is you no longer have an edge resembling whatever stone you “finished” on anymore. I would wager Jim’s “JNAT ++” vendor edges are probably closer to the balsa and diamond edges and further away from a normal JNAT finished edge like from Doc.

When you start dabbling in JNATs you really have to adjust your thinking to accept that the slurry “breaks down” or loses it’s cutting efficiency, and move away from a “dilucot” or pressure varying mode of thinking. Don’t make too much slurry, and then do your best to keep it on the stone with a normal x stroke and the blade slightly heel leading. Add water to keep the consistency fluid, but do your best to TRY and wear out the slurry as long as possible. THEN if you want to see how far your stone can push, you can finish with a couple light/no pressure water only laps but a lot of times that can turn the edge a little less forgiving and more towards being a scalpel. I rarely nick myself at all, but more often than that I’ll overdo a JNAT edge and end up with random weepers until the edge calms down around shave 3-5. Some of that is because I didn’t have proper nagura for a while so I was finishing everything on water only.

Also just my personal note is even after really nailing a JNAT edge, for most of my razors I prefer Coticule or Ark edges. No doubt I can push a JNAT edge a little bit sharper than my other naturals, but if I can shave comfortably with less risk of shaving off hair follicles using other stones it’s sort of a moot point. I haven’t dabbled in loaded strops for razors so I can’t offer a comparison to those edges, but I use loaded strops for some woodworking tools and I like edges from fruitwood strops loaded with JNAT slurry more than any other abrasive or substrate combination.

 

[kohalajohn]

Thanks gents.

Nam, when you say wear out the slurry on the jnat, how long should that take? Assume I'm using a hard jnat. And are there "tells" that the stone will give me, to know I'm successfully moving into the finishing stages?

Yes, Jim, I also feel the combo ark is a one stone solution.

But for honing only, not repair or bevel work. Yes, it appears that you can use the soft ark for bevel setting, or as you showed, even for repair, but it appears that it takes something like seven hundred laps to do it.

I made a combo atoma, which is handy. I have an atoma 1200. I recently bought the atoma 400, but I ordered it without the steel backing plate. It comes with a glued back, so I just stuck it onto the steel backside of the 1200. Now I have a combo atoma, for repair with the 400 and bevel setting with the 1200 side.

So I use the atoma 1200 for bevel setting, not the soft ark.


But I think the soft ark is all I need for mid range. I can jump from that atoma 1200 for bevel, to the soft ark for mid range and finish on the black ark. Just three steps.

So with these two combo "stones" I can do it all.

I know that I have to do a lot of laps on the arks. But I don't mind, as it's still simpler and faster than going through a progression of several naniwas or a progression of several naguras on several jnats.

I'm currently struggling/learning on this new jnat. I used my atoma 1200 to raise slurry and raised too thick of a slurry. It dulled the edge, just as if I had honed a sharp razor on a coarse stone. I have to try again, with a much more dilute slurry. And many more laps, to soften the aggressive particles in the slurry. These jnats are stange, as they change in their degree of coarseness and fineness, depending on how you build and work their slurry.

Jim, can you tell me about your honing technique to finish on the black ark? What you do to get the sharpest edge you can? My ark edges are fine, but I don't yet have any edge that gives me a smooth shave in only one pass. That would be pretty cool.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, can you tell me about your honing technique to finish on the black ark? What you do to get the sharpest edge you can?

Mostly heel leading X Stokes. Sometimes beginning with the toe off the stone and finishing with the heel off to the same amount. Sometimes the strokes are close to flat (razor perpendicular to the long axis of the stone) and the strokes are close to that angle throughout. More often the strokes are at various angles (heel leading) up to maybe 45 degrees.

I vary the angles and such out of boredom maybe. It's not methodical except that I try to do the downward stroke the same way I did the upward stroke.

Very light. Trying for no pressure except weight of the razor, but I do use both hands and I do hone on the table (I find the stone too heavy to hone in hand). I use no stone holder. Ballistol and water mixed about 1:4 but that's just a guess on the ratio.

Really nothing special.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Yup. Jim, that's exactly what I do.

Although maybe I need to lighten up the pressure and go for more laps. I'm getting a good edge, and can tree top of course, but I think you're getting super sharp results. It motivates me to be patient and try to go further.

That seems to be the route to sharpness with all the methods and stones. Light pressure, and many many laps.

I think the popularity of the nani12 was that it was a fast and easy grinder. You could quickly "get 'er done". But while it shaved, it wasn't a spectacular edge.

I think we are now in a golden age, where tools are available to us where we can approach shavette levels of sharp, while keeping the comfort of a real straight razor.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yup. Jim, that's exactly what I do.

Although maybe I need to lighten up the pressure and go for more laps. I'm getting a good edge, and can tree top of course, but I think you're getting super sharp results. It motivates me to be patient and try to go further.

That seems to be the route to sharpness with all the methods and stones. Light pressure, and many many laps.

I think the popularity of the nani12 was that it was a fast and easy grinder. You could quickly "get 'er done". But while it shaved, it wasn't a spectacular edge.

I think we are now in a golden age, where tools are available to us where we can approach shavette levels of sharp, while keeping the comfort of a real straight razor.

Sounds good to me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Namkcakram]

Thanks gents.

Nam, when you say wear out the slurry on the jnat, how long should that take? Assume I'm using a hard jnat. And are there "tells" that the stone will give me, to know I'm successfully moving into the finishing stages?

Yes, Jim, I also feel the combo ark is a one stone solution.

But for honing only, not repair or bevel work. Yes, it appears that you can use the soft ark for bevel setting, or as you showed, even for repair, but it appears that it takes something like seven hundred laps to do it.

I made a combo atoma, which is handy. I have an atoma 1200. I recently bought the atoma 400, but I ordered it without the steel backing plate. It comes with a glued back, so I just stuck it onto the steel backside of the 1200. Now I have a combo atoma, for repair with the 400 and bevel setting with the 1200 side.

So I use the atoma 1200 for bevel setting, not the soft ark.


But I think the soft ark is all I need for mid range. I can jump from that atoma 1200 for bevel, to the soft ark for mid range and finish on the black ark. Just three steps.

So with these two combo "stones" I can do it all.

I know that I have to do a lot of laps on the arks. But I don't mind, as it's still simpler and faster than going through a progression of several naniwas or a progression of several naguras on several jnats.

I'm currently struggling/learning on this new jnat. I used my atoma 1200 to raise slurry and raised too thick of a slurry. It dulled the edge, just as if I had honed a sharp razor on a coarse stone. I have to try again, with a much more dilute slurry. And many more laps, to soften the aggressive particles in the slurry. These jnats are stange, as they change in their degree of coarseness and fineness, depending on how you build and work their slurry.

Jim, can you tell me about your honing technique to finish on the black ark? What you do to get the sharpest edge you can? My ark edges are fine, but I don't yet have any edge that gives me a smooth shave in only one pass. That would be pretty cool.

Varies stone to stone how long it takes slurry to start losing it’s cutting ability and also what the “tells” are. If you have a Tsushima Black nagura, it’s got some of the clearest tells I think so it’s an interesting practice stone and my preferred JNAT midrange (and finisher for any hammering chisel). I think on that stone the slurry breaks down to the point of not really cutting and it makes audio and tactile changes.

On my finishers I have a very fine soft nagura that may need multiple slurries on a hard blade, and then two small hard-very hard nagura that just take a long time to feel or notice any change and it’s a lot more subtle. I really don’t know how to describe those except to say I hone for a while and then I sort of get the feeling I’m not really cutting steel anymore so I wipe off the edge and take a look and it’s usually a full mirror bevel or close. From that point I add another couple drops of water and maybe 50 more laps and the bevel looks perfect.

 

[MO1]

That is my experience aswell a hard nagura slurry on a hard jnat takes more time to break down. But I feel like I can take the edge further on that slurry than on a softer nagura slurry, can almost feel no suction even when that slurry breaks down to almost only water.
Would almost say that the absence of feedback feel is what you want on jnats, just smooth, not too light strokes without suction (except if you do water only laps) is what I want at the finishing stage.