Layering: My new (old) lather method

[thombrogan]

I’ve found this method softens my whiskers just as well as washing my face with warm water and soap and then holding a damp facecloth against my whiskers for a few minutes.

Have only used it with a horse hair brush and a badger brush so far, but it was magic with the horse hair and revealed badger hair can hold more water than I realized.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

and revealed badger hair can hold more water than I realized.

You might find that overly washes out the lather on each water layer too, Thom, not just on the soap loading. Not a problem I have had with brushes, but most of mine are smaller. I'm sure you'll get the measure of it soon enough.

 

[Mitzie]

Shaved today using this lather layering technique using Razorock Dead Sea soap without any pre shave. I started with a cold splash to get my whiskers to stand up and did the @AimlessWanderer water soap layering using a synthetic brush and warm water.
A lovely BBS shave, and my conclusion is without doubt that their is something going on here with regard to whisker softening and slickness albeit the lather felt thinner and finer (?). I must try again using a tallow based soap and a badger shaving brush for more water release control. (See my SOTD post for more details of what I used)

 

[Mitzie]

Today shaved with a tallow based soap with a badger brush for better water release control compared with glycerin soap and synthetic brush as per yesterday's post -utilizing the @AimlessWnderer layering technique. Again the shave yielded about the same result as yesterday. No pre shave was used, similarly lather again felt thinner, finer but slick. Practically BBS. -See my post under 'What did you use today...' for more information

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Today shaved with a tallow based soap with a badger brush for better water release control compared with glycerin soap and synthetic brush as per yesterday's post -utilizing the @AimlessWnderer layering technique. Again the shave yielded about the same result as yesterday. No pre shave was used, similarly lather again felt thinner, finer but slick. Practically BBS. -See my post under 'What did you use today...' for more information
View attachment 1738628

Yes, synthetics need slightly different water management to badger. I have used both with glycerine and tallow soaps though, again using this method, and had excellent results.

The great thing about creeping up on the final lather with a little more soap and water, is its so easy to fine tune the process as you go along, to what each soap and brush needs for best results.

 

[Mitzie]

Yes, synthetics need slightly different water management to badger. I have used both with glycerine and tallow soaps though, again using this method, and had excellent results.

The great thing about creeping up on the final lather with a little more soap and water, is its so easy to fine tune the process as you go along, to what each soap and brush needs for best results.

Thanks. -How thick is your lather after layering before commencing to shave? This might depend on whether your using an SR or DE razor?

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks. -How thick is your lather after layering before commencing to shave? This might depend on whether your using an SR or DE razor?

See post No.12 of this thread. That's with a glycerine soap.

A tallow soap may look more opaque, but isn't really much thicker. I use the same lather regardless of razor. If the lather isn't suitable for me to shave with a straight razor, it isn't really suitable for my double edge razor technique either.

I should probably clarify that while I can shave successfully and comfortably with an open razor, I much prefer double edge razors.

 

[Quaznoid]

This seems like a lot of work. I think you’re overthinking it. It’s only shaving, man. Get on w it.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

The same might be applied to 50% of the threads on a shaving forum, yet here we all are...

My floppier brushes didnt work well for me, until I started using this method. Now, I get great shaves from them. This is also helping other shavers on this forum to get better lather, and better shaves. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine.

Besides, while I may have over explained, in order to draw clearer distinctions from other methods, but it's really quite a simple process once understood.

 

[thombrogan]

This seems like a lot of work.

It’s slap on some soap, slap on some water, repeat if wanted/needed. it’s a surefire way of keeping air out of the lather.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

It’s slap on some soap, slap on some water, repeat if wanted/needed. it’s a surefire way of keeping air out of the lather.

Indeed! And a damn good way of effectively lathering through thicker stubble, even with gentler brushes.

 

[Staggers and Jags]

This is something I’ve been playing around with for a little while recently, and wanted to share my progress. Apologies in advance for the long post, but there's a lot to share.

Backstory:

I started toying around with this concept, because of a couple of “floppy” best badger and super badger brushes. They simply didn’t have the backbone for my regular face lathering technique. This was especially the case, with two or more days growth, as they just laid lather on top of the stubble, because they lack the stiffness to work it through the beard to properly cover the skin. I also noticed that once the brush was laden, the brush had even less backbone than it did when empty. So In order to try to get the lower backbone brushes performing better, I decided to try to figure out if they could be used more effectively with far less product in the brush.

Older backstory:

The first synthetic brush I owned was an Omega Hi-Brush. I still have it. It has by far the springiest bristles of any of my synthetics, but I soon learned that it was also a fantastic brush for using with shave sticks, providing I painted only. Attempting to scrub and swirl with it, could fling lather, and leave more on adjacent walls than on my face, but as I can’t scrub or swirl effectively with the floppy badgers either, I decided that using the painting style that I use with the Hi-Brush, might be a good place to start.

Even older backstory:

I learned to shave with a double edge razor, and to lather with soap and brush, in the early '90s. Back before the “benefit” of internet forums, shave vids, or anyone else advising me what to do. I just had to figure it out as I went, and what I did then, was nothing like what most shavers on here tend to do now. However what I did before, bouncing between adding soap and water, worked every single time… because I didn’t stop tweaking until it did work. It was only when I started reading internet forums, that I let the digital realm convince me that collecting all the soap I might need (and often more) for all the passes I intended doing, should all be stuffed into the brush right from the outset.

Abandoning that greedy first load, gave me the final piece of the jigsaw.

________________​

Drawing from those three elements mentioned above, I’m now getting fantastic lathers from my lowest backbone brushes, and my scrubbier brushes perform at least as well as they ever did.. At times, I think they too might be getting better lather than I have had over the last five to ten years.

Here’s what I ended up with…

Method:

I start out with a damp brush, well shaken to get the excess water out. I then start to load as normal… but I don’t load anywhere near enough for a three pass shave. I only load the brush, so there’s barely enough to paint a film of soap on the whole shaving area. Then after painting that on, I dunk the brush. Not just dip the tips, but dunk the whole knot underwater. That’s key to stopping the core of the knot getting gummed up with thick lather. After a gentle shake to dislodge the excess water, I then paint the water that’s left on top of the soap on the face. Dunking again if necessary to cover the whole face. Then I go back to the puck again with the still damp brush, load a little more, and repeat the cycle. All the time, I’m gradually building up layers of soap and water onto the face, while keeping the brush running as lean as possible.

Dunking the whole knot each time I add water, prevents a build up of thick lather deep in the knot, and ensures there’s far more free action to the bristles in the center. As a result, what little backbone is in the brush when dry, remains far more usable while lathering. However, the frequent additions of water also help flush the lather through the stubble, eliminating any dry shadows, and making sure the whole skin area is well lubricated. As such, I’ve had success getting super slick lather, everywhere it needs to be, through three days stubble, with nothing more than painting strokes. No swirling. Even with my floppiest brush.

For the painting strokes, I try to keep the brush close to upright on the face when going against the grain, to try and “sweep” the lather under the hair. When painting with the grain, the brush leans more, pressing the lather through the beard with the side of the knot. That sounds more complicated than it is. In reality, the neutral position of the brush, is that the handle leans slightly away from the knot in the same direction as the hair growth, and then the different approach angle just happens naturally as I paint.

The “building” of the lather all comes from this layering process. A little soap, a little water, a little more soap, a little more water, and so on. As the layers build up, I might need to dunk the knot more than once when painting on the water, to get enough water over the whole shaving area. The first time I add water, the lather is far too wet, and looks like it’s collapsed. More like cloudy water with bubbles in than shaving lather. As a couple more layers are added though, they get less washed out, and the “soup” starts to thicken. The beard penetration and coverage with this method, is far more effective than trying to paint on a bowl of pre-whipped lather, or trying to face lather with a floppy brush.

As soon as the lather is up to thickness/depth, and still has a nice sheen, it’s done. Ready to shave. I tend to use small brushes most of the time (20mm or less), yet on a day’s growth that might only need two or three light layers each of soap and water for me to consider it ready. Heavy growth might need one or two more layers (with my beard, water hardness, etc).

Benefits?

• No whipping, and building, trying to knock air into, or knock air out of the lather.
• No problems with over scrubbing and brush burn – I tested this with my nearly brand new Simpson Case in Pure, on just 17 hours growth. It worked great.
• No dry spots beneath the lather, as the lather keeps getting both flushed and pushed through the beard for full coverage. It took me less than three minutes to fully lather through four days growth with my floppiest brush.
• No huge globs of excess lather wasted down the drain at the end of the shave.

What about my lather bowl/scuttle?

Sorry. This is a face lathering method. While I used to load shaving creams in a lather bowl, and then finish off the lather on the face, I think I’ll just be smearing a little cream on the face, and using this method from now on. That lather bowl may well be redundant now.

Does it take longer?

Slightly. For me, anyway. For others, it might actually be a lot faster. From an empty brush and clean face, to lathered up and ready to shave, might take me two minutes on one day stubble, and maybe a minute and a half longer on heavy stubble.

But what about the second/third pass?

Well having the brush nearly empty, means there might only be enough left in the brush for the first layer of the next pass, and a couple more layers of soap and water might be needed. Which is absolutely fine. Also, with a nearly empty brush, and the bristles working better, and the bulk of the stubble now removed, there’s more chance of getting a bit of a gentle exfoliating scrub now before you start building up the layers again, with those lower backbone brushes. Add a little more soap and water as needed, with no worrying about earlier lather having dried out, or gone cold, and crack on with pass two. The lather for pass two, will be just as warm and just as slick as pass one.

That said, occasionally I have still ended up with enough lather in the brush to not need any more “layers”.

How versatile is it?

Well, I’ve tried this method now with scrubby brushes and floppy, natural and synthetic, hard and soft soaps, less than a day’s growth, and more than three. I’ve used it with shave sticks too, and with little smudges of shaving cream smeared on the cheek. So far, I have had great shaves every single time from this method, no matter which soap or brush. I also think this would be a good technique to have in the toolbox, for when you encounter one of those soaps that doesn’t want to get along with your water hardness.


Conclusions:

I think my days of loading all the soap from the outset, might be over. I’d certainly recommend giving it a try, especially if you have any brushes or soaps that aren’t working well for you with your water hardness and usual lathering methods. It might feel “wrong” at first, but going “back to stupid” with the loading, has certainly brought benefits for me, even if it might take me a minute or two longer to have a shave than before.

 

[Staggers and Jags]

This is something I’ve been playing around with for a little while recently, and wanted to share my progress. Apologies in advance for the long post, but there's a lot to share.

Backstory:

I started toying around with this concept, because of a couple of “floppy” best badger and super badger brushes. They simply didn’t have the backbone for my regular face lathering technique. This was especially the case, with two or more days growth, as they just laid lather on top of the stubble, because they lack the stiffness to work it through the beard to properly cover the skin. I also noticed that once the brush was laden, the brush had even less backbone than it did when empty. So In order to try to get the lower backbone brushes performing better, I decided to try to figure out if they could be used more effectively with far less product in the brush.

Older backstory:

The first synthetic brush I owned was an Omega Hi-Brush. I still have it. It has by far the springiest bristles of any of my synthetics, but I soon learned that it was also a fantastic brush for using with shave sticks, providing I painted only. Attempting to scrub and swirl with it, could fling lather, and leave more on adjacent walls than on my face, but as I can’t scrub or swirl effectively with the floppy badgers either, I decided that using the painting style that I use with the Hi-Brush, might be a good place to start.

Even older backstory:

I learned to shave with a double edge razor, and to lather with soap and brush, in the early '90s. Back before the “benefit” of internet forums, shave vids, or anyone else advising me what to do. I just had to figure it out as I went, and what I did then, was nothing like what most shavers on here tend to do now. However what I did before, bouncing between adding soap and water, worked every single time… because I didn’t stop tweaking until it did work. It was only when I started reading internet forums, that I let the digital realm convince me that collecting all the soap I might need (and often more) for all the passes I intended doing, should all be stuffed into the brush right from the outset.

Abandoning that greedy first load, gave me the final piece of the jigsaw.

________________​

Drawing from those three elements mentioned above, I’m now getting fantastic lathers from my lowest backbone brushes, and my scrubbier brushes perform at least as well as they ever did.. At times, I think they too might be getting better lather than I have had over the last five to ten years.

Here’s what I ended up with…

Method:

I start out with a damp brush, well shaken to get the excess water out. I then start to load as normal… but I don’t load anywhere near enough for a three pass shave. I only load the brush, so there’s barely enough to paint a film of soap on the whole shaving area. Then after painting that on, I dunk the brush. Not just dip the tips, but dunk the whole knot underwater. That’s key to stopping the core of the knot getting gummed up with thick lather. After a gentle shake to dislodge the excess water, I then paint the water that’s left on top of the soap on the face. Dunking again if necessary to cover the whole face. Then I go back to the puck again with the still damp brush, load a little more, and repeat the cycle. All the time, I’m gradually building up layers of soap and water onto the face, while keeping the brush running as lean as possible.

Dunking the whole knot each time I add water, prevents a build up of thick lather deep in the knot, and ensures there’s far more free action to the bristles in the center. As a result, what little backbone is in the brush when dry, remains far more usable while lathering. However, the frequent additions of water also help flush the lather through the stubble, eliminating any dry shadows, and making sure the whole skin area is well lubricated. As such, I’ve had success getting super slick lather, everywhere it needs to be, through three days stubble, with nothing more than painting strokes. No swirling. Even with my floppiest brush.

For the painting strokes, I try to keep the brush close to upright on the face when going against the grain, to try and “sweep” the lather under the hair. When painting with the grain, the brush leans more, pressing the lather through the beard with the side of the knot. That sounds more complicated than it is. In reality, the neutral position of the brush, is that the handle leans slightly away from the knot in the same direction as the hair growth, and then the different approach angle just happens naturally as I paint.

The “building” of the lather all comes from this layering process. A little soap, a little water, a little more soap, a little more water, and so on. As the layers build up, I might need to dunk the knot more than once when painting on the water, to get enough water over the whole shaving area. The first time I add water, the lather is far too wet, and looks like it’s collapsed. More like cloudy water with bubbles in than shaving lather. As a couple more layers are added though, they get less washed out, and the “soup” starts to thicken. The beard penetration and coverage with this method, is far more effective than trying to paint on a bowl of pre-whipped lather, or trying to face lather with a floppy brush.

As soon as the lather is up to thickness/depth, and still has a nice sheen, it’s done. Ready to shave. I tend to use small brushes most of the time (20mm or less), yet on a day’s growth that might only need two or three light layers each of soap and water for me to consider it ready. Heavy growth might need one or two more layers (with my beard, water hardness, etc).

Benefits?

• No whipping, and building, trying to knock air into, or knock air out of the lather.
• No problems with over scrubbing and brush burn – I tested this with my nearly brand new Simpson Case in Pure, on just 17 hours growth. It worked great.
• No dry spots beneath the lather, as the lather keeps getting both flushed and pushed through the beard for full coverage. It took me less than three minutes to fully lather through four days growth with my floppiest brush.
• No huge globs of excess lather wasted down the drain at the end of the shave.

What about my lather bowl/scuttle?

Sorry. This is a face lathering method. While I used to load shaving creams in a lather bowl, and then finish off the lather on the face, I think I’ll just be smearing a little cream on the face, and using this method from now on. That lather bowl may well be redundant now.

Does it take longer?

Slightly. For me, anyway. For others, it might actually be a lot faster. From an empty brush and clean face, to lathered up and ready to shave, might take me two minutes on one day stubble, and maybe a minute and a half longer on heavy stubble.

But what about the second/third pass?

Well having the brush nearly empty, means there might only be enough left in the brush for the first layer of the next pass, and a couple more layers of soap and water might be needed. Which is absolutely fine. Also, with a nearly empty brush, and the bristles working better, and the bulk of the stubble now removed, there’s more chance of getting a bit of a gentle exfoliating scrub now before you start building up the layers again, with those lower backbone brushes. Add a little more soap and water as needed, with no worrying about earlier lather having dried out, or gone cold, and crack on with pass two. The lather for pass two, will be just as warm and just as slick as pass one.

That said, occasionally I have still ended up with enough lather in the brush to not need any more “layers”.

How versatile is it?

Well, I’ve tried this method now with scrubby brushes and floppy, natural and synthetic, hard and soft soaps, less than a day’s growth, and more than three. I’ve used it with shave sticks too, and with little smudges of shaving cream smeared on the cheek. So far, I have had great shaves every single time from this method, no matter which soap or brush. I also think this would be a good technique to have in the toolbox, for when you encounter one of those soaps that doesn’t want to get along with your water hardness.


Conclusions:

I think my days of loading all the soap from the outset, might be over. I’d certainly recommend giving it a try, especially if you have any brushes or soaps that aren’t working well for you with your water hardness and usual lathering methods. It might feel “wrong” at first, but going “back to stupid” with the loading, has certainly brought benefits for me, even if it might take me a minute or two longer to have a shave than before.

ah i understan where i messed up now. i was painting the water on and not going to the puck to get more soap to paint back on. how many swirls do you usually use?

 

[AimlessWanderer]

ah i understan where i messed up now. i was painting the water on and not going to the puck to get more soap to paint back on. how many swirls do you usually use?

No set amount. It depends on the brush. On first load, I just pick up enough to paint a think film all over. Adding water nearly rinses it off. Each successive load seems quicker, yet still leaves the lather thicker. I'll think this over, and try to explain further when my brain is working better

 

[thombrogan]

This method has removed the scritch from my “best badger” and horse hair brushes, but it also increased the comfort and effectiveness of my brush with G5A fiber from @apshaveco and it was already a top knot with my previous way of painting on lather.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I just pick up enough to paint a think film all over.

Thin layer ... damn autocarrot!

To further answer your question, @Staggers and Jags less is better. You'll be going back for more anyway. The main thing is that after every soap and water cycle, the lather should be a little bit thicker than last time.

See post No. 12 in this thread for pics. With a glycerine soap, that was enough (or that's what a glycerine soap looks like when it's up to thickness). With a tallow soap, it might need an extra cycle to be perfect. But it might not, too. To an extent, you can feel the slickness as you're painting it.

General update:
I have noticed that while floppy brushes need their whole knot dunking under water for best results, a scrubby brush doesn't always need that. In fact that might work against you with some brushes. You'll know straight away, if it starts trying to collect all the lather back off your face, that a particular brush might need the core of the knot leaving more full.

Since I started using this technique (again) for the low backbone brushes, I haven't gone back to fully loading any brush I have used. Any lather I can make with a full single load, I can equal or beat with layering. The only brush type I haven't tried it with yet, is my Vulfix Mixed hair brush, but as I first did this boar brushes however many years ago, I have full confidence that would do the biz just as well.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

One more thing just sprang to mind. Sometimes (like today) the lather falls perfect on one of the later soap layers, rather than water layers. As soon as that happens, whichever layer I'm on, I stop.

Just thought I'd add that, in case someone takes this method too literally.

 

[kingfisher]

It’s slap on some soap, slap on some water, repeat if wanted/needed. it’s a surefire way of keeping air out of the lather.

But I think air is one of the three essential components of a good lather...

 

[AimlessWanderer]

But I think air is one of the three essential components of a good lather...

I try to keep air in the lather to an absolute minimum. I find that adding bulk, lessens my awareness of what's happening on the face. If that happens, I can be prone to overshaving. It certainly doesn't add to the slickness for me.

That's why I never bowl lather. I can never get the slickness I want that way, because too much air creeps in.

 

[thombrogan]

But I think air is one of the three essential components of a good lather...

Not for me. It’s the Devil and in a bad way. Lots of water and soap/cream with minimal air is the home of my best shaves. I need as much as possible on my skin and nothing is needed above my skin.